Posted by: ollobrains
« on: February 22, 2012, 07:03:04 PM »a modifiable EM signature perhaps just throwing some random thinking around on this
Posted by: Thiosk
« on: February 22, 2012, 06:21:55 PM »I believe CIWS is essentially already susceptible to jamming, jamming being missiles equipped with ECM devices. CIWS incorporates ECCM, which means the system can counter jamming. Especially the raspberry.
For an active scanning capability, I do not believe CIWS systems are detectable via passive sensors, which I attribute it to the ultrashort range of the ciws system. I don't think CIWS warrants constant EM signature.
For an active scanning capability, I do not believe CIWS systems are detectable via passive sensors, which I attribute it to the ultrashort range of the ciws system. I don't think CIWS warrants constant EM signature.
Posted by: ollobrains
« on: February 22, 2012, 06:18:45 PM »is there any way CIWS can be split into an active and passive system and be susupectible to some form of jamming and boosting technology perhaps expand its elements in gameplay ?
Posted by: Charlie Beeler
« on: February 22, 2012, 05:24:54 PM »I believe what TheDeadlyShoe was pointing at, it that the game does not consider CIWS to have sensors for any other aspect than calculating the weight of the thing.
The sensor is an entirely implicit assumption that is just used to calculated the costs of the system, but not used in battle (i.e you could not detect a sensor boy with CIWS, if you where right on top of it) - see point 4 in the first post of the thread you linked to. Specifically you can never actually spot anything with this implicit sensor, it just serves to justify that a CIWS system will always fire, regardless of the presence of an actual sensor. So if it is actually programmed as CIWS will always fire at incoming missiles, that could include missiles during the first 5 s.
Not exactly. The hs is calculated for a minimum size sensor that would be required to detect missiles in time the the CIWS to engage. To my knowledge Steve has not posted what criteria he has used for this. This most definitely explicit not implicit. Even though this sensor is not available for any other use and does not have a detectable EM signature it still goes through the required detection steps to see inbound missiles. This includes the 5 second exploit.
Back when Steve added this system I was extensively using the 5 second exploit with my fighters and many of the ships engages had CIWS suites and never engage those missiles. With the major change to active sensors that removed resolution 0 and a the degradation of detection of ships larger that the sensor resolution the ability to make use of the exploit with fighters has functionally been eliminated.
I highly doubt that he would have given CIWS a functional all seeing eye against missiles since that type of detection has been a major factor to not have in the game. This actually goes back to our Starfire days.
Posted by: Theokrat
« on: February 22, 2012, 02:20:14 AM »Absolutely wrong. http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,1691.0.html
I believe what TheDeadlyShoe was pointing at, it that the game does not consider CIWS to have sensors for any other aspect than calculating the weight of the thing.
The sensor is an entirely implicit assumption that is just used to calculated the costs of the system, but not used in battle (i.e you could not detect a sensor boy with CIWS, if you where right on top of it) - see point 4 in the first post of the thread you linked to. Specifically you can never actually spot anything with this implicit sensor, it just serves to justify that a CIWS system will always fire, regardless of the presence of an actual sensor. So if it is actually programmed as CIWS will always fire at incoming missiles, that could include missiles during the first 5 s.
Posted by: Charlie Beeler
« on: February 21, 2012, 07:29:34 PM »CIWS do not have conventional sensors, they never do regular sensor detection. they just allocate HS to sensors and automatically fire at errything.
Absolutely wrong. http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,1691.0.html
Posted by: TheDeadlyShoe
« on: February 21, 2012, 05:23:54 PM »Quote
It does not matter if the sensor is built in to a system or is an independent suite. Sensor detection follows movement and is before weapons fire. Point defense final fire can only engage missiles that have been detected. I used this exploit extensively with fighters before the active sensors were rewritten to change how resolution functioned.CIWS do not have conventional sensors, they never do regular sensor detection. they just allocate HS to sensors and automatically fire at errything.
Posted by: Thiosk
« on: February 20, 2012, 10:54:05 PM »Heres a CIWS question for ya:
I want to put some CIWS on orbital habs (it only makes sense).
If alien missiles target the population, despite the fact that they live in the hab, will the CIWS go off?
I want to put some CIWS on orbital habs (it only makes sense).
If alien missiles target the population, despite the fact that they live in the hab, will the CIWS go off?
Posted by: Charlie Beeler
« on: February 20, 2012, 10:35:10 PM »CIWS has its own built in sensors and operates autonomously. IE - still works when you are in Sensor Delay. I ahven't tested it explicitly since I don't typically use CIWS, but I'm pretty sure it works that way from having shot missiles at assaulting NPCs.
It does not matter if the sensor is built in to a system or is an independent suite. Sensor detection follows movement and is before weapons fire. Point defense final fire can only engage missiles that have been detected. I used this exploit extensively with fighters before the active sensors were rewritten to change how resolution functioned.
CIWS is the result of a 'discussion' from a few years ago about reducing the hullspace size of Gauss Cannon. I'm the one that started that discussion. It is nothing for than reduced GC in a turret with an intigrated res1 active sensor and beam firecontrol. It still follows all the rules/code for beam turrets/beam fire control set to final fire(self defense).
Posted by: ollobrains
« on: February 20, 2012, 07:55:49 PM »anyone that does test us let us know how it pans out
Posted by: TheDeadlyShoe
« on: February 20, 2012, 07:50:13 PM »Quote
CIWS does not function any better than any other system, it's at the mercy of the same exploit of the sequence of play.CIWS has its own built in sensors and operates autonomously. IE - still works when you are in Sensor Delay. I ahven't tested it explicitly since I don't typically use CIWS, but I'm pretty sure it works that way from having shot missiles at assaulting NPCs.
Posted by: MehMuffin
« on: February 20, 2012, 07:38:19 PM »What if you were to have one massive ship armed with large amounts of rapid fire CIWS, carrying a large group of fighters armed with mesons to act as additional PD and attack? If you overdid the shields and armor and CIWS, it would be awfully hard to damage the mothership, do the AIs limit their missile attacks against specific targets to avoid wasting ordnance?
Posted by: xeryon
« on: February 20, 2012, 07:36:11 PM »I feel slightly proud of myself as an extremely novice player that I did pick up on the 5 second missile travel & turn sequence loophole.
Posted by: Charlie Beeler
« on: February 20, 2012, 06:10:52 PM »Brian is correct. It's a function of the sequence of play. Sensor detection is at the end of the main movement phase. Weapons fire, including missile launch, is at the end of the turn. At the beginning of the next turn is movement and final defensive fire against any missiles that will hit thier targets...before sensors are resolved. This creates a single 5 second impulse where missiles could be launched and hit without any chance of intercept. This is well know to veteran players. It is very difficult to actually use though. CIWS does not function any better than any other system, it's at the mercy of the same exploit of the sequence of play.
Posted by: TheDeadlyShoe
« on: February 20, 2012, 02:13:01 PM »Quote
This translates to your beam point defense will NEVER fire on a missile during those 1st 5 seconds.I believe CIWS still works. One of its advantages in jump assaults.
