Posted by: alex_brunius
« on: October 31, 2012, 06:41:41 AM »Thanks for the tutorial in two stage missile design Theokrat, I found it very useful
First off, my updated missiles and bases.
Detecting PDC.Code: [Select]Espalmador class Planetary Defence Centre 2 000 tons 82 Crew 476.6 BP TCS 40 TH 0 EM 0
Armour 14-14 Sensors 1/315 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 0
Active Search Sensor MR189-R100 (1) GPS 31500 Range 189.0m km Resolution 100
This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 1 sections
Code: [Select]Victoria class Planetary Defence Centre 6 250 tons 1032 Crew 952 BP TCS 125 TH 0 EM 0
Armour 5-30 Sensors 1/0 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 96
Magazine 312
Fuel Capacity 50 000 Litres Range N/A
PDC Size 24 Missile Launcher (4) Missile Size 24 Rate of Fire 90
Missile Fire Control FC189-R100 (1) Range 189.0m km Resolution 100
This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 3 sections
Code: [Select]Missile Size: 24 MSP (1.2 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Submunitions
Speed: 10000 km/s Endurance: 83 minutes Range: 50.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 14.696
Second Stage: Size 4 Anti-ship Missile x4
Second Stage Separation Range: 49 000 000 km
Overall Endurance: 3 hours Overall Range: 162.5m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 100% 3k km/s 30% 5k km/s 20% 10k km/s 10%
Materials Required: 5x Tritanium 0.096x Uridium 8.478x Gallicite Fuel x10000Code: [Select]Missile Size: 4 MSP (0.2 HS) Warhead: 5 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
The reason I do not use a drone for delivery is because I have really bad drone engines as of yet, I want the package to at least probably approach the enemy.
Speed: 21000 km/s Endurance: 89 minutes Range: 112.5m km
Thermal Sensor Strength: 0.024 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 24 000 km
Cost Per Missile: 2.674
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 210% 3k km/s 70% 5k km/s 42% 10k km/s 21%
Materials Required: 1.25x Tritanium 0.024x Uridium 1.182x Gallicite Fuel x3750
Drones will always be slow, but if you have them detach 20 million+ km away from the enemy they should be well outside of enemy PD range and you can use the faster payloads to approach.I don't even have nuclear pulse for my drones yet, while the missiles have Ion drive, when I have extra time to tech up the drones to the current level (which will be after I am at the next stage of engines, I will of course update the design to use drones but as of now, I don't want any considerable loss of performance if the enemy fleet is retreating which currently would be the case.
The reason I do not use a drone for delivery is because I have really bad drone engines as of yet, I want the package to at least probably approach the enemy.Drones will always be slow, but if you have them detach 20 million+ km away from the enemy they should be well outside of enemy PD range and you can use the faster payloads to approach.
Espalmador class Planetary Defence Centre 2 000 tons 82 Crew 476.6 BP TCS 40 TH 0 EM 0
Armour 14-14 Sensors 1/315 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 0
Active Search Sensor MR189-R100 (1) GPS 31500 Range 189.0m km Resolution 100
This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 1 sections
Armed PDCVictoria class Planetary Defence Centre 6 250 tons 1032 Crew 952 BP TCS 125 TH 0 EM 0
Armour 5-30 Sensors 1/0 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 96
Magazine 312
Fuel Capacity 50 000 Litres Range N/A
PDC Size 24 Missile Launcher (4) Missile Size 24 Rate of Fire 90
Missile Fire Control FC189-R100 (1) Range 189.0m km Resolution 100
This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 3 sections
Planetary Defence MissileMissile Size: 24 MSP (1.2 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 10000 km/s Endurance: 83 minutes Range: 50.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 14.696
Second Stage: Size 4 Anti-ship Missile x4
Second Stage Separation Range: 49 000 000 km
Overall Endurance: 3 hours Overall Range: 162.5m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 100% 3k km/s 30% 5k km/s 20% 10k km/s 10%
Materials Required: 5x Tritanium 0.096x Uridium 8.478x Gallicite Fuel x10000
SubmunitionsMissile Size: 4 MSP (0.2 HS) Warhead: 5 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 21000 km/s Endurance: 89 minutes Range: 112.5m km
Thermal Sensor Strength: 0.024 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 24 000 km
Cost Per Missile: 2.674
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 210% 3k km/s 70% 5k km/s 42% 10k km/s 21%
Materials Required: 1.25x Tritanium 0.024x Uridium 1.182x Gallicite Fuel x3750
The reason I do not use a drone for delivery is because I have really bad drone engines as of yet, I want the package to at least probably approach the enemy. Hitchances are just one aspect. Think about it in terms of “expected damage”, i. e. the product of hitchance and the warhead. You are very much likely better off by emphasising the warhead more.Here's apparently me misreading again, I thought that it was distance, not speed. I feel kind of silly now.
Your missile is 107% sure to hit a target moving 10k km/s. Of course hitchances are gets capped at 100%, so you waste a bit of missile space already. The argument becomes even more critical when applied to more likely target. Say you encounter an enemy moving 5k km/s, then you would have a hitchance of 214% - way over the top!
If you post your tech specifics I could run a little simulations to determine a likely best missile. I would need your engine, warhead, agility and fuel efficiency techs, along with your enemies observed best speed.Engine is 3 per MSP, Warhead is 5, agility is 64, and fuel efficency is 0. 6 thermal sensor is 0. 3 if thats important.
The ICBMs that are available at the start of the game are of size 24 thats why I want to use that size, I was thinking of maybe doing a multiple warhead version of it however were there are maybe 3-9 second stage missiles instead would that be a better alternative?
Yes I was under the assumption that hit chances were extremely important.
Why is the speed of 10 k km/s important, do I have too fast missiles or is it something else?
Oh, thats nice, I'm guessing that the sensor might not need to be a combatant station either. But does one need any passive sensors on PDC ever?
That's also very nice, I'm guessing that that reload will be automatically as fast or faster than any other reload, is that a correct assumption?
The range is because of me misreading numbers , the warhead will be fixed in the revision, I just have no real idea of what scale damage comes in in an ordinary fight.
Will the sensors target other ships automatically if necessary and why would one use thermal and not EM or Active sensors? Agility will also be fixed in upcoming revision.
I have no idea where you got the idea for size 24 missiles. Any missile larger than size 9 that isn't a drone/buoy just isn't worth it and is overkill at best. It also has a rather terrible range for a ASM and the enemy could easily stay outside your missile range and fire his own missiles and with a warhead of only 5 it's impotent at best.The ICBMs that are available at the start of the game are of size 24 thats why I want to use that size, I was thinking of maybe doing a multiple warhead version of it however were there are maybe 3-9 second stage missiles instead would that be a better alternative?
If you want to keep this ridiculous size, reduce engine space for warhead and fuel space. Even then it wouldn't be very good as the reload speed would still be the same.
The PDC can only fire 3 missiles at once and with a 90s reload speed, it'd be dead after only one launch especially with it's paper-thin armour.
I believe you are misguided in thinking hit chances were extremely important. Smaller missiles in larger quantities can be better. See this thread for an analysis on missile sizes, see this thread: hxxp: aurora2. pentarch. org/index. php/topic,4926. 0. htmlYes I was under the assumption that hit chances were extremely important.
Besides, you won't meet NPR's with full sized 10k km/s ships until a very long time. Unless you meet one of the spoilers.
If you are planning to build more than one PDC on the planet you could use two different designs, one with a sensor, one without. Basically, you only need one active sensor on the planet, and building multiple ones wastes precious resources. Preferably the PDC with the sensor should be more heavily armoured.Oh, thats nice, I'm guessing that the sensor might not need to be a combatant station either. But does one need any passive sensors on PDC ever?
Your PDC has a relatively large magazine capacity. Note that you can reload from populations (unless your PDC is under ground attack), so there is little reason to keep more ordinance than required for one reload in the PDC itself. This could significantly reduce the costs of the PDC.That's also very nice, I'm guessing that that reload will be automatically as fast or faster thaqn any other reload, is that a correct assumption?
Your missile has several shortcomings. The range is way too low – merely 12. 5m km wont get you anywhere. You can try to match that range to your firecontrolls’ range of 189m km. The Warhead is way too small too. I would expect a strength 5 warhead on something like an early size-4 missile. Certainly a size-24 missile should have something like a strength 25 warhead at early tech. It would also be nice to add a small sensor (maybe 0. 05 thermal). This would allow excess missiles that remain after a target is destroyed to engage another target. Seeing how large your missiles are, this a comparatively small investment while allowing great returns (it would be a waste to produce much of an overkill with so huge missiles). The thing that is is probably overpower on the missiles is agility. 39 is pretty high even for most AMMs, I find ASMs should have something in the range of 11-15 agility most of the time.The range is because of me misreading numbers , the warhead will be fixed in the revision, I just have no real idea of what scale damage comes in in an ordinary fight.
Is this a good or a bad PDC, also I'm thinking that as the planetary sensors exist, I needn't worry about Thermal or EM sensors, is that a correct assumption?If you are planning to build more than one PDC on the planet you could use two different designs, one with a sensor, one without. Basically, you only need one active sensor on the planet, and building multiple ones wastes precious resources. Preferably the PDC with the sensor should be more heavily armoured.
/Zorbeltuss
Espalmador class Planetary Defence Centre 6 350 tons 881 Crew 1144.6 BP TCS 127 TH 0 EM 0
Armour 5-30 Sensors 1/315 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 72
Magazine 504
PDC Size 24 Missile Launcher (3) Missile Size 24 Rate of Fire 90
Missile Fire Control FC189-R100 (1) Range 189.0m km Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor MR189-R100 (1) GPS 31500 Range 189.0m km Resolution 100
This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 3 sections
With the missilesMissile Size: 24 MSP (1.2 HS) Warhead: 5 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 39
Speed: 27500 km/s Endurance: 8 minutes Range: 12.5m km
Cost Per Missile: 12.975
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 1072.5% 3k km/s 351% 5k km/s 214.5% 10k km/s 107.2%
Materials Required: 1.25x Tritanium 28.35x Gallicite Fuel x2500
Development Cost for Project: 1298RP
Is this a good or a bad PDC, also I'm thinking that as the planetary sensors exist, I needn't worry about Thermal or EM sensors, is that a correct assumption?