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Posted by: Sheb
« on: June 05, 2011, 06:39:34 AM »

Actually, Terroforming now lies under Infrastructure. The passage in the Charter stating it was under Technology was due to a clerk miscopying it.

Anyway, I think this debate has gone on for long enough. It is no time to fight for power and influence, but time to tame the stars and I'm confident Minister Payne will do his job perfectly, no matter what it might be.

Phan Duc Tho
Posted by: ardem
« on: June 04, 2011, 10:02:40 PM »

Senator Pha Duc Tho, I believe the previous bill for terraforming was ill formed and a such I would be happy to request terraforming being moved away from technology, it made no sense to have it located with them, this is why I believe the multi vote system is flawed, I don't even believe the Technology minister believe it should lie with him.

Cannot rightful support your resolution of all colonised worlds under 10 million, but I could support a bill which state all mining colonies, the minister of commerce has a great amount of power as it controls the transfer of mineral offworld to the home world.

I think patience is in order, there is always a presidential election in 5 years, and dependant who is voted in you may find yourself in a new position.
Posted by: areyoua
« on: June 04, 2011, 06:19:14 PM »

The difference between, for example, terraforming complexes and terraforming components, to which I assume you are referring to isn't only what they are and where they are listed in accounting, its that complexes require workers and components require nothing but a few crew and some ship space those are workers that could be better used to produce installations. In the area of Automated mines, however, I am willing to compromise. Commerce will get to put them wherever it likes, but it will be Infrastructure that decides where the minerals that are produced are sent, and what they will be used for.

Infrastructure does need something. It needs the security provided by the Military, the minerals discovered by Survey, and the Transport capability of Commerce. The first two are obvious, but Commerce, I believe, is slightly more complex. When all the minerals on Earth are expended, where will we go for minerals? Wherever Survey finds minerals, but how will we get the mines necessary and perhaps the colonists there? Freighters. Freighters that are either directly controlled by Commerce or civilian controlled but can be contracted to work for Commerce. For an Infrastructure Minister to not build ships is to deliberately damage the Federation.

I do sense some concern over the uselessness of the Ministry of Commerce, but that concern is simply not to be, well, concerning. the power to designate new colonies for human colonization is something over which I have no sway. While the responsibility to build infrastructure is of the Ministry of Infrastructure, it has and will have no say on where infrastructure should go if I remain in Minister. Therefore, new colonies will be directly under the control of he who moves people and infrastructure, Commerce. Additionally, anything that is built on a ship, such as a Sorium Harvester or Asteroid Miner, is under the power of Commerce and anything produced in that case is the responsibility and privilege of Commerce to utilize.

George Payne
Infrastructure Minister

[ooc]When I say "infrastructure" without a capital "I" I mean infrastructure used to support colonists on hostile planets, not factories, mines, labs, etc.[/ooc]
Posted by: Sheb
« on: June 04, 2011, 05:50:01 PM »

Because what really matter, policy-wise is what something is DOING, not what it is.

Right now, Infrastructures is the only minister that doesn't need anything from another minister for it to work. Military and Survey (and Commerce) need ships. Technology needs labs. What does Infrastructures need? Survey? Well, yes but it's not like a Survey minister can refuse to survey in the same way that an Infrastructues minister can refuse to produce a kind of ship.

No, Infrastructure got too much power right now.

[ooc]More seriously, I'm just pissed off because I choose this minister under the assumption that I'd be directing colonization, sorium harvester etc, and now I realize it is in fact useless.[/ooc]
Posted by: areyoua
« on: June 04, 2011, 05:21:14 PM »

Why is it not a meaningful distinction? Commerce controls the ships, Infrastructure the workers. Crew are on ships but saying that they are the same as workers is tantamount to saying soldiers are the same as farmers and whoever controls one should control the other. Automated mines really require no oversight by anyone, so controlling them is worthless, but controlling where they are to go should be under Infrastructure as it will be the one using the greater portion of the minerals and would know which type of minerals are needed the most. The Ministry of Commerce would then get to decide whether the transport should take place and what priority it should be.

Production outside colonies and planets could be under one command, but unless they are Factories or Shipyards, no input is necessary from a minister, and these two are explicitly stated in the charter as being part of the Ministry of Infrastructure.

The concern that one ministry has more power than another is real, but there are checks and balances inherent in the system of an inter-stellar government. If Infrastructure doesn't build freighters, then no mines get move so no minerals can be exploited outside of established colonies. If Infrastructure doesn't build Military ships, then we are open to an attack that would be devastating to everybody. If Infrastructure doesn't build Survey ships, then no new minerals can be identified. The checks and balances are everywhere. No department can dominate another without considerable penalty to everyone involved.

George Payne
Infrastructure Minister
Posted by: Sheb
« on: June 04, 2011, 04:52:43 PM »

I don't think that this distinction is a meaningful one. Ships have crews as well. And automated mines don't.

We all agree to make a distinction between "real colonies" and mining outpost or sorium harvesting. I think all production outside colonies and planets should be under a single command. I think that it should falls under Commerce, although with much input for Infrastructures.

Currently Infrastructures has too much power, has it choose which ships to build, which sectors to expand and what to produce. Letting other ministries have a degrees of control over it would be for the best.
Posted by: areyoua
« on: June 04, 2011, 04:32:55 PM »

Is the Senate floor to be a quiz show? This really isn't the place to be asking these questions. However, if you really want an answer then I shall give you one. Sorium harvesting should be under commerce because it is done purely by a ship and not by an installation that would be brought to the gas giant. My reasoning lies with the fact that as it is a ministry primarily concerned with directing workers, the Ministry of Infrastructure should not be in the business of commanding ships.

George Payne
Infrastructure Minister
Posted by: Sheb
« on: June 04, 2011, 04:20:11 PM »

And what about Sorium harvesting? Should it be part of Infrastructure or Commerce?
Posted by: areyoua
« on: June 04, 2011, 04:12:14 PM »

Automated Mining Operations was just one example. Another would be an industrial planet with a small population or a world used for holding excess shipyards. Both should obviously be under the Ministry of Infrastructure, but under the current proposal, they would be under the Ministry of Commerce. The point remains that categories for colonies should be strict in order to prevent these and other situations from occurring.

To Dr. Vendar I would say that Mining is very much important to Infrastructure as it will be by far the greatest user of minerals and therefore should be controlled by it. Terraforming would be a largely Commerce Initiative under my plan of seperation as terraforming complexes are large and very difficult to move while terraforming components are relatively easy to move, but the split should remain as Commerce should rule commercial ships and Infrastructure the workers.

It also is, upon some further examination, to late in the month to be proposing new legislation, so I will be waiting until the next legislative cycle to unveil my version of the amendment.

George Payne
Infrastructure Minister
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: June 04, 2011, 04:03:00 PM »

My Honourable Colleague Phan Duc Tho, Minister for Commerce, makes several excellent points.  Certainly, I see no reason why Terraforming should fall under the Ministry of Technology, and I presume the suggestion of such was merely an error on the part of some lowly secretary.  Of the far more sensible suggestion that Terraforming be placed within the Ministry of Infrastructure, it seems to me an unnecessary duplication of resources, given that many colonies - and here I am thinking primarily of mining colonies, both government and civilian - would have very little to do with the conventional responsibilities of the Ministry for Infrastructure.  These colonies, as well as other small specialist outposts, would be largely self-sufficient and lack additional construction assets.  In short, they would not be 'colonies' in the sense we think of them now, valued and contributing populations of our Great Corporation.  Instead, they would simply be offworld extensions of various other ministries responsibilities.

Thus, I lend my support to the suggestion that Terrafoming be transferred to the oversight of the Ministry for Commerce.


Dr. Phineas T. Vendar,
Minister for Technology
Posted by: Sheb
« on: June 04, 2011, 03:56:01 PM »

Automated Mining Operations fall under the same category as Mining Ship and Sorium Harvesting. Now, who control those is open to debate.
Posted by: areyoua
« on: June 04, 2011, 03:53:57 PM »

What about government owned automated mining colonies? They are obviously not going to have any people on them, so they would fall under the purview of Commerce rather than Infrastructure. However, they aren't colonies and would only require the odd transport to move mines there. The point I am trying to bet across is that Senator Tho's proposal is a indeed a good one, but more specific categories are necessary For example, one could have Colonizing Projects that would consist of less than 10 million colonists and no installations except for terraforming complexes which would be controlled by Commerce. In fact, I believe that we should make this an amendment as soon as possible, and I will start writing it up.

George Payne
Infrastructure Minister
Posted by: mavikfelna
« on: June 04, 2011, 12:43:04 PM »

I would second Minister Phan Duc Tho's proposed change.

--Orion Starion
Posted by: Sheb
« on: June 04, 2011, 10:00:38 AM »

I think we need a fundamental redrawing of our colonizing policy. Currently, the task of setting up, maintaining and running colony is split between the minister of infrastructures and the minister of commerce.

I think one ministry should be responsible for terraforming, sending colony ships, requesting infrastructures from the civilian market and managing colony until they are able to stand on their own.

Given all the things the ministry of Infrastructure has to do already, I think the Ministry for Commerce should be in charge (otherwise, I've got nothing to do but order a few freighters and ask to pour money in the civilan lines.) Once the colony reach 10 millions inhabitant, they would fall under the Ministry of Infrastructure's juridiction, while military outpost (small colony used for refuelling and maintaining ships, as well as listening posts) will fall under the Ministry of Military Affair.

Phan Duc Tho, Minister for Commerce and PDG of Spacial Enginnering.
Posted by: ardem
« on: June 04, 2011, 09:45:50 AM »

Which add to why it is important for good debate, those people will read it and hopefully make informed decisions. I think it great for the casual voters, even if some are up for a little mischief.