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Posted by: Bgreman
« on: November 30, 2013, 01:20:57 PM »


The wiki also says 50.  I am getting the impression that the size lists in this thread are the result of bad math.  The 125 size was what I had an issue with.  50 I can deal with, but this thread has some very wonky information.

The wiki is correct.
Posted by: Ghidorah
« on: November 30, 2013, 06:40:31 AM »

I'm glad that the verbal (typed actually) sparring match is winding down.        This part of the game is just a bit silly for me in the first place.         Lets go back to the M1 Abrams MBT, which I got a great view of when it was being tested at Ft Hood (yes, I am that old).         Just imagine that vehicle going anywhere on the Moon or Mars or Venus?  No oxygen for the crew or motor, No Problem.          A world with no Atmospheric pressure or a 90 Earth Atmospheric pressure world, No Problem.     -250 to 850 degree (F) heat, still No Problem.       Old conventional Infantry and Armor in my gamed universe just stay home.         To be phased out when enough true space-worthy troops have come into play.       

P. S.       - I had a brother in law that did Fuel convoys in the first Gulf War.         Logistics - Food and Fuel are crazy for a Battalion sized unit, Imagine just how many tankers it takes to keep an ACTIVE division going for a month.         At least on earth they didn't have to bring their own Oxygen with them, eh?

And Gwyn ad Nud's question got answered, so that is a good thing.   

And Hyena got over the 10 Post hurdle, so that is cool too!  
Posted by: alex_brunius
« on: November 30, 2013, 05:44:48 AM »

You just seem to have some misconceptions about what tonnage actually is. Which is fine, most people don't have to worry about tonnage as a concept and it looks at a glance like it is related to short tons or metric tons, when it is in fact not.

Not really. I understand that ton/tonnage can be anything from a short ton of 907kg, up towards a GRT volume of 2.832 m3. When speaking of freight ton or displacement tonnage volumes you are closer to 1m3 though.

Even if it was not apparent in my posts, I have run these numbers before and come to the conclusion that with the amount of other uncertainty and speculation that is automatically involved in any debate such as this, it actually does not really matter much which one you use.

Especially so here in Aurora since the volume is irrelevant for all other purpose except armor calculations (which makes it irrelevant for most freight and transport ships), and we can be fairly sure that ton refers to weight/mass of the ships.

For weight/mass you have a maximum uncertainty of 10%, and for volume it is a bit bigger at up to 2.8 times if you use things like GRT freight volumes. For military equipment you also end up close enough for them to even be interchangeable weight/mass <-> volume. Tanks will have a bit higher density and Humvee/trucks lower (even if the truck is fully loaded with 5-10tons cargo), but the end result is close enough to ensure we don't end up even one factor wrong.

It will not be possible to get anywhere close to this good accuracy on how much the total weight or volume of a military division is anyways. For example it would be easy to argue that the US armed forces has 1110k active personnel (navy excluded) and that with 15 active divisions each such division has a divisional slice of 74'000 men that actually needs to be transported!

And as already pointed out we don't know what a "low-tech" division actually is, but we can probably also assume that they have a whole lot of extra equipment needed to operate in a no-atmosphere environment aswell since they are capable of that in Aurora!

Don't be obtuse. The point was that if you look at the number of tanks in the entire US military (as was listed at your wiki link), and then divide that into the US armor divisions, you will get an artificially high average. You would be taking all of the tanks in every other division that uses them (marines, infantry) and 'giving' them to the armor divisions and inflating their numbers. Math.

No I was listing all US divisions, including infantry and marine divisions in the count of 15. So that is where this misunderstanding was.

Though at this point I am skeptical that you actually averaged anything, I think when you said 'average' you meant 'guess.'

6,344 M1 Abrams MBT / 15 total divisions of all types = roughly 422 M1 per division (rounded to 400).

You are right, they are just armor divisions. See how easy it is to admit you were wrong about something without getting snarky and combative?

Sorry, the trigger was your comment on that these numbers are "ridiculous." when in fact they are quite reasonable for a modern mechanized division.

Perhaps we just use different language here since you seem to think 50 is OK but 125 was ridiculous. In interpret the wording ridiculous as something like factor 1000 wrong, not factor 2.5 :)

Anyway, Narmio is right, this is a pointless discussion since the entire reason the subject was brought up was due to some faulty numbers. I'm quite happy with the numbers as they are. I just think the game could do a better job relaying the information necessary to transport ground units.

This I think we can agree on :)  
(with the caveat that I think armored or assault/heavy divisions should require significantly more transport capacity compared to say garrisons or infantry)
Posted by: Hyena
« on: November 29, 2013, 07:53:09 PM »

My point was that it does not matter if you use volume (regardless of what tonnage measure) or weight in tons, because as I think I have proven by now a modern division is not something easilly transported regardless, especially the armored ones.

Your definition of 'proof' seems to be rather different from mine. And nobody said that it was 'easy' to move a military division. You just seem to have some misconceptions about what tonnage actually is. Which is fine, most people don't have to worry about tonnage as a concept and it looks at a glance like it is related to short tons or metric tons, when it is in fact not.

Quote
"Trying to average the number of Abrams tanks in the entire US military is not going to tell you how many tanks are in a heavy armored division, because the heavy armored divisions are not the only divisions that use them. The marines also use them. Infantry divisions use them as well, just in fewer numbers. If you look at the actual heavy armored divisions, they use between 100 and 250."

I am also a big fan of your math here Hyena, If your "heavy armor" divisions have less then the number of tanks averaged then this can logically only mean two things:
A. The majority of tanks are not in use in any division, or
B. Lighter divisions have more tanks then your "heavy armor" divisions have.

Don't be obtuse. The point was that if you look at the number of tanks in the entire US military (as was listed at your wiki link), and then divide that into the US armor divisions, you will get an artificially high average. You would be taking all of the tanks in every other division that uses them (marines, infantry) and 'giving' them to the armor divisions and inflating their numbers. Math.

Though at this point I am skeptical that you actually averaged anything, I think when you said 'average' you meant 'guess.'

Quote
As an interesting point I can also say that there never have been (and probably never will be) something called a heavy armor division by any nation that I know of.

You are right, they are just armor divisions. See how easy it is to admit you were wrong about something without getting snarky and combative?

Anyway, Narmio is right, this is a pointless discussion since the entire reason the subject was brought up was due to some faulty numbers. I'm quite happy with the numbers as they are. I just think the game could do a better job relaying the information necessary to transport ground units.
Posted by: alex_brunius
« on: November 29, 2013, 07:07:11 PM »

My point was that it does not matter if you use volume (regardless of what tonnage measure) or weight in tons, because as I think I have proven by now a modern division is not something easilly transported regardless, especially the armored ones.

"Trying to average the number of Abrams tanks in the entire US military is not going to tell you how many tanks are in a heavy armored division, because the heavy armored divisions are not the only divisions that use them. The marines also use them. Infantry divisions use them as well, just in fewer numbers. If you look at the actual heavy armored divisions, they use between 100 and 250."

I am also a big fan of your math here Hyena, If your "heavy armor" divisions have less then the number of tanks averaged then this can logically only mean two things:
A. The majority of tanks are not in use in any division, or
B. Lighter divisions have more tanks then your "heavy armor" divisions have.

As an interesting point I can also say that there never have been (and probably never will be) something called a heavy armor division by any nation that I know of.
Posted by: Narmio
« on: November 29, 2013, 02:45:59 PM »

Chill out guys, this isn't really all that necessary. I think you might be arguing over minutiae that have very, very little to do with the game any more. Don't move low-tech units around and you'll be fine - a 10-battalion transport is a little smaller than a standard 25,000t freighter, and only slightly more expensive to build.  Also, low-tech units are terrible at everything anyway - they are to real ground units what  ICBM bases are to a TN missile frigate.
Posted by: Hyena
« on: November 29, 2013, 02:20:24 PM »

Quote from: alex_brunius link=topic=6486.   msg67344#msg67344 date=1385727397
I'm using the averages here. . .   

Take a look at the list of vehicles here and divide the number of vehicles on the around 15 US divisions fielded:
hxxp: en. wikipedia. org/wiki/List_of_currently_active_United_States_military_land_vehicles

Trying to average the number of Abrams tanks in the entire US military is not going to tell you how many tanks are in a heavy armored division, because the heavy armored divisions are not the only divisions that use them. The marines also use them. Infantry divisions use them as well, just in fewer numbers. If you look at the actual heavy armored divisions, they use between 100 and 250.   

Quote
Please don't claim I am wrong when it's clear you didn't even bother to check the numbers for your own claim yourself.   

A single prime mover (truck) would take up a volume of 2. 5*5*25 = 312. 5m^3 volume or 110 tonnage (GRT) volume. That's far more then its empty weight in tons. Is it less for a tank? Yes around half volume GRT, but most vehicles are not tanks and would be about equal in GRT and tons being somewhere between a tank and a truck in density.   

It doesn't matter if you use volume or weight, a modern mechanized division will take up loads of both to move.   

I did check. I checked your numbers on the tanks and they were pretty obviously using weight instead of tonnage. The rest didn't matter for reasons I got to later.   

Also I am not sure what truck dimensions you are using, but the US army's most common transport is the M35 which has dimensions of 2. 4m*2. 8m*7. 0m, which is only 10. 979 Gross Tonnage (from 47. 04m^3). You chose to use GRT, which is awkward because a) it is extremely complicated to determine the fill space of a truck, and b) it's not really used anymore. I doubt very much Steve is using GRT for his tonnage scales. I ran through the formula for a truck of the size you described, just for the sake of it, and you're looking at 76. 5 GT. Which is still significant, except that the truck itself is comprised mostly of storage space and would themselves likely be carrying the majority - if not all - of the supplies required by the division. Ie, they would not unload the trucks.   

Just for the record, I checked the GT of an Abrams tank and it's only 17. 6. I used the hull dimensions (rounded up) because the gun doesn't prevent the tanks from lining up (the gun can occupy the space of the tank in front of it, so only the hulls actually determine tonnage). So yeah, not that much.   

Quote
Your failing to account for that to carry stuff you need a container around it and an ability to drive it on-off like ramps and some clearance.   
To carry heavy stuff in space you need really heavy containers and heavy duty ramps.   
Also we have not even started on how much crew accommodation space 15'000 soldiers in aurora would need, we are talking about transporting them for months here, aurora even displays how many ton per man you need.   

I am not neglecting those things. I by no means feel that the tonnage represented should be accounted for ton by ton. Half of the module tonnage, however, is a silly amount to set aside for things other than cargo capacity. Fortunately, as I said, this turned out to not be the case.   

Quote
We also only talked about the weight/volume of vehicles, nothing about weight/volume of supplies (for months) and ammo (which a normal artillery piece can consume tons of in a single day of combat).   

The majority of which can occupy the same tonnage as the cargo trucks. So while they would technically increase the weight, in terms of space required (which is what tonnage is), it's a non-issue.   

Quote
Ok, then I am going to argue that the size of a low tech tank division is certainly far too low.   
For infantry without much vehicle or heavy gun support those numbers might work.   

It might be low if Steve is using GRT. I doubt he is, because it would be impossible to calculate for everything, he'd just be making up numbers. GRT is not widely used and is best at determining the space occupied by grain and other materials which 'fill' an area. The GRT of a ship for purposes of transporting grain is different from the GRT of a ship for purpose of transporting crates, for example.    In this case, the GRT for transporting people, trucks, tanks, crate cargo, are all different, so which one is Steve using? He's probably not using GRT at all. At least with GT you can get a consistent measure. In either case, though, go for it. I think you're wrong, though.   

Quote from: Rolepgeek link=topic=6486. msg67355#msg67355 date=1385749437
Can we not forget that A. Tonnage in this does not necessarily correspond to actual weight or volume, since it affects the speed, but it also affects the size of shipyard necessary, and it isn't seperate measurements? B. That a good deal of that tonnage is going to support personnel, integration with the rest of the ship, infrastructure within the module itself, etc. ? And C. If I remember correctly, Aurora Brigades are supposedly 500 men, but it's also really fancy and high-tech equipment like, presumably, power armor and things of that nature. Meaning it's barely 5 tons per man, and for their support personnel, equipment, and vehicles.   

What do you mean by 'tonnage in this?'

Tonnage is what it is. In real life ships and trucks are impacted by the weight of their cargo as well, it just has nothing to do with tonnage. Tonnage tells you how much 'stuff' you can fit into a volume of cargo space. The mass of the cargo doesn't impact that at all. It does impact speed, but that's irrelevant to whether or not a lot of trucks and vehicles will fit into a space.   

As for B, I agree. Some amount of the tonnage the module occupies would need to be dedicated to life support and other systems. But I can't imagine someone designing a module where half of the module was trying to keep the other half alive. That would be wildly inefficient. But as I noted, that isn't the case, so it's moot point.   

As for C, I also agree. Though I am not sure we agree on the implication. More advanced technology would generally lead to fewer vehicles, smaller/lighter arms, and less gear in general. For example, since the development of MANPADs (shoulder-mounted AA), AA vehicles have played a smaller and smaller role in the military. AA vehicle numbers have declined substantially because a smaller, more efficient, less vulnerable option is available on the front lines. More advanced man-portable gear means fewer vehicles needed to fill that role, and far less tonnage needed to transport them. I think that becomes especially true when you are talking about transporting marines around in space ships, where vehicles may not be practical.   

That said, I am not sure what Steve means by 'low tech infantry' in Aurora. Whether that is essentially modern (contemporary) military technology, or something more advanced but pre-TN technology.   
Posted by: Rolepgeek
« on: November 29, 2013, 12:23:57 PM »

Can we not forget that A. Tonnage in this does not necessarily correspond to actual weight or volume, since it affects the speed, but it also affects the size of shipyard necessary, and it isn't seperate measurements? B. That a good deal of that tonnage is going to support personnel, integration with the rest of the ship, infrastructure within the module itself, etc.? And C. If I remember correctly, Aurora Brigades are supposedly 500 men, but it's also really fancy and high-tech equipment like, presumably, power armor and things of that nature. Meaning it's barely 5 tons per man, and for their support personnel, equipment, and vehicles.
Posted by: alex_brunius
« on: November 29, 2013, 06:16:37 AM »

I disagree that half the tonnage when using the absolute worst-case scenario(heavy armor division) 'adds up well.

I'm using the averages here...

Take a look at the list of vehicles here and divide the number of vehicles on the around 15 US divisions fielded:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_currently_active_United_States_military_land_vehicles

I didn't bother to check your other numbers, mostly because it's clear you were thinking in terms of weight, but that's all irrelevant anyway.  

Please don't claim I am wrong when it's clear you didn't even bother to check the numbers for your own claim yourself.

A single prime mover (truck) would take up a volume of 2.5*5*25 = 312.5m^3 volume or 110 tonnage (GRT) volume. That's far more then its empty weight in tons. Is it less for a tank? Yes around half volume GRT, but most vehicles are not tanks and would be about equal in GRT and tons being somewhere between a tank and a truck in density.

It doesn't matter if you use volume or weight, a modern mechanized division will take up loads of both to move.

It is failing to account for half of the available space.

Your failing to account for that to carry stuff you need a container around it and an ability to drive it on-off like ramps and some clearance.
To carry heavy stuff in space you need really heavy containers and heavy duty ramps.
Also we have not even started on how much crew accommodation space 15'000 soldiers in aurora would need, we are talking about transporting them for months here, aurora even displays how many ton per man you need.

We also only talked about the weight/volume of vehicles, nothing about weight/volume of supplies (for months) and ammo (which a normal artillery piece can consume tons of in a single day of combat).


.  .  .   because it's actually 2500 tons (of volume) to transport a 5 size ground unit (a battalion).   Which makes it 2500 tons for 1000 soldiers, roughly.   Which I think is perfectly fair.   Two tonnage per soldier with 500 left over for vehicles and supplies.   It was the reported size of 125 per division that was making the numbers go all wonky when the math was done backwards.

Ok, then I am going to argue that the size of a low tech tank division is certainly far too low.
For infantry without much vehicle or heavy gun support those numbers might work.
Posted by: Hyena
« on: November 29, 2013, 03:44:20 AM »

Quote from: alex_brunius link=topic=6486.  msg67336#msg67336 date=1385715009
2500 tons of ship to move 125 men = 20 ton per man. 

Vehicles will take up a lot of that. 

400 tanks @ 70 ton each = 28000 ton = 2 ton per man in the division. 
750 BMP/APC @ 20 ton each, to transport haft the division = 15000 ton = 1 ton per man in the division. 
750 Firesupport (artillery/AA/Anti tank) @ 20 ton each = 15000 ton = 1 ton per man in the division. 
Misc vehicles for recon and other special tasks = approx 1 ton per man in the division. 
Support vehicles/ammo/repair and mainly logistics for the above = double that for 5 ton per man in the division. 
=========================================
10 ton per man just for vehicles/heavy guns. 

Add more if you are including any airsupport, air recon or helis at all. 

Yes granted this is a heavy armored division, but the numbers are far from unreasonable or crazy.   They add up fairly well. 

The thing you're responding to isn't really relevant anymore.   But I really must protest regardless;
I disagree that half the tonnage when using the absolute worst-case scenario(heavy armor division) 'adds up well.  ' It is failing to account for half of the available space.   Speaking of which, you're also using short tons (weight) of a tank and comparing it to tonnage (cargo volume) and that just.  .   doesn't work.   A block of lead in the shape of a tank will weigh more but not take up any more cargo space.   Likewise an inflated blimp would require more tonnage to transport than a tank, despite being lighter than air.   Tanks are very heavy, but they are relatively compact in comparison to their weight.   More than that, you listed 400 very heavy (at 70 tons) tanks when, at least if you use the American military as an example (I assume you were, unless 70 tons - the weight of an M1 Abrams main battle tank - was a fluke), turns out to be about double what a division actually uses (which is between 100-250 heavy tanks).   

I didn't bother to check your other numbers, mostly because it's clear you were thinking in terms of weight, but that's all irrelevant anyway. 

.  .  .   because it's actually 2500 tons (of volume) to transport a 5 size ground unit (a battalion).   Which makes it 2500 tons for 1000 soldiers, roughly.   Which I think is perfectly fair.   Two tonnage per soldier with 500 left over for vehicles and supplies.   It was the reported size of 125 per division that was making the numbers go all wonky when the math was done backwards. 
Posted by: alex_brunius
« on: November 29, 2013, 02:50:09 AM »

Still, that's about 2500 tons of ship to move 125 men and their gear/vehicles.   Even if you allotted two tons of space to every soldier and his gear(reasonable, assuming storage and spartan sleeping quarters are necessary), you're still only looking at 250 tons of space.   Which leaves 2250 tons for what, exactly? 225 vehicles? Let's assume that there's a 10 ton vehicle to every 4 man team.   That is about 31 vehicles (rounding down because ten tons for every vehicle is very high).   That is still only 310 tons.   So we've gotten up to 560 tons out of 2500 tonnage.   So what's the rest for? Ordinance? Ammunition? Medical supplies? Radios? Food? Even if every single soldier consumed a whole ton of ammunition you're still only up to 685 tons.   Even if every single soldier was allotted one ton of medical supplies, you'd still only be up to 810 tons.  You're not even halfway to using it all.  Where is all the tonnage going?

2500 tons of ship to move 125 men = 20 ton per man.

Vehicles will take up a lot of that.

400 tanks @ 70 ton each = 28000 ton = 2 ton per man in the division.
750 BMP/APC @ 20 ton each, to transport haft the division = 15000 ton = 1 ton per man in the division.
750 Firesupport (artillery/AA/Anti tank) @ 20 ton each = 15000 ton = 1 ton per man in the division.
Misc vehicles for recon and other special tasks = approx 1 ton per man in the division.
Support vehicles/ammo/repair and mainly logistics for the above = double that for 5 ton per man in the division.
=========================================
10 ton per man just for vehicles/heavy guns.

Add more if you are including any airsupport, air recon or helis at all.

Yes granted this is a heavy armored division, but the numbers are far from unreasonable or crazy. They add up fairly well.
Posted by: sneer
« on: November 29, 2013, 01:41:18 AM »

there is no reason to move low tech stuff around
and you will get better staff really soon
Posted by: Hyena
« on: November 28, 2013, 09:13:48 PM »

I am aware of what a standard troop transport module carries.  It says it right in the description.

And yet this is still about as clear as mud.

If a Battalion is 5 size, and requires 1 module, then how does 5 modules bring you to size 125?

5 x 5 is 25, not 125.

By any rational math I can think of it should be 25 standard modules to carry a division if the division is 125 size.  So why. . . .

Okay.  Actually, as it turns out, the game does actually say the unit sizes somewhere - when you create the units.  Which I just realized while checking something.
It says that Low Tech Infantry/Armor is size 50, not size 125.

The wiki also says 50.  I am getting the impression that the size lists in this thread are the result of bad math.  The 125 size was what I had an issue with.  50 I can deal with, but this thread has some very wonky information.
Posted by: JacenHan
« on: November 28, 2013, 08:09:27 PM »

A standard troop transport module carries a battalion, not a company. That's about 1000 men and their equipment. Company sized modules are much smaller.

For clarification:
1 size point = Company, small transport module.
5 size points = Battalion, standard transport module.
125 size points = Low tech division, 5 transport modules.
Posted by: Hyena
« on: November 28, 2013, 05:18:32 PM »

Quote from: alex_brunius link=topic=6486.  msg67323#msg67323 date=1385677878
low-tech divisions are not made to be moved easily in small spaceships :)

A real modern division consists of around 15'000 men and equipment like trucks and APCs to move them all.   In addition mechanized and armored divisions have 500-1500 of combat vehicles weighting 10-80 ton each normally. 

On top of that you add equally much tons of support vehicles like engineer, supply, ammo, and so forth. 

Still, that's about 2500 tons of ship to move 125 men and their gear/vehicles.   Even if you allotted two tons of space to every soldier and his gear(reasonable, assuming storage and spartan sleeping quarters are necessary), you're still only looking at 250 tons of space.   Which leaves 2250 tons for what, exactly? 225 vehicles? Let's assume that there's a 10 ton vehicle to every 4 man team.   That is about 31 vehicles (rounding down because ten tons for every vehicle is very high).   That is still only 310 tons.   So we've gotten up to 560 tons out of 2500 tonnage.   So what's the rest for? Ordinance? Ammunition? Medical supplies? Radios? Food? Even if every single soldier consumed a whole ton of ammunition you're still only up to 685 tons.   Even if every single soldier was allotted one ton of medical supplies, you'd still only be up to 810 tons.  You're not even halfway to using it all.  Where is all the tonnage going?

I dunno, there might be some reasoning behind the logistics of that.   I imagine that the amount of space required to move large amounts of troops is pretty considerable, but this seems excessive (in that it is a wildly conservative estimate) nonetheless.   Transport modules should be able to move more than they do.   And you still ought to be able to move units piecemeal. 

Quote
It would probably make sense to show low-tech units as brigades instead though to make them a bit more manageable.   Almost all units in today's armies are brigades rather then divisions. 
It would, and it wouldn't hurt to say in the pre-generated names of ground units what they are.   It doesn't call them brigades or divisions, it just says 18th Low Tech Infantry.   Tacking on 'Division' would clear things up a bit.   And again, adding in the unit size for purposes of transportation.