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Posted by: Mor
« on: February 25, 2016, 11:58:18 AM »

Ever played Hoi3? they did a fine job with occupation\unrest\supply\interdiction\convoy raiding\etc all integrated e.g. Revolt risk limit you expansion rate, threaten your supply lines and can even stall major operations. It is something you can and should deal/make use of (setting up strategic garrisons and mobile force in case of partisans\invasion, and to increase local cooperation). All of that comes with a great easily controlled, at glance UI, and you can even use AI to deal with whack em all. All and all one of the best implementations I know, and still partisans ("Pirates") are one of the least enjoyable parts.. after a while its just mindless  auto Ctrl+Click it away.

In our case, I agree that designing and setting up patrols is nice RP wise, but the real question is what you can implement? Because I doubt that patrol novelty will last long once people start getting endless interrupted due to some random pest pirate that will die from any hit, with all your fancy patrols mostly bogging down the game performance with each system you take..
Posted by: Sematary
« on: February 22, 2016, 07:23:18 PM »

Quote from: Rich.h on February 21, 2016, 03:09:57 PM
One way I could see this working is similar to shipping lines, where you only start to get certain shipping line type ships as the demand is there by having colonies needing things such as population or goods etc. You could have a mechanic where one a system has reached a point of having a number of colonies with a minimum population amount of each one, this way you could in theory argue that they are hiding out in a less well developed colony in the system and hitting freighters. Instead of them generating income the way a shipping line does they would generate income from destroying ships, as they gain income they purchase more ships to use and in return generate more income.

However I do think that it should never be just a background invisible thing, you could argue that generally there would always be a criminal element in play so totally wiping out a pirate group would be impossible. But the ships should be able to appear as physical ships the same as shipping lines do, only they would be perhaps using false transponders so that unless they pass through an active scan range they do not appear hostile. Once an active scanner hits them you get a hostile blip and can destroy the pirate ship the same as any other hostile enemy. Once destroyed that ship is deleted from the pirate/shipping line group.

This could mean you have to be more vigilant about how to provide security in systems and no longer rely on just any big beast of a PDC to give the needed PPV to keep folks happy, you would have to set up and maintain active sensor nets or patrols to ensure the safety of all in system.

I like this idea, as it essentially requires you to dedicate ships to patrol, which means your fuel use will go up by far. Also it would create a really nice space for smaller ships probably classed as Corvettes because you would have a large tension between fuel efficiency/speed and firepower/size (size looping back into the first tension point) because you don't want to dedicate a lot of a rather precious resource, fuel, to anti piracy nonsense when it could be used in combat operations but at the same time you can only let the problem get so bad/you need so much firepower to destroy these pirate ships.
Posted by: iceball3
« on: February 22, 2016, 12:38:52 PM »

Quote from: Mor on February 22, 2016, 12:05:27 PM
FYI. My suggestion is strictly speaking about CIVILIAN ships i.e. civilian shipping lines, not state owned ships that use commercial tech.  But the confusion is understandable with all the other suggestions.
But I also mean in terms of what should be considered the default designs. If you can go through the resources of training the marines for this that is, this would essentially negate acts of piracy, that, and the fact that we shouldn't be disallowed from escorting our own shipping lines if piracy is a thing that can actually get to them in spite of the blockades, etc.
Another issue is that in spite of the desire of tech, you'd think a ship that needs boarding-action-speeds would make a very significant thermal signature for it's size, raising all sorts of alarms.
Posted by: Mor
« on: February 22, 2016, 12:05:27 PM »

FYI. My suggestion is strictly speaking about CIVILIAN ships i.e. civilian shipping lines, not state owned ships that use commercial tech.  But the confusion is understandable with all the other suggestions.
Posted by: iceball3
« on: February 22, 2016, 11:58:04 AM »

Quote from: Mor on February 22, 2016, 11:12:15 AM
No more than us abstracting post occupation militia activities as unrest.

Realistically, Active Sensors, which instantly detect object as the tiny as missiles, from across the star system should be detecting thousands upon thousands of objects (all the things I already mentioned, like satellites, civilian infrastructure, daily shuttle/freight traffic getting thousands of workers/colonist, and tons of materials/supplies into/from orbit) But we don't see them because *insert some technobable* e.g. software filter and friendly transponder signals.

And it stands the reason that criminal\corporate\state actors would find ways to circumvent anti-piracy means, as they always do. So you may not like the idea of abstraction, but it implying realistically its not consistent aint going to work. Better yet suggest how to overcome all the issues I mentioned with physical ships.
And what of the escorts you may have to defend any significant assets? They'll just ignore a sensor contact converging on their position without permission, and won't be permitted to attempt communication or just shoot the darn thing down?

Alternatively, if commercial ships would be allowed to be taken by some rampant pirates, shouldn't they make boarding combat rolls rather than just "ship get"? And in that case, what purpose is there to design any significantly sized commercial ship without loading up a Marine Company on it?
Posted by: Mor
« on: February 22, 2016, 11:12:15 AM »

No more than us abstracting post occupation militia activities as unrest.

Realistically, Active Sensors, which instantly detect object as the tiny as missiles, from across the star system should be detecting thousands upon thousands of objects (all the things I already mentioned, like satellites, civilian infrastructure, daily shuttle/freight traffic getting thousands of workers/colonist, and tons of materials/supplies into/from orbit) But we don't see them because *insert some technobable* e.g. software filter and friendly transponder signals.

And it stands the reason that criminal\corporate\state actors would find ways to circumvent anti-piracy means, as they always do. So you may not like the idea of abstraction, but it implying realistically its not consistent aint going to work. Better yet suggest how to overcome all the issues I mentioned with physical ships.
Posted by: iceball3
« on: February 22, 2016, 09:37:00 AM »

Quote from: Mor on February 22, 2016, 06:32:39 AM
member=4583]iceball3[/member]
urora simulate only specific strategic assets, but just because there are no commercial shipyard, doesn't mean that hey aren't there. If we had TN materials, that make getting in orbit cheaper, not to speak of spaceflight and times, the system would be CRAWLING with civilian spacecraft and installations in FAR greater number than any navy assets we imulate.
And its not like you need a state of the art military battleship with combat pods to sabotage a freighter, especially on ecently occupied frontier world. Any modified shuttle could do, or while in port just mask a bomb as space junk and hrow t toward a hull for example.
/quote]Which lends to assume your active sensors are fallible even when something would make sense to detect. Which is a cop-out. The only alternative which allows unseen assets without being a cop-out is to render stealth tech ridiculously good, in which case it simply becomes easy to obliterate people by the millions without being spotted by point defense. That would be missiles.
Posted by: Mor
« on: February 22, 2016, 06:32:39 AM »

@Rich.h
Indeed, there would always be a criminal element in play. And post invasion resistance groups for example. Just because we defeated their army, doesn't mean we pacified them.

The reason I bring this up, is because logistics has always been a staple of strategy, for that reason we simulate supplies and civilian fleets. Due to the nature of JPs, natural choke points, there are very strategic opportunities to raid supply lines. The AI regularly sending its fleet to break on your front line defenses, and all your vulnerable supply and civilian ships are never in harms way.

I'd love to have physical ships but most implementations I know of, are extremely annoying whack em all. Usually some sort of militia\barbarian unit based on your current tech, that spawns in the "fog of war", that is either realistically weak and meaningless because the AI can't use it in a meaningful way; or unrealistic strong and disruptive without any way to avoid getting frakked by the RND in the first place (i'd hate to have to pave the galaxy with DSTS).

This is why I prefer the event compromise, its not as pretty but you'll suffer some of the effect of stretching your forces to thin without the added micro, performance overhead and silly AI scenarios.

@iceball3
Aurora simulate only specific strategic assets, but just because there are no commercial shipyard, doesn't mean that they aren't there. If we had TN materials, that make getting in orbit cheaper, not to speak of spaceflight and times, the system would be CRAWLING with civilian spacecraft and installations in FAR greater number than any navy assets we simulate.

And its not like you need a state of the art military battleship with combat pods to sabotage a freighter, especially on recently occupied frontier world. Any modified shuttle could do, or while in port just mask a bomb as space junk and throw it toward a hull for example.
Posted by: iceball3
« on: February 21, 2016, 04:01:16 PM »

And even then, in terms of space pirates, given how much it is supposed to cost to manufacture space vessels, you could literally find and obliterate any non-deep-space pirate operation by putting DSTS on most of the key points and chokepoints of a system, as well as having PDC garrisons on any body with significant minerals, population, and industry.
Posted by: Rich.h
« on: February 21, 2016, 03:09:57 PM »

One way I could see this working is similar to shipping lines, where you only start to get certain shipping line type ships as the demand is there by having colonies needing things such as population or goods etc. You could have a mechanic where one a system has reached a point of having a number of colonies with a minimum population amount of each one, this way you could in theory argue that they are hiding out in a less well developed colony in the system and hitting freighters. Instead of them generating income the way a shipping line does they would generate income from destroying ships, as they gain income they purchase more ships to use and in return generate more income.

However I do think that it should never be just a background invisible thing, you could argue that generally there would always be a criminal element in play so totally wiping out a pirate group would be impossible. But the ships should be able to appear as physical ships the same as shipping lines do, only they would be perhaps using false transponders so that unless they pass through an active scan range they do not appear hostile. Once an active scanner hits them you get a hostile blip and can destroy the pirate ship the same as any other hostile enemy. Once destroyed that ship is deleted from the pirate/shipping line group.

This could mean you have to be more vigilant about how to provide security in systems and no longer rely on just any big beast of a PDC to give the needed PPV to keep folks happy, you would have to set up and maintain active sensor nets or patrols to ensure the safety of all in system.
Posted by: Nyvis
« on: February 20, 2016, 05:42:14 PM »

Quote from: TheDeadlyShoe link=topic=8351. msg86649#msg86649 date=1455659754
the problem is that pirates make little sense in Aurora, logistically.   Starships are too expensive and too difficult to support, and there's nowhere to hide.   Or at least that's what I've run into when RPing it.   Any piracy from outside a solar system can be stopped by guarding the gates, and there's no way to hide a pirate base within a solar system; there is a finite number of bodies in the solar system and it is not that difficult to check them all.

Jump points are the biggest problem right now.  They're fixed once discovered, and as such, inter system movement is really easy to anticipate.  We have 'cloaks', but they only dampen, not remove signal, meaning that passing through a blockaded jump point stealthily is impossible right now.

One way I've been thinking about is to use binary systems with huge distance between stars.  Pirates in this case could use slow, fuel efficient and well cloaked carriers releasing quick raiding ships.  Any expedition to their base would be extremely fuel costly and grant them ample forewarning, letting them hide in deep space until the threat passes.  Something to try, maybe?

As a whole, if players can't find a way to make it work ingame, it's unlikely NPCs could do it in a logical fashion.  Pirates appearing out of nowhere would bug me endlessly in a game that is overall fairly consistent.

On the other hand, if you switch from jump points to a more fluid interstellar travel mean (temporary wormhole, free move hyperspace. . . ), piracy becomes really easy because you can't just seal off the entrances. 
Posted by: Mor
« on: February 17, 2016, 10:57:40 AM »

Quote from: jiduthie on February 17, 2016, 10:13:49 AM
I'd prefer a system like the one I outlined a few posts up to the simple random events that Mor seems to be advocating.

The reason I support Abstraction over Physical manifestation, because with current mechanics you can't fool sensors,  falsify transponder data, use "stealth" ships (too OP), represents various factions or anything other than spawn a whack em all micro hell. Physical pirate ships means endless patrols and sensors checks preformace overhead.

As for Abstraction, what I like about DwarfFortress is that most mechanics have an impact on several levels, making choices mater (and generally have nice flavor description on top), that why I like Aurora ship designs and fleet management, in contrast a lot of the Empire management has very limited effect, especially in space.

Unlike your suggestion, my main goal is not (small random chance of) creating pirates. Instead I want to tie in existing mechanics with consequences. For example: Security situation in sector Sigma is deteriorating, commercial ship has been lost, locals blame bordering xeno scum, demanding additional fleet assets.
Posted by: jiduthie
« on: February 17, 2016, 10:13:49 AM »

Quote from: TheDeadlyShoe on February 17, 2016, 07:23:28 AM
Uh, I don't think we need to get into a philosophy argument here.
I'll stop arguing when you stop disagreeing with me! :)

 
Quote from: TheDeadlyShoe on February 17, 2016, 07:23:28 AM
And that is not what strawman means! :O

Care to elaborate? I did my best to try to explain why I thought the point against abstraction wasn't really pertinent.

 
Quote from: TheDeadlyShoe on February 17, 2016, 07:23:28 AM
Civilian ships are physical in the game. They exist on the same layer and under the same rules as all NPC-controlled ships.  For a civilian ship to blip out from an invisible, non-physical, abstract pirate ship violates the simulation -  and will inevitably result in gamey 'impossible piracy'.

Again, civilians do not operate "under the same rules as all NPC-controlled ships." They operate under a layer of 'abstraction.' I'd prefer a system like the one I outlined a few posts up to the simple random events that Mor seems to be advocating. However, I really can't see why pirates should be a a flat no go because they might require 'abstract' mechanics and am completely unsympathetic to the argument that they must be more 'abstract' than the current rules governing civilian shipping lines.
Posted by: Mor
« on: February 17, 2016, 09:01:31 AM »

Quote from: TheDeadlyShoe on February 17, 2016, 07:23:28 AM
Civilian ships are physical in the game. They exist on the same layer and under the same rules as all NPC-controlled ships.
  For a civilian ship to blip out from an invisible, non-physical, abstract pirate ship violates the simulation -  and will inevitably result in gamey 'impossible piracy'.[/quote]

EVERYTHING about civilian shipping is abstracted. They require no resources/infrastructure to develop, construct and maintain (e.g. Your fleets will grind to halt if your systems run dry on Sorium, not so civilian ships they will keep flying and multiplying like nothing happened) They also suffer no accidents, morale problems etc., and are limited to 4 generic designs with colonization and performance in mind...

Because the only reason why civilian ships are physically in the game and not abstracted as trade lines, is to fill your main and vast theater and give you a strategic goal (so you have to protect yours from raiders and user theirs as target practice)

Here, I am looking to expand those goals and adding immersion, by adding common factors like crime, dissent, attrition etc., called here "pirates" because who doesn't like pirates, argh?. I think that:
* Physical: Within the current mechanics and level of abstraction, its very hard to add pirates physically without adding a host of sensor checks (performance), micro management and impossible scenarios, which would make many people grumpy.
* Abstraction, by using events that are based on already established mechanics, you can cover larger host of events, add flavor, with no added micro, and make the relevant decision more meaningful.
Posted by: TheDeadlyShoe
« on: February 17, 2016, 07:23:28 AM »

Uh, I don't think we need to get into a philosophy argument here.  And that is not what strawman means! :O

Civilian ships are physical in the game. They exist on the same layer and under the same rules as all NPC-controlled ships.  For a civilian ship to blip out from an invisible, non-physical, abstract pirate ship violates the simulation -  and will inevitably result in gamey 'impossible piracy'.