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Posted by: DIT_grue
« on: Today at 02:59:52 AM »

It is straight up most efficient to give as many labs to as few scientists as possible and then exactly ONE lab to all the rest so they can train.

Even that is a compromise. There's nothing mechanically preventing you assigning a project, reducing the allocated labs to zero, then leaving the scientist in charge to improve their skill at the same odds as any other project leader. (I guess churning out paper studies and grant applications in a desperate scrabble to acquire the resources to actually get the job done is excellent practice and motivation?)
Posted by: JustAnotherDude
« on: Yesterday at 07:47:25 PM »

I like the escalation mechanic and a spoiler that works that way would be interesting and superships are always fun but I feel that there's too much overlap between this and invaders.  The thought you out into is is evident, though.

Also locking tech levels isn't the best idea I'm my opinion, they should scale relative to the player to an extent because it's easy to get a curb stomp either way if it's fixed.
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: Yesterday at 05:34:00 PM »

To which I would add that we already have both Invaders and the Arachnid Omnivoracity.  We have ever-increasing, ever-improving 'outside' forces that can't be counter-invaded, only endured or stoppered.  And we have suicidally-hostile, wipe-out-all-life, massively out-produce player empire(s) yet technologically slow/stagnant enemies.

Certainly, the 'implacable foe' and/or 'endless horde' is a staple of space opera, and has a place in Aurora.  But I agree that spoiler races need to be significantly different from not only what a player can do, but from each other.

Personally, I also think they should be a surprise.  That is why we spoiler them after all.  I wouldn't want to know all the mechanics behind them (as are laid out above).  There are more things in space (and Aurora) than are dreamt of in my empire's philosophy.

I am excited to discover organically the changes and additions Steve has made to the spoiler races, and if he wants to do something like The Forbidden is suggesting, hopefully he'll keep the details quiet until well after I've had my grubby little manipulators on C# Aurora for a while.

- - -

First, though, I want Steve to build the "bug button" he promised me:
Posted by: Garfunkel
« on: Yesterday at 04:50:01 PM »

So it's a combination of Swarm and Invaders with minor differences here and there? While that isn't inherently a bad thing, my gut instinct is that any new spoiler should radically stand out from the existing spoilers.
Posted by: The Forbidden
« on: Yesterday at 04:40:19 PM »

Idea for a SPOILER race for Aurora 4X.

This race is heavily inspired by the Achuultani from the Empire from the Ashes novel of David Weber, the Gbaba from the Safehold novel series also from David Weber, the Imperium of Man from Warhammer 40 000 license of Games Workshop, as well as the Fallen and Awakened Empires of the video game Stellaris from Paradox Interactive.

I’ll refer to the race as the Achuultani throughout the proposal to keep thing streamlined, as well as a form of hommage, it should be noted however that they have few things in common with the ones from the Empire from the Ashes besides periodic galactic genocide.

There is also a small TL;DR at the end, for those of you who don't want to wade through this wall of text ^^.

Fluff (background and information) :

The Achuultani is an interstellar, some would say galaxy spanning, Empire that has existed for so long that it’s origins vanish in the mist of galactic history. Their civilization came to galactic domination through the extermination of all other sentient forms of life in the galaxy. What triggered such a behavior is shrouded in mystery, and it is highly unlikely that the Achuultani themselves even remember it. One important fact however is that through xenocide their Empire was founded, and through xenocide it is sustained. The reason for such a long reign of galactic domination is simple : the Achuultani purely and simply wipe out any and all possible competitors to their hegemony, and every sentient specie they encounter is considered a potential competitor.

The Achuultani Empire is tied together by a massive network of so called Hyperspace Gates, massive constructs that can go from the size of a large space station to larger than an entire planet. Those Gates allow near-instantaneous travel throughout their Empire, allowing ships to traverse their massive galactic hegemony in a matter of days. Every colony in the Achuultani Empire has at least an Hyperspace Gate, which ties the solar system with the rest of the Empire. The gate varies in size depending on the colony of course, with small outposts having a gate barely capable of letting FACs and systems defence boats through, while massive industrialized worlds would have access to a gate capable of transiting capital ships in the hundreds of thousands of tons.

Fortunately, the Achuultani Empire has decayed into decadence, bureaucratic incompetence, and technology has become a much coveted commodity, technological knowledge being hoarded by the Core Worlds, keeping it away from the outer colonies, and only using it sparingly. This in turn has severely weakened it’s response to an emerging threat, such as an interstellar Empire.

When the first reports from outposts and colonies come in of contact with space-faring aliens, it can take months, years, in some cases even decades for the report to make it’s way in the incomprehensible labyrinth that is the Achuultani bureaucracy. Most of the time those reports are read and acted upon long after the outpost in question has been reduced to radioactive ash by saturation orbital bombardment. Initially the only response will be a few scout ships, with orders to attack all vessels that they encounter, and assess the threat. Most of the time the grand majority of these scouting expeditions do not come back, but usually a few do, giving coordinates of alien worlds and centers of population, setting the gears of the Achuultani war machine in motion.

After confirmed sightings of alien population centers (or too many lost scout ships) the Achuultani Bureau of Extermination will set in motion, and light patrols as well as expeditionary formations are sent out to dispatch the threat. Systems close to the aliens are slowly, but surely, reinforced, and basic defense stations and ground units are shipped out along the patrol detachements. Regular patrols are set up in the systems adjacent to Achuultani worlds. Meanwhile the expeditionary formations, usually composed of frigates and destroyers of a few thousand tons each at best, start aggressive reconnaissance efforts in systems where scout ships disappeared or found signs of alien life. Once there they will search the entire system from top to bottom, checking every single asteroid for life signs, and bombarding into oblivion any and all signs of active sentient life in the system with near automata single-mindedness, even unmanned installations being bombarded from high orbit without a second thought.

If the specie that encountered them is unlucky enough to not have a standing navy when encountering those first expeditions, they are at a very real risk of being wiped out. But most civilizations quickly dispatch those small expeditions, who will single mindedly attack even super-battleships head on, leading some civilizations to speculate that the first waves are little more than brain washed lunatics, although upon inspection of personnel further up the chain of command, it becomes obvious that it is simply that not exterminating all other sentient life is completely alien to the Achuultani, that fact having become so ingrained into their society that it is practically coded into their genome (and might actually be, in fact).

If the expeditionary forces fail to terminate the menace, the alert level is raised, and the Empire stirs as the Bureau of Extermination begins dispatching light cruiser aggressive reconnaissance formations and new expeditionary task forces sporting heavy cruisers ranging in the tens of thousands of tons with substantial amounts of lighter escorts. Those forces, while quite heavy in tonnage, are relatively low tech, sporting ion drives and equivalent technology, and are built more for extended deployment than combat. The fortification efforts at the frontier systems are accelerated, more stations (although still of the same pathetically technologically backward type as the previous wave) and troops are brought in, and expeditionary fleets are stationed in high orbit over every Achuultani population center while the number of patrols in the nearby systems is augmented (although only the frequency of the patrols increases, the ships remaining the same).

Should this fail as well the Bureau of Extermination will activate it’s own combat protocols, and deem the situation to start getting problematic. Battlecruisers and even more heavy cruisers are called up, as new waves of scout ships are sent, the expeditionary fleets become substantially deadlier and magneto-plasma drive level of technology starts appearing in the heavier starships and picket forces are placed at each jump point leading to an Achuultani systems, and minor fortifications are set up at the jump points. Overall the rate of patrols and aggressive reconnaissance raids increases as the expeditionary task forces remain on the same schedule, albeit significantly reinforced.

If the task forces remain unsuccessful, the matter is deemed critical, and the Bureau of Extermination steps down. For a few months, the raids slow down, then stops entirely as all Bureau forces withdraw, leaving only the fortifications, picket ships and orbital defence fleets untouched. And at long last, the Achuultani Fleet steps in.

Fortifications are quickly supplemented with much more capable stations, the grunts on the ground, that were until now holding their grounds with nothing more than simple body armor, assault riffles, a few autocanons and the odd STO, being joined by fleet marines, equipped with heavy armor, light to medium tanks, AA defences, a full complement of STOs and substantial artillery. The pickets are backed up with combat ready detachments and entire fleet task forces take up guard position in high orbit over Achuultani worlds.

Task Forces led by battlecruisers, supplemented with escort carriers carrying FACs and fighters, heavy cruisers and destroyers serving as escorts. Naval bases are established to resupply ships whose operational time and fuel reserves are significantly smaller than the one of their Bureau counterparts. Their technology is uniformly magneto-plasma drive level. Fleet Task Forces are significantly deadlier, boasting carrier capabilities, decent point defence with massed railguns and lasers, as well as much thicker armor and better shield generators.

Should those forces fail, the Achuultani Empire will stir once more, and rumble as the sleeping giant starts to wake up. Battleships ranging in the hundreds of thousands of tons are called up, lumbering behemots of incredible destructive power, joined by fleet carriers of equivalent tonnage, vast warfleets of ships being called up to support them. Massive fortresses are deployed to secure Achuultani worlds, and the Achuultani starts expanding, securing supply lines and establishing fleet bases and maintenance stations in key systems, with accompanying fleet marines detachment. Detachments and small picket forces are also stationed above each significant purified population center.

Were those massive fleets to falter, and be unable to finish their assignments, the Achuultani Empire will finally notice the tiny speck of dust calling itself an Empire defying it (or at least so they see it). The Fleet is reinforced by elements of the Achuultani Armada, vast super-battleships and siege carriers, as well as mobile motherships joining the attack fleets, technology improving substantially as patrols counting battlecruisers in their ranks starts deploying everywhere, waves of them attempting more reconnaissance and strikes on civilian shipping. Jump points are systematically fortified as space stations large enough to pass for large asteroids are towed in the orbit of Achuultani worlds, and new gates are assembled in controlled systems to increase the flow of ships and troops to the front lines. Imperial Marines, equipped with heavy tanks, extremely powerful STOs and scores of support systems are sent by the thousands to garrison systems. A vast invasion fleet is gathered, whose tonnage dwarves even moons, with millions of soldiers and dozens of capital ships accompanied with hundreds of escorts. And then, finally, the attack is launched.

Finally, it’s most capable warships shattered and it’s mightiest fleets now debris fields, the Achuultani Empire recoils. Horror dawns on them, and the giant wakes. Ancient data caches are unearthed, shielded worlds and massive fleet mothballs are opened. Cryogenic pods containing heroes of the Empire are thawed out, and warforges that have laid dormant for millions of years sputter back to life.

The Achuultani Empire is Awakened once more, and a new Great Crusade is declared.

A massive onslaught of warships is sent upon those who have defied the Achuultani, antimatter powered starships being sent to the frontlines by the dozens, sometimes the hundreds, and a long lost warship, a Nova class Super-Dreadnought, is reactivated. Crusaders detachments, genetically engineered super-soldiers clad in power armour, wielding weapons capable of vaporizing buildings, piloting super-heavy vehicles the size of skyscrappers and manning STOs capable of shredding even capital ships. A massive Invasion gate the size of a super-jovian is once more connected to the network, where the planet sized super-dreadnought stands watch over it like an immortal guardian. Nothing short of it’s annihilation capable of stemming the tide of death.

That is, until the Achuultani inevitably succomb to their greatest weakness.....themselves.

Crunch (The vague ideas in term of gameplay) :

Adds the Achuultani race.

An Achuultani colony can appear on an any planet with large quantities of oxygen, and will usually sport medium to low accessibility of very high quantities of multiple TN elements. Colonies can come in several sizes, which will determine the presence of the Achuultani in the system as well :

-Outpost : Only a Small Gate orbitting the planet and a couple of FACs, the population will be around 100 000, no industry.

-Colony : A Small Gate orbits the planet, with a squadron of FACs. Large amounts of mines and few CF. Population in the few millions.

-Rim World : A Small Gate orbits the planet, with several squadrons of FACs and a small amount of frigates and destroyers, large amounts of mines and a decent amount of CF, as well as 3 Civilian Mining colonies in the system. Population in the tens of millions.

-Civilized World : A Medium Gate orbits the planet, with several squadrons of frigates and destroyers, accompanied by a few cruisers. Fortresses already guard the planet’s orbit, albeit very low tech. Large amount of mines, a decent amount of CF, several financial centers, 3 to 10 Civilian Mining colonies in the system. Population in the hundred of million.

-Industrialized World : A Medium Gate orbits the planet, with squadrons of cruisers guarding the world. Fortresses supplemented by substantial ground forces are also in place, with small garrison in every extra-planetary settlements. Large mount of CF, decent amount of mines, lots of financial centers. Several satellite colonies of a few hundred thousands in population throughout the system. Population in the hundreds of millions.

-Member World : A Large Gate orbits the planet, with squadrons of battlecruisers, and perhaps a few capital ships, deployed in the system, backed up by large amounts of escorts. Fortresses are numerous and relatively advanced, and bolstered by a very large garrison, with detachments and additional stations scattered throughout the system. Incredible amount of CF, no mines, lots of financial centers, a few shipyards. Dozens of habitats and satellite colonies whose population totals in the tens of millions throughout the system. Population of the entire system around a billion.

Reinforcement Points :
The Achuultani do not build ships, instead, they get reinforcements through their gates, who are allocated based on the resources the system has. The more of CFs, mines, population and financial centers it has, the more Reinforcement Points (RP) it gets. Note that shipyards count for a lot in RP generation. This is for their systems however, has the waves function slightly differently.

Each RP is equivalent to a thousand tons of ship.

The waves essentially buy pre-made fleets and task forces, and direct them around. If a fleet or task force take losses, and manages to withdraw to a large enough gate, the AI then basically buys the ships it needs to refill the taskforce to it’s original strength, or close to it. All damaged ships are repaired at the gates, with a 1 month timer (to simulate ships being sent back to the shipyards while another is sent from the depths of the Empire, and all the bureaucratic shenanigans), and the AI can “recycle” fleets, refunding their RP cost by sending them through the portal, effectively deleting them, allowing for a recall of various task forces that are not doing the job, and trying a new strategy.

Similarly the defence budget is spent on fleets/task forces that are assigned at one of three posts : Picket, at which point it will either pick a jump point in the system without picket, preferably the one which leads to an NPR or player race, or reinforce the most lightly defended of the jump points.
Guard, where it will stand guard over the planet and (more importantly for the Empire) the gate.
Patrol, essentially meaning that they will randomly check either the adjacent systems, or even systems further down the jump chain periodically, essentially going to all the habitable bodies, the mineral rich ones(including sorium rich gas giants), and finally the jump points, in that order, before retreating back to base.
Or on stations, which can be either assigned to Jump point protection or the protection of the the Gate and the planet.

The Gates :

There are different types of gates, with different properties, as follow :

-Small Gate :
Maximum tonnage per ship able to transit : 3 000 tons.
Maximum total tonnage in a year : 90 000 tons.

-Medium Gate :
Maximum tonnage per ship able to transit : 90 000 tons.
Maximum total tonnage in a year : 700 000 tons.

-Large Gate :
Maximum tonnage per ship able to transit : 300 000 tons.
Maximum total tonnage in a year : 3 000 000 tons.

-Gargantuan Gate :
Note : Does not spawn, built by the Achuultani Fleet.
Maximum tonnage per ship able to transit : 600 000 tons.
Maximum total tonnage in a year : 9 000 000 tons.

-Invasion Gate :
Note : Has a 0.1% of spawning in any given system, replaces a super-jovian and has a Lagrange point. Only one per galaxy. If none have been discovered and the Great Crusade start, a system with one will be generated via a dormant jump point.
Maximum tonnage per ship able to transit : Infinite.
Maximum total tonnage in a year : Infinite.

All gates act as stations, that, if destroyed cease to function. The only exception is the Invasion Gate, who cannot be destroyed as it is a celestial body, destroying the orbiting Super-Dreadnought will shut it down though.

The waves :

Defence budget includes patrol and “home fleets” as well as static fortifications, it does not, however, include the innate defenses and resources of the system, who can reinforce their own militia according to their own capabilities.
There are several stages in the waves attack sent by the Achuultani, as follow :

-Unaware :
Attack waves annual budget : 0 RP
Defence annual budget : 0 RP
Tech level : Low.

Scouting Procedure :
Attack waves annual budget : 10 RP
Defence annual budget : 0 RP
Tech level : Low.

Expeditionary Units :
Attack waves annual budget : 30 RP
Defence annual budget : 10 RP
Tech level : Low.

Expeditonnary Task Forces :
Attack waves annual budget : 100 RP
Defence annual budget : 30 RP
Tech level : Low.

Expeditionnary Fleets :
Attack waves annual budget : 300 RP
Defence annual budget : 45 RP
Tech level : Low to Midline (larger ships are midline, the rest is low).

Achuultani Fleet Incursion :
Attack waves annual budget : 1 000 RP
Defence annual budget : 250 RP
Tech level : Midline

Achuultani Fleet Invasion :
Attack waves annual budget : 3 000 RP
Defence annual budget : 350 RP
Tech level : Midline to Midline+ (Battleships and Fleet Carriers being Magnetic Confinement Fusion Drive level, and the rest of the ships a more cospolitan mix of less advanced tech).

Achuultani Armada Intervention :
Attack waves annual budget : 10 000 RP
Defence annual budget : 3 000 RP
Tech level : High (first tier of antimatter).

Great Crusade :
Attack waves annual budget : 100 000 RP
Defence annual budget : 10 000 RP
Tech level : High.

Civil War :
Attack waves annual budget : 250 to 1 000 RP
Defence annual budget : 0 RP
Tech level : Low to Midline.

Note that the Great Crusade stops a few years after it’s inception, as the Achuultani Empire fall once more into civil war. The back of it’s war machine broken, they will withdraw all of their fleets and only send (or exile) warfleets of middling power compared to their once incomparable armadas. This is heavily inspired by the Great Khan mid-game crisis from Stellaris, where weathering the onslaught and holding on is an option as is going for the head of the problem (although you can surrender yourself to the Khan in Stellaris).

Now, all of those numbers are very much experimental, I do not have a big playing experience with Aurora, let alone the C# version (obviously), and I have no clue if this could even be implemented, it’s more of a proof of concept than anything :

The Achuultani rely on a large number of low tech warships, and their main strength comes from sheer attrition, as they will keep sending waves after waves of starships until your empire is no more. Their technology might be easily reproducible (and complete rubbish at some points) but the point being that they should always be able to outproduce the player. They don’t have any form of tactics, except in the later waves, they just rush headlong into the enemy (they do have strategic planning though, and should try to alter fleet composition to counter the player’s according to their intelligence). They’re a mix between the AI in AI Wars from Arcen game and the Arachnid Omnivoracity, completely uncarring about their losses and having a virtually unlimited production capability, the only thing limiting them being the bureaucratic inertia and the decay and decadence of their own Empire.

Woo, okay, I’m done. Please be gentle with this, it’s just been one big brainstorm and I haven’t exactly been able to much refine it yet, but I felt like posting it to see what far more experience players are thinking would be a good idea. So, what are your thoughts ?
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: October 13, 2019, 05:19:15 AM »

It is straight up most efficient to give as many labs to as few scientists as possible and then exactly ONE lab to all the rest so they can train.

Unlocking techs along the way is way better than unlocking ALL the techs at the end of the cycle which you get if you spread your labs around evenly.

If you focus the labs you will in general speed up research and industry and so will win on that tactic in the end no matter how you see it.

To me this is boring and very unrealistic so I have rules that prevent this sort of usage of labs so you are forced to make more long term decisions which become allot more strategic and interesting. It also stops you from extreme focusing of certain technologies and areas.
Labs should instead have a diminishing return as you assign them to projects, this would be a far more interesting mechanic. This diminishing return could also be modified with the scientists administrative skills. A linear increase of more labs is not realistic to begin with. With this you also could skip the skill of the scientist, instead each branch could have sub branches instead. With that I mean a scientist can be "Defence System" major and "Shield" specialist... some could be specialist in more than one field. The administrative skill would impact the number of research point they can get from more labs while the major and specialist areas decide the base number of points they get from said research in a linear capacity. No need for numbered skills. This would produce more interesting choices for research would be my guess and a relatively simple change.

In my games I limit the number of labs that scientists can use differently than what the game does. I also force labs to be used in specific categories and shifting them to other categories can only be done over a longer time period, worst case scenario they will have to be unused for some time. But that is just how I does it and like to do it. I don't like the gamy type of efficiency by which you can focus either research or industry in the game. In my opinion the game become allot more interesting if you need to focus more on long term strategies, makes for more realistic decisions.

Part of these efficiency "problems" that the game have is also what causes the snowball effect to become quite severe in multi-faction games. Bonuses are directly transferred into better industry, research etc no matter where these facilities are or how many you have. A small (or tall) empire need as much investment in resources to transfer industrial efficiency bonuses as a spread out or wide empire can for example.

I know we have had these discussions before... but I think that now in C# buildings could have a technology level and we could now "upgrade" them with industry. This would be more realistic and would also force you to have some industry where you want to upgrade things. Automated mines could perhaps be upgraded by sending upgrading "kits" to those places.

This would make a huge difference to the game in the form of infrastructure and logistics and how much you can centralise the empires populations and also force most population sites to not specialise entirely which you often do otherwise which is quite unrealistic in most circumstances in real life. A society that retains all classes of people also tend to flourish allot better over all as it improve all aspect of the economy. Specialisation might in some ways be better in the short term, but long term it will just stagnate any local society and overall empires to. So I would like some game mechanics that reflect this to some degree and show that the sum of the parts often are greater than the individual parts separately.
Posted by: Rabid_Cog
« on: October 13, 2019, 03:33:02 AM »

I think the problem is less the number of techs and more the exponential growth of costs which strongly disincentivises more 'realistic' progression. I hope we see some sort of overhaul of the tech system in v1.x.

Well to be honest, most people I have seen on Youtube, playing are using research labs ineffectively.
Whats the point of having 20 labs on one tech, when 10 of these only cuts a few months of the research time?

It is better to research on a broad front maybe using 2-4 labs per tech.
2 labs cuts the research time in half. Thats a good investment.
4 labs cuts the time to a quarter. Half the investment gain per lab, compared to the above.

You get the idea...

That reasoning is mathematically suspect. Doubling the number of labs halves the time. That is always true, so why is 1 -> 2 a better investement than 2 -> 4? Remember, if the research finishes earlier, it also releases your labs earlier to do other stuff.

The thing you are trying to optimize is "at date XYZ, what is the most technologies I can have?" It doesnt matter how you spread your labs, assuming everything you put labs into completes by that time (ie. you dont leave anything half done), how you distribute your labs has no impact on anything except the order in which you unlock the technologies. However, we all agree having techs is better than not having them, so putting all your labs into fewer techs first means you unlock those specific techs earlier and the others at the same time as you otherwise would. A strictly superior outcome.

The real reason it is absolutely the right move the spread research out with 1-2 labs per tech is that scientists are far more likely to get skill increases if they are working, doesnt really matter how many labs they are working on as far as I am aware. Its the difference between having a single 50% bonus scientist after 10 years and having five of them. Or even higher. And that % bonus results in an absolute decrease in total research time.
Posted by: MJOne
« on: October 13, 2019, 02:22:34 AM »

I think the problem is less the number of techs and more the exponential growth of costs which strongly disincentivises more 'realistic' progression. I hope we see some sort of overhaul of the tech system in v1.x.

Well to be honest, most people I have seen on Youtube, playing are using research labs ineffectively.
Whats the point of having 20 labs on one tech, when 10 of these only cuts a few months of the research time?

It is better to research on a broad front maybe using 2-4 labs per tech.
2 labs cuts the research time in half. Thats a good investment.
4 labs cuts the time to a quarter. Half the investment gain per lab, compared to the above.

You get the idea...
Posted by: Scandinavian
« on: October 12, 2019, 07:04:39 PM »

It's easier to call them what they are - workers catering to the needs of the people, and workers catering to the need of the nation. The present labels just do not fit. Even something like Civilian/Commercial Sector and Government/State Sector is better. Unless it's hard-coded in, though, allowing the player to simply rename the sectors to whatever they want may be an acceptable compromise.
What the "manufacturing sector" currently represents is the empire's military-industrial complex, and if we are going for functional names, that is what I would suggest. It is incorrect to call it the government sector or state sector, as it does not include things like teachers or doctors, which in most industrial cultures are predominantly government workers.

Precisely how to split specific job functions between the "environmental" and "service" sectors is best left to the player's imagination in the current version - the important point is that their total share of the workforce grows as the planet becomes more hostile (you need more atmosphere scrubber techs and doctors to treat complications and accidents). The distinction is perhaps best seen as not actually representing an economic distinction we would recognize in the national accounts, but rather a way to make it transparent to the player why one planet has a smaller workforce available to the armaments sector than another.

In general, I am with the people who encourage not giving overly specific interpretations to the different parts of the economic model. It simply does not have the kind of granularity you'd need for that.
Posted by: QuakeIV
« on: October 12, 2019, 01:35:26 PM »

I don't really see a huge upside to renaming the sectors, I too would prefer more functional names such as 'manufacturing' since that is a little more common to any given high tech society, regardless of how its organized.  I mean, maybe service could be renamed to something else, since I doubt a huge colony of semi sentient ant slaves would have such a thing?  I don't really think its really worth any degree of hassle though.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: October 12, 2019, 07:09:22 AM »

I say it is neither of those things... it is just a mechanic of what the player controls and don't control. Exactly what each category or part of it is depend entirely on what society you imagine they belong to and how you approach using them as a player. The service sector are basically the part of the population the player simply have no control over and represent most of the private and public sector in form of commercial goods, schools, entertainment, agriculture etc... the manufacturing part is the part the player can influence by deciding what these people do for a living, this can be represented as a free market economy, closed communal society or a hive mind... it really does not matter what it is... it is just a difference on what the player can control and what they can't.

One part is the service sector the other manufacturing sector, these have no real meaning or ties to reality in that sense.
Posted by: SevenOfCarina
« on: October 12, 2019, 01:43:26 AM »

And I think we shouldn't do any of those things.

The names Agriculture/Environment, Manufacturing, and Service describe what they do.  Not only does your proposed renaming obscure their functions, but your political labels are factually wrong for my empire of Utopian Communist silicate-based rock people.  And my hive-mind machine race.  And my tribal warlord pirate faction.

On top of which, I point out that the term "Public School" means literally the opposite in the US as it does in the UK.  Replacing a label that clearly describes function with one upon which we disagree about what it does mean, what it should mean, and what it could mean is a bad idea.

I don't think that's quite fair. The 'manufacturing' sector does a lot more than just manufacturing, and let me bring up Steve's current campaign to demonstrate this.

The manufacturing sector has 312.5 million workers. Research and Development is not a manufacturing industry. Mines and Financial Centres are not manufacturing industries.  That's 90 million workers and 28.8% of the worker population not performing manufacturing activities in the so-called manufacturing sector.

Let's look at the Martian Republic from the Aftermath Campaign.

40 million scientists, 24 million miners, and 6 million financial centre workers - 70 million of the 150 million strong labour force, nearly half the 'manufacturing population' is not actually performing manufacturing activities. It gets worse if you include maintenance workers as non-manufacturing labour force, which they traditionally have been.

The Manufacturing Sector appears to represent the proportion of the working population whose employment is directly controlled by the player, while the Service Sector is there just to limit the population directly under our control, and does nothing. It's easier to call them what they are - workers catering to the needs of the people, and workers catering to the need of the nation. The present labels just do not fit. Even something like Civilian/Commercial Sector and Government/State Sector is better. Unless it's hard-coded in, though, allowing the player to simply rename the sectors to whatever they want may be an acceptable compromise.

Posted by: Father Tim
« on: October 11, 2019, 01:27:04 PM »

And I think we shouldn't do any of those things.

The names Agriculture/Environment, Manufacturing, and Service describe what they do.  Not only does your proposed renaming obscure their functions, but your political labels are factually wrong for my empire of Utopian Communist silicate-based rock people.  And my hive-mind machine race.  And my tribal warlord pirate faction.

On top of which, I point out that the term "Public School" means literally the opposite in the US as it does in the UK.  Replacing a label that clearly describes function with one upon which we disagree about what it does mean, what it should mean, and what it could mean is a bad idea.

- - - -

Removing the Ag/Env worker requirement for Colony Cost bodies would vastly increase the available space real estate.  It would eliminate most of the need for exploration, and virtually all of the need for expansion.  With populations producing endless free infrastructure, civilian shipping moving it around for free, and mass drivers moving refined minerals for free, there would be no need for population to ever leave the home system.  An empire could survey neighbour systems, mine everything and mass driver it to a collection point, ship it through the jump point, and mass driver it to final destination.

With no Ag/Env sector, Venus is as habitable as Earth.  All you have to do is send 1 Infrastructure and 0.000001 Population (in millions) and the civilians will do the rest.

I do not think that removing one of the major constraints of the game is a good idea.
Posted by: SevenOfCarina
« on: October 11, 2019, 10:24:33 AM »

I like that thought.

While we're at it, I think we should probably rename the Manufacturing Sector to the Public Sector and the Service Sector to the Private Sector, respectively, since that is far more indicative of what they actually are. The Agriculture/Environment Sector could probably be just eliminated entirely, since, IMO, the massive reduction in available workers for even moderate colony cost worlds is painful when playing a campaign with few, or no garden worlds around. We're already paying for terrible planetary conditions with more infrastructure, and there's never going to be linear increase in the workers needed to deal with that problem.

Oh, and wealth should probably be generated by the Private Sector (Service Sector) population, not the Public Sector (Manufacturing Sector) population as it currently is, but at a rate that is modified by the percentage of the manufacturing population employed in TN industries. It nicely fixes the realism issue without leading to excessive early wealth production.

It'll be nice to have the game properly model demographics, but that's going to be a hard sell.
Posted by: Tikigod
« on: October 09, 2019, 07:30:23 PM »

This is entirely a personal preference of how I'd probably go about it in my own project more than a suggestion for what I think would be a better approach for Aurora, but I think a good way to go about it would be to treat weapons tech progression similar to how Aurora already handles engine drive tech progression... but just with a bit more width to it.

So there would a underlining high cost 'theoretical field' research which also provides some underlining advantage damage buff to a series of weapon types related to that field (The Aurora equivalent of this I suppose would be in the case of explosive missiles that the the warhead damage per MSP is increased or whatever other variable another weapons equivalent to that stat may be).

Once the theoretical field research tech is done a series of sub-techs are made accessible that relate to a very specific weapons branch, so a kinetic/explosives field research tech being completed would then open up one or two layers of techs for improving the various performance stats of missile, gauss and whatever other flavour of weapons you want to throw in. These sub-techs would be relatively small cost compared to its parent research project (25% of the parent tech sounds pretty reasonable if the theory were to exist in a Aurora scenario).

The player then has some choice about focusing strongly on the slow grind through the hefty theoretical field projects in one or more categories of weapons in a big push and then blitz the sub-techs after, or more optimise the performance at each stage then cross over into another weapons field and do the same until each are at a equivalent point and then repeat the process for the next stage.

As the sub-techs are relatively low cost, there is quite the incentive to specialise in a particular weapons field as it would return the biggest performance return in very frequent bursts once the underlining field tech was completed. However because each field tech covers a entire category of weapons related to that area, generalising and putting aside the sub-techs could provide a entirely different (but still effective in its own way) experience providing high damage weapon choices across multiple categories, but at the cost of secondary stat performance in each weapon type.
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