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Posted by: tryrar
« on: February 12, 2012, 12:42:21 AM »

Just got done finishing fire-testing them, and I'm not sure how good they are since it seems my missiles are substantially outranging my opponent's average AS! The only really large active sensor I've encountered was on a PDC I took out, and the ONLY damage  I took was when I sent my destroyer flotilla in to investigate the planet the PDC was on...and forgot to activate the DL's sensors. Needless to say, I ran into a small minefield and caught a few missiles. Thankfully, I at least know my DLs can take some punishment as he only came of with rather light damage considering there had to be at least 25 munitions(only shaved off a few layers of armor, damaged an engine and PD mount).
Posted by: Arwyn
« on: February 11, 2012, 12:51:27 PM »

Quote from: Hawkeye on February 11, 2012, 10:45:51 AM
Edit: There seems to be a pattern appearing, Arwyn :)

Great minds think alike?  ;D
Posted by: Charlie Beeler
« on: February 11, 2012, 12:45:51 PM »

Some observations on missile defense.  AMM's should not outrange your MFC's ability to engage incoming salvos.  Design your detection sensors and fire controls first and then match the AMM's to make best use of the ranges available.  Remember that AMM's have to able to launcher against incoming missiles at 10seconds range of the target missile.

Make sure to know what your AMM's hit chances are vs the missile speeds you except to encounter.  Remember that you can assign upto 5v1.  With that in mind balance your defensive MFC's to launchers for best effect against the salvo sizes you expect the defend against.  

Example:  if you can only get 20% vs target missiles set your PD at 5v1. If you have 20 launchers you can use 1 MFC to engage salvo sizes of 4 missiles with full coverage.  If you have fewer launchers then you need to be able to engage at greater ranges to acheive the same coverage.  

Beam defense turrets should never to consider your primary missile defense.  In a fleet with AMM's thier job is to engage missiles that leaker past the AMM's.  Design turrets at maximum size per BFC,  multiple turrets assigned to single BFC that could be in a single turret (ie 3 singles vs a single triple) are wasting hull spaces that could be used elsewhere, It's not much but could come in handy.
Posted by: tryrar
« on: February 11, 2012, 12:35:10 PM »

Hmm, I have plenty of space still on the hoplite for more mags so that's not too hard to fix, and yes I do have a dedicated collier/tanker attached to each squadron that goes into engagements with them(armored and shielded to a fare-the-well of course). Also, How did I miss the shield upgrade? No big though, a simple fix
Posted by: Theokrat
« on: February 11, 2012, 11:01:26 AM »

Quote from: tryrar on February 11, 2012, 09:14:38 AM

 :o
The heck? How did that happen? Hold on a sec. . .

Update: When I upgraded the turrets to lighter ones, I also must of corrected this problem, because the designs currently have only 2 pd fire control each. With that point, though, I have a question: given my current setup is it better to have three PD fire controls or am I fine with just 2 I have currently(excepting the Portlands ofc since they only have 4 single turrets)?
Well PD Beam Firecontrolls allow you to engage incoming salvos. If the enemy would launch 6 salvos of 1 missile each round, then you would want 1-turret-1FC combinations. However that might be a bit over the top. For instance I face enemy missiles of 40,000 km/s, which come in packs of ~4. Each of your turrets could be expected to shoot down 0.7 missiles, so it would be wasteful to assign each turret its own FC.

Bottom line: I would go with 2 BFCs controlling 6 towers. When your ships stick together you will be able to engage quite a number of salvos at the same time anyway.

If the hoplite is stay with the other ships it could do with fewer engines.
Posted by: Hawkeye
« on: February 11, 2012, 10:45:51 AM »

I´d go for 3 FCs, simply to be able to better engage multiple smallish missile salvos.
My own rule of thumb is: 1 FC per 3 to 4 barrels, i.e. trippel/quad turrets, each one gets its own FC, twin turrets, two will share a single FC, single turrets I don´t use usually.

Oh, and I just noticed your Hoplite still has Gamma shields fitted, while the Portland and Sigfried have Deltas allready.

And are you sure you need 42 AMM launchers on the Hoplite? Personally I would reduce that to, perhaps, 30 with 10 FCs (if you are set at 3 launchers per FC - I go with 5 launchers per FC, as this is the max you can set your PD to fire at hostile missiles) and increase magazine space further.

Edit: There seems to be a pattern appearing, Arwyn :)
Posted by: Arwyn
« on: February 11, 2012, 10:45:12 AM »

Looking better and better.

The number of launchers IS impressive, the ammo load though, is way to light. You can only get 20 salvos of AMM's off. Thats pretty short for sustained engagements.

If you have a dedicated collier attached to your fleet, that's not horrible.

Your ratio of FC to launchers is dead on, and being able to engage 14 missiles at at time is pretty impressive. But only three minutes of sustained engagement is pretty short. My standard is around 12 minutes.
Posted by: tryrar
« on: February 11, 2012, 10:18:35 AM »

I'll post the designs as they currently stand(I've gotten a lot more advanced since the last posting). I think you guys will love the number of AMM launchers I've managed to cram onto the Hoplite in particular(while still maintaining a decent amount of reloads). Currently, I have 2 full squadrons in service doing a rotating duty at providing JG blockade until I get the next 2 up and running, then I'll start offensive ops.

Code: [Select]
Sigfried class Command Cruiser    16,250 tons     1647 Crew     3442.2 BP      TCS 325  TH 1000  EM 1140
3076 km/s    JR 6-250     Armour 10-57     Shields 38-300     Sensors 40/40/0/0     Damage Control Rating 40     PPV 59.4
Maint Life 7.45 Years     MSP 4972    AFR 70%    IFR 1%    1YR 157    5YR 2360    Max Repair 900 MSP

Extrek YTR4 16k Jump Engine     Max Ship Size 16800 tons    Distance 250k km     Squadron Size 6
Meteor Fusion Engine (10)    Power 100    Fuel Use 60%    Signature 100    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 55.4 billion km   (208 days at full power)
Breastplate Delta Shields (15)   Total Fuel Cost  225 Litres per day

Twin Odin2 Meson Cannon Turret (6x2)    Range 60,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 8-8     RM 6    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Raven 2X PD Targetting (2)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
PB-2 R2 Fusion Plant (3)     Total Power Output 48    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor MR168-R100 (1)     GPS 21000     Range 168.0m km    Resolution 100
Sidewinder 2 Thermal Sensors (1)     Sensitivity 40     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  40m km
H&M2 EM Sensors (1)     Sensitivity 40     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  40m km

ECM 10

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Code: [Select]
Portland class Heavy Cruiser    16,250 tons     1830 Crew     2764.6 BP      TCS 325  TH 1000  EM 750
3076 km/s     Armour 5-57     Shields 25-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 25     PPV 110
Maint Life 6.95 Years     MSP 1595    AFR 140%    IFR 2%    1YR 58    5YR 865    Max Repair 115 MSP
Magazine 1290   

Meteor Fusion Engine (10)    Power 100    Fuel Use 60%    Signature 100    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 46.1 billion km   (173 days at full power)
Breastplate Delta Shields (10)   Total Fuel Cost  150 Litres per day

Single Odin2 Meson Cannon Turret (4x1)    Range 60,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 4-4     RM 6    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Raven 2X PD Targetting (2)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
PB-2 R2 Fusion Plant (1)     Total Power Output 16    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Archer2 Missile Launcher (18)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 30
Archer2 Missile Telemetry (2)     Range 64.7m km    Resolution 100
Apollo 2 ASM (258)  Speed: 27,200 km/s   End: 24.6m    Range: 40.1m km   WH: 5    Size: 5    TH: 226 / 136 / 68

ECCM-1 (2)         ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Code: [Select]
Hoplite class Escort Cruiser    15,750 tons     1680 Crew     3070.6 BP      TCS 315  TH 1100  EM 600
3492 km/s     Armour 5-55     Shields 20-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 10     PPV 101.4
Maint Life 5.97 Years     MSP 1218    AFR 198%    IFR 2.8%    1YR 59    5YR 878    Max Repair 140 MSP
Magazine 842   

Meteor Fusion Engine (11)    Power 100    Fuel Use 60%    Signature 100    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 57.1 billion km   (189 days at full power)
Kiteshield Gamma Shields (10)   Total Fuel Cost  140 Litres per day

Twin Odin2 Meson Cannon Turret (6x2)    Range 60,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 8-8     RM 6    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Raven 2X PD Targetting (2)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
PB-2 R2 Fusion Plant (3)     Total Power Output 48    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Phalanx AMM Launcher (42)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Phalanx2 AMM Telemetry (14)     Range 16.6m km    Resolution 1
Patriot 2 AMM (842)  Speed: 40,000 km/s   End: 1.1m    Range: 2.6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 320 / 192 / 96

Active Search Sensor MR15-R1 (1)     GPS 140     Range 15.4m km    Resolution 1

ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Posted by: tryrar
« on: February 11, 2012, 09:14:38 AM »

Quote from: Theokrat link=topic=4628. msg46527#msg46527 date=1328971510
you do not need more PD Beam Firecontrolls than you have turrets however.  Eg for the hoplite it would be sufficient to have 3 FCs, controlling the 6 twin turrets, maybe even only 2 BFCs.  


 :o
The heck? How did that happen? Hold on a sec. . .

Update: When I upgraded the turrets to lighter ones, I also must of corrected this problem, because the designs currently have only 2 pd fire control each. With that point, though, I have a question: given my current setup is it better to have three PD fire controls or am I fine with just 2 I have currently(excepting the Portlands ofc since they only have 4 single turrets)?
Posted by: Theokrat
« on: February 11, 2012, 08:45:10 AM »

you do not need more PD Beam Firecontrolls than you have turrets however. Eg for the hoplite it would be sufficient to have 3 FCs, controlling the 6 twin turrets, maybe even only 2 BFCs.
Posted by: TheDeadlyShoe
« on: February 10, 2012, 10:37:02 PM »

Those designs are kinda RELLY SLOW.
Which is not necessarily a problem... just be aware you arnt going to be able to run away from... well anything. ^^

Posted by: Thiosk
« on: February 10, 2012, 10:19:25 PM »

Quote from: tryrar on February 10, 2012, 08:39:13 PM
Edit: What would you consider the MINIMUM requirements for an assault transport i. e.  a ship that is expected to go through the teeth of enemy defenses to combat drop large amounts of troops

Oh dear

Well first, what is large numbers of troops?

I *never* fly through enemy fire if I can help it in any way possible.  I always sterilize the sky, then bring in a commercial design troop transport -- capabable of moving a division + replacements, and a drop ship, capable of dropping a division + rep.  A division is 4 sets of 4 units with HQs.

Someone posted a lovely design for an assault shuttle-- a small, craft that presumably lives in a hanger, and combat drops a single batallion.  Fantastic from an RP standpoint, but i'm too lazy to micro all that.

I won't drop troops on enemy planets without space superiority mostly because i want to take them intact with as few casualties as possible, and they WILL NUKE THEMSELVES by targeting your troops until the cows come home.  I have perpetual problems with races pumping FACs out of their shipyards and nuking my troops.  
Posted by: tryrar
« on: February 10, 2012, 08:39:13 PM »

Heh, thanks, and yah, I've made a few turret gear advances since last posting, so I got somewhat smaller turrets now.   Though, I'm probably gonna be fire-testing these designs soon as I discovered I have a very unfriendly next door neighbor.   In fact, had to fast OOB some minelayers to be sure they didn't pour through the jumpgate(two of my starting JPs had jumpgates, go figure)

Edit: What would you consider the MINIMUM requirements for an assault transport i. e.  a ship that is expected to go through the teeth of enemy defenses to combat drop large amounts of troops
Posted by: Arwyn
« on: February 10, 2012, 08:16:27 PM »

Those are looking substantially better. :)

Another recommendation would be research tracking speed increases as soon as you can. Bumping up tracking speed will help you a lot in terms of anti-missile defense with those mesons.

It also helps in your gearing % which is going to help bring down weight of your turrets, letting you mount more of them, or more guns per turret.

Those designs are pretty solid though. Your AMM's are much better with that higher speed.
Posted by: tryrar
« on: February 10, 2012, 03:35:11 PM »

So, taking all that into consideration(plus a few tech upgrades) here's the revised versions:


Code: [Select]
Sigfried class Command Cruiser    16,500 tons     1578 Crew     3531.5 BP      TCS 330  TH 800  EM 900
2424 km/s    JR 5-100     Armour 10-57     Shields 30-300     Sensors 40/40/0/0     Damage Control Rating 30     PPV 51.52
Maint Life 6.07 Years     MSP 5013    AFR 72%    IFR 1%    1YR 233    5YR 3501    Max Repair 1190 MSP

Extrek UX2 16k Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 16500 tons    Distance 100k km     Squadron Size 5
Comet Plasma Drive (10)    Power 80    Fuel Use 70%    Signature 80    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 39.0 billion km   (186 days at full power)
Kiteshield Gamma Shields (15)   Total Fuel Cost  210 Litres per day

Single Odin2 Meson Cannon Turret (2x1)    Range 60,000km     TS: 15000 km/s     Power 4-4     RM 6    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Twin Odin2 Meson Cannon Turret (4x2)    Range 60,000km     TS: 15000 km/s     Power 8-8     RM 6    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Raven 2X PD Targetting (2)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
PB-1 R2 Fusion Reactor (3)     Total Power Output 36    Armour 0    Exp 5%
PB-1 Fusion Reactor (1)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor MR168-R100 (1)     GPS 21000     Range 168.0m km    Resolution 100
Sidewinder 2 Thermal Sensors (1)     Sensitivity 40     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  40m km
H&M2 EM Sensors (1)     Sensitivity 40     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  40m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Code: [Select]
Hoplite class Escort Cruiser    15,450 tons     1595 Crew     3108.8 BP      TCS 309  TH 880  EM 600
2847 km/s     Armour 5-55     Shields 20-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 10     PPV 85.68
Maint Life 5.03 Years     MSP 1258    AFR 190%    IFR 2.7%    1YR 83    5YR 1242    Max Repair 140 MSP
Magazine 504   

Comet Plasma Drive (11)    Power 80    Fuel Use 70%    Signature 80    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 33.3 billion km   (135 days at full power)
Kiteshield Gamma Shields (10)   Total Fuel Cost  140 Litres per day

Twin Odin2 Meson Cannon Turret (6x2)    Range 60,000km     TS: 15000 km/s     Power 8-8     RM 6    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Raven 2X PD Targetting (8)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
PB-1 R2 Fusion Reactor (4)     Total Power Output 48    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Phalanx AMM Launcher (24)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Phalanx2 AMM Telemetry (8)     Range 16.6m km    Resolution 1
Patriot 2 AMM (504)  Speed: 40,000 km/s   End: 1.1m    Range: 2.6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 320 / 192 / 96

Active Search Sensor MR15-R1 (1)     GPS 140     Range 15.4m km    Resolution 1

ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Code: [Select]
Portland class Heavy Cruiser    16,500 tons     1815 Crew     2648 BP      TCS 330  TH 800  EM 600
2424 km/s     Armour 5-57     Shields 20-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 15     PPV 110.8
Maint Life 7.09 Years     MSP 1505    AFR 145%    IFR 2%    1YR 52    5YR 785    Max Repair 115 MSP
Magazine 1290   

Comet Plasma Drive (10)    Power 80    Fuel Use 70%    Signature 80    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 39.0 billion km   (186 days at full power)
Kiteshield Gamma Shields (10)   Total Fuel Cost  140 Litres per day

Single Odin2 Meson Cannon Turret (4x1)    Range 60,000km     TS: 15000 km/s     Power 4-4     RM 6    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Raven 2X PD Targetting (2)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
PB-1 Fusion Reactor (1)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%
PB-1 R2 Fusion Reactor (1)     Total Power Output 12    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Archer2 Missile Launcher (18)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 30
Archer2 Missile Telemetry (2)     Range 64.7m km    Resolution 100
Apollo 2 ASM (258)  Speed: 27,200 km/s   End: 24.6m    Range: 40.1m km   WH: 5    Size: 5    TH: 226 / 136 / 68

ECCM-1 (2)         ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Also, I've designed a couple lighter beam combatants for wolfpacking and general system defense

Code: [Select]
Enterprise class Destroyer Leader    7,900 tons     924 Crew     1385 BP      TCS 158  TH 560  EM 300
3544 km/s     Armour 3-35     Shields 10-300     Sensors 1/40/0/0     Damage Control Rating 5     PPV 55.12
Maint Life 4.84 Years     MSP 548    AFR 99%    IFR 1.4%    1YR 39    5YR 578    Max Repair 115 MSP

Comet Plasma Drive (7)    Power 80    Fuel Use 70%    Signature 80    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 32.5 billion km   (106 days at full power)
Kiteshield Gamma Shields (5)   Total Fuel Cost  70 Litres per day

Zeus2 Particle Beam (2)    Range 150,000km     TS: 4000 km/s     Power 10-4    ROF 15        4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
Twin Odin2 Meson Cannon Turret (4x2)    Range 60,000km     TS: 15000 km/s     Power 8-8     RM 6    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Eagle Eye Targetting (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 4000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Raven 2X PD Targetting (2)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
PB-1 R2 Fusion Reactor (3)     Total Power Output 36    Armour 0    Exp 5%
PB-1 Fusion Reactor (1)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor MR84-R100 (1)     GPS 10500     Range 84.0m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor MR3-R1 (1)     GPS 28     Range 3.1m km    Resolution 1
H&M2 EM Sensors (1)     Sensitivity 40     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  40m km

ECCM-1 (1)         ECM 10

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Code: [Select]
Perseus class Destroyer    7,500 tons     921 Crew     1344 BP      TCS 150  TH 560  EM 300
3733 km/s     Armour 3-34     Shields 10-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 5     PPV 58.96
Maint Life 5.1 Years     MSP 560    AFR 90%    IFR 1.2%    1YR 36    5YR 538    Max Repair 115 MSP

Comet Plasma Drive (7)    Power 80    Fuel Use 70%    Signature 80    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 150,000 Litres    Range 51.4 billion km   (159 days at full power)
Kiteshield Gamma Shields (5)   Total Fuel Cost  70 Litres per day

Zeus2 Particle Beam (4)    Range 150,000km     TS: 4000 km/s     Power 10-4    ROF 15        4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
Single Odin2 Meson Cannon Turret (2x1)    Range 60,000km     TS: 15000 km/s     Power 4-4     RM 6    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Twin Odin2 Meson Cannon Turret (2x2)    Range 60,000km     TS: 15000 km/s     Power 8-8     RM 6    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Raven 2X PD Targetting (2)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
Eagle Eye Targetting (2)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 4000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
PB-1 Fusion Reactor (1)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%
PB-1 R2 Fusion Reactor (3)     Total Power Output 36    Armour 0    Exp 5%

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes