Posted by: Person012345
« on: June 29, 2012, 12:49:25 PM »I'm not really seeing how this would benefit the game. It just seems like yet another component to research.
Posted by: TheDeadlyShoe
« on: June 29, 2012, 11:56:22 AM »I responded to the thread twice 
Sorry about that.
Bear in mind that shipyard retooling also scales with the difference between classes. So even if you need to retool, similarity in ship design keeps retooling costs down.
Sorry about that.
Quote
Or if i have a frigate with the same engines, magazine size and sensor size but have upgrade sensor performance and weapon performance, I cannot build this as the same class.It all depends on the cost differential. There's several methods to making ships more shipyard cross-compatible. For civilian ships, faster ships tend to be more cross-compatible because non-engine components are a smaller proportion of ship cost. Sensor and weapon upgrades at the same time are pretty significant.
Bear in mind that shipyard retooling also scales with the difference between classes. So even if you need to retool, similarity in ship design keeps retooling costs down.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 29, 2012, 01:36:19 AM »I'm still pretty aware that there is a retooling effect in the game but it is not the same as designing a new ship type/class and all the time it will take before you can lay down that first hull. Retooling is something you must do at every naval yard every time you want to produce another ship type there.
I would also think that the prototyping/designing of the ship should be a research project and not a naval yard retooling effort. In my view you could do the research at the same time you perform the retooling. So it will not necessarily take more time but you would have to consider both time AND research. As you would in reality.
My suggestion were more of a reality sake than a game balance sake. I have seen many comment on these forums of features being included for the sake of reality, so why not consider this if it could easily be included without adding much additional micromanagement. One more research project for a single ship is not that much extra you have to do.
Sure, research will take a little longer... personally I don't see anything wrong in that in principle. I like when things take a long time.
I would also think that the prototyping/designing of the ship should be a research project and not a naval yard retooling effort. In my view you could do the research at the same time you perform the retooling. So it will not necessarily take more time but you would have to consider both time AND research. As you would in reality.
My suggestion were more of a reality sake than a game balance sake. I have seen many comment on these forums of features being included for the sake of reality, so why not consider this if it could easily be included without adding much additional micromanagement. One more research project for a single ship is not that much extra you have to do.
Sure, research will take a little longer... personally I don't see anything wrong in that in principle. I like when things take a long time.
Posted by: ardem
« on: June 28, 2012, 11:25:30 PM »I think there is an issue in building similar ships, 20% change effect is not really good enough, many time I have built a Cargo ship and troop ship with exactly the same engines and sensors etc. But they don't show up in the same class even if I imagine them as the same hull layout and design.
Or if i have a frigate with the same engines, magazine size and sensor size but have upgrade sensor performance and weapon performance, I cannot build this as the same class.
I think some things should be weighted in the ship design / class window.
Or if i have a frigate with the same engines, magazine size and sensor size but have upgrade sensor performance and weapon performance, I cannot build this as the same class.
I think some things should be weighted in the ship design / class window.
Posted by: sloanjh
« on: June 28, 2012, 09:19:11 PM »It just seems redundant with retooling. Both slow down the introduction of a new class and make it more expensive. Since we already have that, what's the point? If you want new class introductions slowed down yet more, you could just increase the retooling penalty.
My recollection is that the retooling delay/cost was intended to include prototyping costs.
John
Posted by: TheDeadlyShoe
« on: June 28, 2012, 03:31:28 PM »I really dont see how prototyping would serve a different purpose from retooling; theyre both time and resource based limits on your ability to build a new ship.
And the researching components thing is bad enough; it's rare indeed that you will build a new ship out of off-the-shelf components.
And the researching components thing is bad enough; it's rare indeed that you will build a new ship out of off-the-shelf components.
Posted by: crys
« on: June 28, 2012, 01:50:37 PM »ok i like this idear a little more.
what about retooling of shipyards? can you do this while the delay is running?
and some values seem high - thouse 120k tons for terraformer are just 4 terraforming modules.
maybe the number of systems should be part of the delay calculation. i would not count the number of engeneering spaces here.
for commercial maybe
size*#systems/(shipyard build rate*10)?
this would reduce the delay for ships with fewer systems - big systems - and would increase the delay for complicates ships with lots of systems
edit: TheDeadlyShoe is not so wrong either, there is already a huge delay with retooling of shipyards - except for the first tooling.
what about retooling of shipyards? can you do this while the delay is running?
and some values seem high - thouse 120k tons for terraformer are just 4 terraforming modules.
maybe the number of systems should be part of the delay calculation. i would not count the number of engeneering spaces here.
for commercial maybe
size*#systems/(shipyard build rate*10)?
this would reduce the delay for ships with fewer systems - big systems - and would increase the delay for complicates ships with lots of systems
edit: TheDeadlyShoe is not so wrong either, there is already a huge delay with retooling of shipyards - except for the first tooling.
Posted by: TheDeadlyShoe
« on: June 28, 2012, 01:48:25 PM »It just seems redundant with retooling. Both slow down the introduction of a new class and make it more expensive. Since we already have that, what's the point? If you want new class introductions slowed down yet more, you could just increase the retooling penalty.
Posted by: Hawkeye
« on: June 28, 2012, 01:12:19 PM »I kinda like the idea of prototypes.
We could allways go the Starfire way.
From what I have read ( I have never played the game), the first ship of a new class takes a lot longer to build than the serial building afterwards. That additonal time could reflect the tinkering needed to make all parts work well together. Of course, in Starfire there also seem to be huge fleets roaming the spacelines, so the build-time increase could probably be reduced a bit.
That would get rid of having to research a new ship-class.
Or how about a delay between locking a design in the design window and actually being able to build it? Perhaps based on mass for commercial and mass/PPV for military ships.
Throwing out some numbers here:
Something like Mass/500 for commercial and Mass/500 x (PPV+20)/10 for military vessels. This would lead to:
40.000 ton freighter 80 days delay
120.000 ton terraformer 240 days delay
2.000 ton geo-survey 4 days delay
--> probably add a minimum delay of, say, 30 days
Orion Class DD (10k, PPV 36) 112 days delay
Cerberus Monitor (9k, PPV 48) 122.4 days delay
Enterprise Class CV (48k, PPV 0) 192 days delay
Eridani Class CG (15k, PPV 114) 402 days delay
All military ships are from Steve´s Space Race game.
The Eridani CGs delay seems a bit much, but keep in mind it is armed with 4 20cm UV-Lasers and 150 Box-Launchers, so there are a lot of systems to get along with each other.
We could allways go the Starfire way.
From what I have read ( I have never played the game), the first ship of a new class takes a lot longer to build than the serial building afterwards. That additonal time could reflect the tinkering needed to make all parts work well together. Of course, in Starfire there also seem to be huge fleets roaming the spacelines, so the build-time increase could probably be reduced a bit.
That would get rid of having to research a new ship-class.
Or how about a delay between locking a design in the design window and actually being able to build it? Perhaps based on mass for commercial and mass/PPV for military ships.
Throwing out some numbers here:
Something like Mass/500 for commercial and Mass/500 x (PPV+20)/10 for military vessels. This would lead to:
40.000 ton freighter 80 days delay
120.000 ton terraformer 240 days delay
2.000 ton geo-survey 4 days delay
--> probably add a minimum delay of, say, 30 days
Orion Class DD (10k, PPV 36) 112 days delay
Cerberus Monitor (9k, PPV 48) 122.4 days delay
Enterprise Class CV (48k, PPV 0) 192 days delay
Eridani Class CG (15k, PPV 114) 402 days delay
All military ships are from Steve´s Space Race game.
The Eridani CGs delay seems a bit much, but keep in mind it is armed with 4 20cm UV-Lasers and 150 Box-Launchers, so there are a lot of systems to get along with each other.
Posted by: crys
« on: June 28, 2012, 01:01:02 PM »how much research did you have in mind for prototyping?
beam fire controls go quickly over 10k research.
about retooling, atm you can build in a colony classed shipyard, cargo ships of the same size. im not sure how it exactly works.
about military shipyards, im not sure how much you can change on a ship disign without retooling, sometimes i forgot something small and it worked.
upgrading military ships designs can be importand, because newer components can be smaller(armor/turrets/sensors/...) and therefor increase youre speed-> decrease enemy ships hit chances
beam fire controls go quickly over 10k research.
about retooling, atm you can build in a colony classed shipyard, cargo ships of the same size. im not sure how it exactly works.
about military shipyards, im not sure how much you can change on a ship disign without retooling, sometimes i forgot something small and it worked.
upgrading military ships designs can be importand, because newer components can be smaller(armor/turrets/sensors/...) and therefor increase youre speed-> decrease enemy ships hit chances
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 28, 2012, 11:11:23 AM »Regarding the research that would surely be a balance issue, not even sure it would be a huge issue to be honest.
Regrading retrofit I don't believe you need to do anything with that mechanic at all. A retrofit is more of an engineering problem just changing some of the structure or changing out components. Retrofitting is pretty expensive and time consuming as it is, no real need to change that in my opinion.
I really think prototyping would be a rather straightforward and intuitive change and would at least introduce an additional strategic level not just more complexity for complexities sake. At least that is my opinion.
In my opinion it would also solve the issue that bigger hulls are more efficient I/O wise to build over the long run. With this change you really need to think hard about what those really big ships actually should do and will dissuade you from building ten different type of battleship hull variations thus making smaller ships as useful in the long run once you have very big naval yards. Now, my experience with the game is rather limited so my analysis of this additional benefit might actually be a non issue.
Regrading retrofit I don't believe you need to do anything with that mechanic at all. A retrofit is more of an engineering problem just changing some of the structure or changing out components. Retrofitting is pretty expensive and time consuming as it is, no real need to change that in my opinion.
I really think prototyping would be a rather straightforward and intuitive change and would at least introduce an additional strategic level not just more complexity for complexities sake. At least that is my opinion.
In my opinion it would also solve the issue that bigger hulls are more efficient I/O wise to build over the long run. With this change you really need to think hard about what those really big ships actually should do and will dissuade you from building ten different type of battleship hull variations thus making smaller ships as useful in the long run once you have very big naval yards. Now, my experience with the game is rather limited so my analysis of this additional benefit might actually be a non issue.
Posted by: crys
« on: June 28, 2012, 08:28:13 AM »ok it is propably not a bad idear to prototyp ships.
i just worry a little here, that the game gets more and more complicated.
i usualy like complicated games more, most games today get much to simple.
i see also some game problems with researching ships here.
when you need to research each ship first, where should the research go?
there is allready a lot of research going on in construction, you want to slow down the research anymore?
specialy with military ships, it is already a lot of reseach to build a beam ship, expencive research.
what about minor upgrades/changes, i think most of us have done mistakes with ship design.
armored turrets can get much smaller with just one gear research, new armor or shields.
its nice to upgrade a frighter or colony ship with new cargo handling.
should all of thouse upgrades need new research for prototyping again?
i think i wouldnt mind so much to prototyp comercial ships, but military ships already take so long to develop.
i would like to add a few things about prototyping in general too.
first i need to add, that i dont have much knowledge about prototyping, but i think i know some of the main reasons to do prototyps.
one is propably safty, since there are no exidents for ships in this game(crashes/hit by objects in space), there is little reason to test safty features. in addition all ships have an armor hull of 1 - which is strong enough to block a nuclear explosion of the strength of 1.
another main reason for prototyping is aerodynamics, which is not compleatly understood today, so testing different shapes is necessary. but in aurora all thouse ships are in space - where airodynamics do not apply.
im not so sure about the movement principles in auroa, think someone said before, there is some kind of energy field around ships - idk - maybe here are reasons for prototyping or not.
i think prototyping is a question about the understanding of the applied physics, if thouse are understood and mastered.
then it should be more a question about computing, instead of inovation.
edit: it propably looks like i want to block this idear, i just see alot of problems with this.
maybe we should point out thouse problems and maybe search solotions.
i just worry a little here, that the game gets more and more complicated.
i usualy like complicated games more, most games today get much to simple.
i see also some game problems with researching ships here.
when you need to research each ship first, where should the research go?
there is allready a lot of research going on in construction, you want to slow down the research anymore?
specialy with military ships, it is already a lot of reseach to build a beam ship, expencive research.
what about minor upgrades/changes, i think most of us have done mistakes with ship design.
armored turrets can get much smaller with just one gear research, new armor or shields.
its nice to upgrade a frighter or colony ship with new cargo handling.
should all of thouse upgrades need new research for prototyping again?
i think i wouldnt mind so much to prototyp comercial ships, but military ships already take so long to develop.
i would like to add a few things about prototyping in general too.
first i need to add, that i dont have much knowledge about prototyping, but i think i know some of the main reasons to do prototyps.
one is propably safty, since there are no exidents for ships in this game(crashes/hit by objects in space), there is little reason to test safty features. in addition all ships have an armor hull of 1 - which is strong enough to block a nuclear explosion of the strength of 1.
another main reason for prototyping is aerodynamics, which is not compleatly understood today, so testing different shapes is necessary. but in aurora all thouse ships are in space - where airodynamics do not apply.
im not so sure about the movement principles in auroa, think someone said before, there is some kind of energy field around ships - idk - maybe here are reasons for prototyping or not.
i think prototyping is a question about the understanding of the applied physics, if thouse are understood and mastered.
then it should be more a question about computing, instead of inovation.
edit: it propably looks like i want to block this idear, i just see alot of problems with this.
maybe we should point out thouse problems and maybe search solotions.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 28, 2012, 07:53:01 AM »That would seem pretty reasonable, but it might perhaps come with a slight increase in time as long as the prototype is not finished. Perhaps a +10-20% inefficiency until the research is done or something.
Posted by: jseah
« on: June 28, 2012, 06:32:59 AM »You should probably be allowed to retool shipyards to the new class when they are being researched.
So we have the prospect of a slow step by step process or a hurried rush where weapons/components are crash researched and produced, the ship design finalized, and the yard tooled all in parallel.
So we have the prospect of a slow step by step process or a hurried rush where weapons/components are crash researched and produced, the ship design finalized, and the yard tooled all in parallel.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 28, 2012, 05:41:37 AM »I really think that this idea could be added to the code with relative ease since it would use much of the existing mechanics.
One thing I would contemplate here is to allow research on both individual components and the ship hull at the same time, although this would probably require a bigger change in the code. So there would be two options in my opinion.
Option 1
Once you finished a designed and locked it in the Design View it is created as a research project. You can not start building the ship until you have actually researched the prototype. Once the research is done you can immediately build as many copies of the ship as you want to.
Option 2
As soon as you designed a component in the Create Research Project page it is immediately selectable in the design screen but listed in a different color (perhaps red) to distinguish that it is not yet a functional piece of equipment. If you design a ship using a component that you have not yet researched and you lock the design you may no longer delete these components from the research menu and must be researched together with the prototype before you can start building the ship.
An added bonus with option two would be that it is now easier to experiment with not yet researched equipment just to get a feel for how different ship configuration would look like.
One thing I would contemplate here is to allow research on both individual components and the ship hull at the same time, although this would probably require a bigger change in the code. So there would be two options in my opinion.
Option 1
Once you finished a designed and locked it in the Design View it is created as a research project. You can not start building the ship until you have actually researched the prototype. Once the research is done you can immediately build as many copies of the ship as you want to.
Option 2
As soon as you designed a component in the Create Research Project page it is immediately selectable in the design screen but listed in a different color (perhaps red) to distinguish that it is not yet a functional piece of equipment. If you design a ship using a component that you have not yet researched and you lock the design you may no longer delete these components from the research menu and must be researched together with the prototype before you can start building the ship.
An added bonus with option two would be that it is now easier to experiment with not yet researched equipment just to get a feel for how different ship configuration would look like.
