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Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 27, 2012, 05:17:05 AM »

About the sensors missile search and FC. . .  I actually thought of the ECM thingy there and they I would like to upgrade the search sensor at earliest opportunity and I wanted to have a fire control which I could keep for a while.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 27, 2012, 05:12:02 AM »

Ok, so basically the long range missile then so it can hit other bigger types of targets at that range.

The missile FC has a longer range since it need to be able to target things OTHER than missiles, so it should have the same range as the missiles which is about 6m-km.  So the missile fire control can either engage missiles or other vessels further out.  My missiles will all be the long ranged ones.

Here is a ship with this system on it.

Code: [Select]
Praetor class Frigate    15 000 tons     1240 Crew     1648.04 BP      TCS 300  TH 250  EM 0
1666 km/s     Armour 4-54     Shields 0-0     Sensors 24/12/0/0     Damage Control Rating 6     PPV 65.97
Maint Life 2.45 Years     MSP 412    AFR 300%    IFR 4.2%    1YR 95    5YR 1419    Max Repair 86 MSP
Magazine 249   

Hyperdyne class Nuclear Engine (n) (20)    Power 25    Fuel Use 90%    Signature 12.5    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 350 000 Litres    Range 46.6 billion km   (324 days at full power)

Tr/M2a-n12 10cm Baal Laser turret (3x2)    Range 90 000km     TS: 12000 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 3    ROF 5        3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Tr/M2a-n12 Wedge class turret (2x4)    Range 20 000km     TS: 12000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 2    ROF 5        1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
pd/G16-F12 Loomis class CIWS (3x4)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
m/B64a-T09 Polar class FC (1)    Max Range: 128 000 km   TS: 9000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 37 30 22
pd/B16a-T12 Raptor class FC (2)    Max Range: 32 000 km   TS: 12000 km/s     69 37 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

M1-OLM Missile launcher (12)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
m/H59-S06 Kouda class mFC (1)     Range 5.9m km    Resolution 1
mpm/S01-N06 Viper class missile (249)  Speed: 12 500 km/s   End: 8m    Range: 6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 87 / 52 / 26

s/ASS-R60-N33 Nimda search sensor (1)     GPS 4320     Range 33.5m km    Resolution 60
m/AMS-R01-N04 Zone search sensor (1)     GPS 72     Range 4.3m km    Resolution 1
Sn/SSTH-08a N-03-24 (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24m km
Sn/SSEM-06a G-02-12 (1)     Sensitivity 12     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  12m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

The Preator class Frigate is the Terrans first real military ship.  It is mainly a patrol ship with a decent sensor package and survivability.  It is not meant to actually combat the enemy but it could act as an escort to other ships if it is necessary.
Posted by: HaliRyan
« on: June 27, 2012, 03:43:06 AM »

Quote from: Theokrat on June 27, 2012, 02:28:43 AM
You will likely find that the logistics of keeping both Vipers and Reapers is not really worth it. The performance characteristics are just way to similar. The designated AMM can hit a target that is moving 10k km/s with 22.5% likelihood- while the MPM can hit it with 21.6% likelihood - just 0.9% less likely. If you really find a reason for a 6m km missile, you might as well make it the standard range of your AMMs. The 0.9% less hitchance is a small price to pay for greatly reduced logistics, research effort etc.

Also remember that firecontrolls and missile launchers can be freely assigned to each other, even during combat. Since you want to go for integrated ships, you will likely have further reaching firecontrolls anyway. These can be linked to the size-1 missile launchers. In other words, if you wish to have a "secondary" anti-ship missile that can be launcher from the size-1 launchers, you can increase the range beyond the maximum range of the smaller FCs without much of a problem.

You active search sensor is too small (or your FCs are too big). There is no point in having FCs that go further than the search sensor can see, as you can't engage targets that are not "illuminated" anyway.

Agree for the most part, but disagree with the bolded part. Enemy ECM will degrade your MFC range but not your active sensor range, so having FCs that go farther than your search sensor can often be a very good thing.
Posted by: Theokrat
« on: June 27, 2012, 02:28:43 AM »

You will likely find that the logistics of keeping both Vipers and Reapers is not really worth it. The performance characteristics are just way to similar. The designated AMM can hit a target that is moving 10k km/s with 22.5% likelihood- while the MPM can hit it with 21.6% likelihood - just 0.9% less likely. If you really find a reason for a 6m km missile, you might as well make it the standard range of your AMMs. The 0.9% less hitchance is a small price to pay for greatly reduced logistics, research effort etc.

Also remember that firecontrolls and missile launchers can be freely assigned to each other, even during combat. Since you want to go for integrated ships, you will likely have further reaching firecontrolls anyway. These can be linked to the size-1 missile launchers. In other words, if you wish to have a "secondary" anti-ship missile that can be launcher from the size-1 launchers, you can increase the range beyond the maximum range of the smaller FCs without much of a problem.

You active search sensor is too small (or your FCs are too big). There is no point in having FCs that go further than the search sensor can see, as you can't engage targets that are not "illuminated" anyway.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 27, 2012, 02:10:11 AM »

Ok, this is my current design that I might go for. . .

Viper class AMM (anit-missile missile)
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 1    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 18
Speed: 12500 km/s    Endurance: 3 minutes   Range: 2.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.6583
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 225%   3k km/s 72%   5k km/s 45%   10k km/s 22.5%
Reaper class MPM (multi-purpose missile)
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 1    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 17
Speed: 12700 km/s    Endurance: 8 minutes   Range: 6.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.6375
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 215.9%   3k km/s 68%   5k km/s 43.2%   10k km/s 21.6%
Size 1 missile launcher
Code: [Select]
Maximum Missile Size: 1     Rate of Fire: 10 seconds
Launcher Size: 1 HS    Launcher HTK: 0
Cost Per Launcher: 6    Crew Per Launcher: 10
Missile fire control
Code: [Select]
Active Sensor Strength: 36   Sensitivity Modifier: 60%
Sensor Size: 3 HS    Sensor HTK: 1
Resolution: 1    Maximum Range vs 50 ton object (or larger): 6 480 000 km
Range vs Size 6 Missile (or smaller): 705 672 km
Range vs Size 8 Missile: 1 036 800 km
Range vs Size 12 Missile: 2 332 800 km
Chance of destruction by electronic damage: 100%
Cost: 36    Crew: 15
Missile search sensors
Code: [Select]
Active Sensor Strength: 72   Sensitivity Modifier: 60%
Sensor Size: 6 HS    Sensor HTK: 1
Resolution: 1    Maximum Range vs 50 ton object (or larger): 4 320 000 km
Range vs Size 6 Missile (or smaller): 470 448 km
Range vs Size 8 Missile: 691 200 km
Range vs Size 12 Missile: 1 555 200 km
Chance of destruction by electronic damage: 100%
Cost: 72    Crew: 30
So. . .  I want to have the option of fire missiles both against smaller crafts and missiles with this system.  If I can fit it all into the ship that is, I will have to experiment with it a little.  About 2/3 of the missiles will be AMM and 1/3 will be MPM.

Posted by: HaliRyan
« on: June 26, 2012, 08:56:51 PM »

Quote from: Jorgen_CAB on June 26, 2012, 06:23:16 PM
As for missiles I'm still trying to figure things out.  Now, regarding missiles. . .  i did notice that the search sensors have much lower detection range of missiles than my missile fire controls.  How do you usually designs a good AMM system.  I know I should have a size one missile and with my current tech these are not too impressive.

AMMs are almost always size one like you've said. Typically you want minimal fuel, minimal warhead, tons of speed, and a bit of agility. There was an excellent guide to missiles of every type written a while back, but I can't for the life of me find it. Maybe someone else will remember?

As for the search sensor vs missile fire control range, MFCs need to be one third the size of a corresponding search sensor to match ranges with the same resolution.

At your current tech (I'm assuming it's nuclear thermal or so?) the designs you've listed seem fairly reasonable, although you've probably built a larger sensor than you need; 500kkm should be plenty of detection range at that tech.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 26, 2012, 06:23:16 PM »

My Destroyer will certainly get as stealth as possible AND as fast engines I can give them and still have them pack some serious punch.  I was thinking of going with the particle beam line, I do have some nice Energy Weapon researchers.   ;D

As for missiles I'm still trying to figure things out.  Now, regarding missiles. . .  i did notice that the search sensors have much lower detection range of missiles than my missile fire controls.  How do you usually designs a good AMM system.  I know I should have a size one missile and with my current tech these are not too impressive.

AMM - Viper class
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 1    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 20
Speed: 11000 km/s    Endurance: 3 minutes   Range: 2.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.6833
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 220%   3k km/s 60%   5k km/s 44%   10k km/s 22%
Materials Required:    0.25x Tritanium   0.1733x Gallicite   Fuel x25
Now, a search sensor with resolution 1 that can see a size six or smaller missile will take about. . .

Code: [Select]
Active Sensor Strength: 300   Sensitivity Modifier: 60%
Sensor Size: 1250 Tons    Sensor HTK: 1
Resolution: 1    Maximum Range vs 50 ton object (or larger): 18,000,000 km
Range vs Size 6 Missile (or smaller): 1,960,200 km
Range vs Size 8 Missile: 2,880,000 km
Range vs Size 12 Missile: 6,480,000 km
Chance of destruction by electronic damage: 100%
Cost: 300    Crew: 125
Materials Required: 75x Duranium  225x Uridium
So, any advise for this?
Posted by: Person012345
« on: June 26, 2012, 05:28:09 PM »

My first missile warship in my current game weighed in at about 12,000 tons, and 3 of them pretty much wiped out an entire races navy single handedly. From conventional start.
Posted by: HaliRyan
« on: June 26, 2012, 05:17:50 PM »

Quote from: Jorgen_CAB on June 26, 2012, 03:27:39 PM
In support of the cruisers I will have destroyer hunter packs, whose main job it is to sneak behind the enemy lines and attack their supply line or civilian ships if necessary, these ships will range in the size of 15-20k perhaps larger depending on technology and how easy it is for me to keep them stealthy, if it's even possible?

Keeping them stealthy shouldn't be too big a problem. The main techs involved are the cloaking line and engine thermal output reduction, both in the defensive systems group.

Thermal reduction is pretty straightforward and you'll see it when designing an engine. Smaller thermal sig per engine means it's harder for them to spot your emissions. You can also slow your task group down to artificially lower their thermal emissions if you suspect a big ol' passive sensor to be nearby.

Cloaking has 3 techs once you unlock it - Efficiency, Sensor Reduction, and Minimum Size. Efficiency lets a smaller cloak affect a bigger ship, and sensor reduction reduces your effective size to enemy sensors (so a 90% reduction on a 20kt ship would result in it appearing 2kt to any active sensors in range). For a 15-20k ship you won't need to worry about minimum size.

Oh, and if you're trying to stay stealthy, remember to turn off your own active sensors! Those things scream your location to anyone nearby.
Posted by: Theokrat
« on: June 26, 2012, 03:38:41 PM »

Quote from: Jorgen_CAB on June 26, 2012, 03:27:39 PM
I'm certainly going to experiment with it a little.  My calculations about the efficiency of the sensors is that adding to the size of the sensor at the same time you increase the resolution to the double mean that you will be able to get really good range and coverage with your sensors.  If you also place them in a staggered way throughout your fleet with larger resolution sensors on the larger hull size ships and smaller resolutions on the small ships you will get a very good umbrella of sensor coverage, including passive sensor bubbles.

I'm only theorising so far. . .  :) . . . I'm about to design my very first Frigate line of warships.  This will basically be my smallest "real" combat warship at about 10k tones.  The one below them will be colony defence gunboats at maybe 1-2k in size or so (short range missile equipped ships).
The frigates are basically my main patrol vessels and not there to actually combat any enemy real combat groups.  My main fleet assets will be my cruisers, each group will be two light cruisers (30-40k size) and a heavy cruiser at 50-60k.  The cruisers will be the backbone of my early fleets while later they will form my main picket for my super carriers 100k+.  At least this is what the Terran admirals is dreaming of in the night. . .  ;)
In support of the cruisers I will have destroyer hunter packs, whose main job it is to sneak behind the enemy lines and attack their supply line or civilian ships if necessary, these ships will range in the size of 15-20k perhaps larger depending on technology and how easy it is for me to keep them stealthy, if it's even possible?
Well I found raiders survive best by superiour speed, rather than a low profile. Lot's of engines, fuel and sensors (passive thermal ones I like best), and a single, tiny beam weapon...
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 26, 2012, 03:27:39 PM »

I'm certainly going to experiment with it a little.  My calculations about the efficiency of the sensors is that adding to the size of the sensor at the same time you increase the resolution to the double mean that you will be able to get really good range and coverage with your sensors.  If you also place them in a staggered way throughout your fleet with larger resolution sensors on the larger hull size ships and smaller resolutions on the small ships you will get a very good umbrella of sensor coverage, including passive sensor bubbles.

I'm only theorising so far. . .  :) . . . I'm about to design my very first Frigate line of warships.  This will basically be my smallest "real" combat warship at about 10k tones.  The one below them will be colony defence gunboats at maybe 1-2k in size or so (short range missile equipped ships).
The frigates are basically my main patrol vessels and not there to actually combat any enemy real combat groups.  My main fleet assets will be my cruisers, each group will be two light cruisers (30-40k size) and a heavy cruiser at 50-60k.  The cruisers will be the backbone of my early fleets while later they will form my main picket for my super carriers 100k+.  At least this is what the Terran admirals is dreaming of in the night. . .  ;)
In support of the cruisers I will have destroyer hunter packs, whose main job it is to sneak behind the enemy lines and attack their supply line or civilian ships if necessary, these ships will range in the size of 15-20k perhaps larger depending on technology and how easy it is for me to keep them stealthy, if it's even possible?
Posted by: HaliRyan
« on: June 26, 2012, 01:05:15 PM »

Quote from: Jorgen_CAB on June 26, 2012, 11:52:10 AM
What would the practical application of the transponders actually be in the game?

Mostly it's for RP, the only truly practical application I know of for transponders is for multiplayer or multi-faction games.

Quote from: Jorgen_CAB on June 26, 2012, 11:52:10 AM
Regarding the active sensors I have plans to use a about four different levels of sensors on different kinds of ships.  The larger the ship doing the searching the more levels of sensors they will get.  My basic idea would be a size 3-4 sensor with resolution 60, size 4-5 sensor with resolution 120, size 5-6 sensor with resolution 240 and a really large one later on to search for really bug ships at vast distances with size 6-7 with resolution 480. 

This would obviously be in addition to missile scanners at resolution 1 and passive scanners.

Would this be a useful strategy at all?

It's certainly one way of doing it, although you may find you're better off with a single large sensor than having four separate sensors for different craft sizes. Especially at higher tech levels. That said, if you make a sensor-based command ship you'll definitely want a bunch of different-sized sensors.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 26, 2012, 11:52:10 AM »

What would the practical application of the transponders actually be in the game?

Regarding the active sensors I have plans to use about four different levels of sensors on different kinds of ships. The larger the ship doing the searching the more levels of sensors they will get.   My basic idea would be a size 3-4 sensor with resolution 60, size 4-5 sensor with resolution 120, size 5-6 sensor with resolution 240 and a really large one later on to search for really bug ships at vast distances with size 6-7 with resolution 480.   

This would obviously be in addition to missile scanners at resolution 1 and passive scanners. 

Would this be a useful strategy at all?

My frigates (8000-12000 tones) who will do most of the scouting will be relatively large and designed very defensively and act alone most of the time. Possibly in pairs if they are in hotspots or probably relieved by heavier battle groups that use smaller crafts for scouting, such as shuttle crafts mounted in large heavy cruisers (30000-50000 tones). 
Posted by: sloanjh
« on: June 26, 2012, 08:44:00 AM »

Quote from: Jorgen_CAB on June 26, 2012, 08:37:39 AM
Ok, so I need to have good missile scanners. . .  understood!
Don't forget they'll need to be resolution 1 in order to have decent range against missiles.
Quote
Now, does it have to be the ships itself of can it be another ship or even ships from another "Task Group" (as long as you track the missile all the way I guess).
You need an active contact from somewhere (can be any platform anywhere in system) in order to fire at anything.  You need a fire-control system on the ship that will be firing for each target you want to fire at in the impulse you fire.  So a ship with 4 FC can fire at 4 separate targets every 5 seconds, but requires another ship (or by an active sensor on itself) to have an active contact with each of those 4 ships.  A ship with 4 active sensors can't fire at anything (unless it has fire control), but can spot target for other ships (who need on-board FC in order to be able to shoot).
Quote
Another question. . .  lot's of them now.  What does the Transponders on the ship actually do?
I can activate and deactivate them, I suppose they have something to do with EM detection or not, but what function do they have in the game?
Broadcast to everyone that you're there, without requiring them to detect you with sensors.

John
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 26, 2012, 08:37:39 AM »

Ok, so I need to have good missile scanners. . .  understood!

Now, does it have to be the ships itself of can it be another ship or even ships from another "Task Group" (as long as you track the missile all the way I guess).

Another question. . .  lot's of them now.  What does the Transponders on the ship actually do?
I can activate and deactivate them, I suppose they have something to do with EM detection or not, but what function do they have in the game?