Based on what I know (from the wiki and from here), I see the situation something like this:
1. I need a huge powerful active search sensor, which will be located on a huge powerful station, which will be a heavy and very armored fleet base. This will allow me to make this sensor huge, and less fear that the station will be destroyed by the enemy (it takes a lot of missiles to shred the armor of a huge station).
The sensor requirements are the ability to detect ships from 3000t at a distance 1.5 times longer than the range of my missiles.
You can also place a huge low-resolution sensor on it to detect enemy missiles.
2. At what distance will active sensors not detect my 100-200t platform with passive sensors?
I would place these at a distance of 2-10m from the jump points through which the enemy will pass ...
3. On two-stage rockets - a question.
Do I understand correctly that if the target of the missile is destroyed, then the active sensor will redirect the missile to the largest available target?
It turns out that after the destruction of targets, many missiles of subsequent volleys will be directed exclusively at the largest ship? I would not like it to be some kind of cargo ship ...
4. I am only worried about one thing - there was a bug or a feature with the self-destruction of a two-stage missile after losing a target ...
I would be very grateful if you can tell how it works.
Regarding "regular" missiles - to be honest, I'm not sure if I want to use them.
The problem with conventional rockets is that:
- they absolutely uselessly spend a lot of fuel flying at high speed to the enemy (if they fly 50 million km, but in fact, high speed is needed only for the last 2 million km.
- If their target is destroyed, they self-destruct, or you need to put sensors on each of them - which is not economical.
Even when using rockets of the same size, adding a second stage, and thus placing an economical engine and sensors on the first stage, makes a lot of sense, I think.
If we are talking about single-stage missiles - I see only one scenario for their effective use - for conducting combat operations at close range. This will allow missiles to be launched as effective as two-stage combat missiles, but this requires the creation of ships moving at high speed (so that you can keep a distance from the enemy with beam weapons), and with powerful anti-missile defenses.
Thus, it seems to me that the most advantageous variant of warfare is to shoot two-stage missiles from the maximum distance.
In addition, this will allow the use of powerful combat stations.
I believe so. It is a weakness of active sensor missiles.I agree, it really looks like a weak point. On the other hand, except for the situation when the largest ship inside the navy is some kind of commercial (by the way, I personally would do this in my fleet, I would also hang large sensors on it so that it shines brightly! and more engines, so that any sensors determine it as a priority)
Please keep in mind - when Steve designed how missiles worked, one of the key principles was that even if you are using complicated ideas involving sensors there still needs to be an element of gameplay which makes the player using missiles have to actually plan their firing intelligently. Estimating how many missiles to use on each enemy ship to kill everything without wasting ordnance is a core part of the gameplay, and even sensor missiles are not able to avoid it. This is why I keep recommending - use simple missiles (just warhead, engine, fuel, agility) until you are familiar with the game, then start playing around with the clever tricks like sensor and two-stage missiles once you can intuit how these interact with the core mechanics of the game.
Bug if the first stage has a sensor, working as intended if the first stage is "dumb" (no sensor)Does the error in any way relate to the second stage? Those. if you launch conventional missiles with sensors, will they fly to the point of the last target anyway, even if the target is lost?
For example, at roughly Ion Drive tech level (8k to 10k RP techs), a single-stage "dumb" missile could look like this:I wanted to ask, by the way, what speed should I aim for ideally? I understand that the more, the better, but still, there is some optimal speed, taking into account the point defense (there seems to be 10 thousand km / s tracking), above which the return from increasing the speed does not grow too much?
Warhead MSP: 0.80
Engine MSP: 2.31 @ 3.90x EP modifier (max 5x)
Fuel MSP: 0.48375
Agility MSP: 0.40625
Total Size: 4.0 MSP
Speed: 28,150 km/s
Range: 40 million km
Hit%: 95.71% against 5000 km/s target
These are just numbers I have pulled from my missile design spreadsheet. If you want to reduce the range to something like 2m km and use a two-stage design, then you are looking at something like (still "dumb" missiles):
First Stage
Second Stage MSP: 3.0
Engine MSP: 0.86 @ 2.75x EP modifier (max 5x)
Fuel MSP: 0.14
Agility MSP: 0.0
Total Size: 4.0 MSP
Speed: 7,400 km/s
Range: 38 million km
Separation distance: 2m km
Second Stage
Warhead MSP: 0.80
Engine MSP: 2.12 @ 5.0x EP modifier (max 5x)
Fuel MSP: 0.056562
Agility MSP: 0.023438
Total Size: 3.0 MSP
Speed: 43,133 km/s
Range: 2 million km
Hit%: 97.1% against 5000 km/s target
The second stage definitely gives better combat performance, but the first stage is only 1/4 as fast as the single-stage missile, and to get this amount of performance you are actually spending more gallicite (which is used in all engines, including missile engines) which is quite a precious resource for a missile-based fleet. Ultimately, each design has its own pros and cons, and these are only examples as you can do a lot more, but I simply want to illustrate that single-stage missiles are really perfectly fine and not something to be worried about as "inefficient".
I agree, it really looks like a weak point. On the other hand, except for the situation when the largest ship inside the navy is some kind of commercial (by the way, I personally would do this in my fleet, I would also hang large sensors on it so that it shines brightly! and more engines, so that any sensors determine it as a priority)
The question is, what is the alternative?
If the distance between the volleys is large enough, then even if the large ship selected automatically is a useless truck, it will be destroyed rather quickly due to its low armor, and the next volleys will be redirected to other ships.
If there are no sensors, all missiles aimed at the destroyed ships will simply disappear.
Does the error in any way relate to the second stage? Those. if you launch conventional missiles with sensors, will they fly to the point of the last target anyway, even if the target is lost?
I wanted to ask, by the way, what speed should I aim for ideally? I understand that the more, the better, but still, there is some optimal speed, taking into account the point defense (there seems to be 10 thousand km / s tracking), above which the return from increasing the speed does not grow too much?
Roughly speaking, which is better - 200 missiles at a speed of 30 thousand km / s or 300 at a speed of 20 thousand km / s? I understand that everything depends on the defense systems of the enemy fleet, and nevertheless?
HM. I used a calculator from the forum, I'm not sure if I picked up the same parameters as yours, but they are close.
In general, all this is very interesting, I will try different options!
Usually the way most people tend to handle this is to estimate how many missiles they need to destroy each target, and spread their fire so that each salvo is targeting a different ship. There's a few ways to do this depending on your missile doctrine but generally this is a good approach. That way, the following waves are not adversely affected by the previous waves - all missiles targeting a single ship will impact at the same time. If some ships survive, they will be badly damaged and a second wave can clean up the mess easily.Yes, I've thought about it, and on the one hand it seems like the smartest approach ...
In general, the more speed you can get the better as this improves the ability to avoid enemy point defense. The general rule of thumb I would follow is to select a missile design that scores 95% to 100% hit rate on your intended target (i.e. against an enemy at a specific speed), with the desired warhead and fuel range, and then once you achieve this maximize the speed while keeping all other desired characteristics.95-100%? This means that a lot needs to be invested in maneuverability ... Doesn't it increase the likelihood of avoiding enemy missile defense?
On one hand, more missiles means you will be more likely to break through the point defense. On the other hand, more missiles usually means smaller missiles which means individual missiles will deal less damage. Generally, size doesn't correlate that much with missile speed because it really depends on all aspects of the design. Bigger warhead? Less room for a big engine. More range? More fuel, less room for an engine. Sensors? ECM/ECCM? Less room for an engine... this is why you want to optimize usually for the engine/speed, as it is the most free parameter once you select the warhead, range, target speed, etc.[/quote]
Yes, I've thought about it, and on the one hand it seems like the smartest approach ...
On the other hand, I am sure that an ideal assessment is impossible, and there will certainly be volleys that will be wasted.
Plus there is a big risk of overdoing it and destroying a ship with one salvo, wasting most of the missiles of this salvo in vain. In general, ideally, somehow find out the capabilities of the enemy's missile defense before the launch of the main combat missiles.
95-100%? This means that a lot needs to be invested in maneuverability ... Doesn't it increase the likelihood of avoiding enemy missile defense?
By the way, the question is ... what happens first - the calculation of missile hits (depending on their chance of hits) or the shots of the last line of defense at 10,000 km?
Because I assume that the defense shoots first, which means that speed may be more important than maneuverability ... I wanted to clarify here)
Yes, I understand, I have already worked with the calculator. So far there are more questions than answers :)
I will try to create the best ship for protection against missiles, this will allow me to at least roughly calculate, taking into account the tonnage, how many missiles per salvo can be shot down by the NPR fleet. But, probably, there can be only one conclusion from this - you need to have 2-3 times more fleet in order to be guaranteed to have as many missiles as the enemy simply will not be able to shoot down.
You can go for a trick - before the launch of powerful missiles, fire at the enemy with many volleys of small and weak missiles in order to exhaust the enemy's anti-missile defense and at the same time find out its ABM capabilities :)
An important question arose ... can I change the type of missiles during the battle? Let's say, at a distance of 100 million km - use some missiles, and at 70 million km - use others?
And the second question ... How to at least roughly calculate how many missiles, for example, with a 16 warhead are needed to destroy a ship with 3 armor?
I still had thoughts about the concept of the struggle of war.
An important question arose ... can I change the type of missiles during the battle? Let's say, at a distance of 100 million km - use some missiles, and at 70 million km - use others?
And the second question ... How to at least roughly calculate how many missiles, for example, with a 16 warhead are needed to destroy a ship with 3 armor?
An important question arose ... can I change the type of missiles during the battle? Let's say, at a distance of 100 million km - use some missiles, and at 70 million km - use others?
Yes.
Yes, assuming that you have the various different missiles present in your magazine, this can be done more or less on the fly, just drag the new missile onto the launcher in the combat window. You have to do it for EACH launcher tho.
An important question arose ... can I change the type of missiles during the battle? Let's say, at a distance of 100 million km - use some missiles, and at 70 million km - use others?
Yes.Yes, assuming that you have the various different missiles present in your magazine, this can be done more or less on the fly, just drag the new missile onto the launcher in the combat window. You have to do it for EACH launcher tho.
This is great, thanks!
An important clarification: do I have to have rockets of a different model in the clip of the ship that fires them, or is it enough to have them on a rocket supply ship in the same fleet?
How long will it take to transfer missiles from the missile depot ship to the warships?
If you can use this, it is very useful information! After all, it is possible, at the farthest distance, to fire at the enemy with small missiles to neutralize missile defense, then use missiles with a range of 100 million without sensors, directing missiles at individual ships, then - 80 million km - with sensors. Thus, the best missiles will remain at the end of the battle. Or maybe they won't be needed :)
Ordinance can be moved from the depot ships to the fighting ships, but the rate is determined by the ordinance module(s) used. IIRC each module can rearm 1 ship at a time, and it tends to take a number of hours per ship (exact number depending of course on the size of the magazine and the rate of resupply of the module). For my Punishment Squadron the exercise took two Armoury class colliers (1 module each) a little less than a week to fully replenish 4 BBs 8 BCs 4 CLEs and 12 DDGs. The colliers were pretty early tech but the missile ships had more modern magazines
Ordinance can be moved from the depot ships to the fighting ships, but the rate is determined by the ordinance module(s) used. IIRC each module can rearm 1 ship at a time, and it tends to take a number of hours per ship (exact number depending of course on the size of the magazine and the rate of resupply of the module). For my Punishment Squadron the exercise took two Armoury class colliers (1 module each) a little less than a week to fully replenish 4 BBs 8 BCs 4 CLEs and 12 DDGs. The colliers were pretty early tech but the missile ships had more modern magazines
Ouch. That is, even having separate ships with a large supply of missiles, my ships will not be able to use them instantly?
Somewhere on the wiki I read that they can ...
But this already changes everything.
From the wikipedia article:
Loading missiles during battle
Transferring missiles between ships or a ship and the planetary depot happens instantaneously. That might be unrealistic but feel free to exploit it by reloading your warship's magazines during battle from other ships or a dedicated ammo transport (collier). Adding a collier to a task group has the advantage of adding a lot of ammo depth while keeping your warship's size down.
This is not true? Or I misunderstood it?
If the transfer of missiles does not happen instantly, then this greatly changes the requirements for the fleet. The tactics options described earlier (implying 50-100 volleys each) disappear.
The value of each missile is greatly increased. It probably follows from this that you need to equip all missiles with sensors
When it comes to missiles then I use allot of house rules as missiles in Aurora can be quite broken at times if you don't. The best way to fight an NPR is with small crafts 500-2000t that dodge under their sensors and release missiles at medium distance. ECM is extremely effective from level 3 and up against NPRs that can't design proper AMM to counter them, you then just target their beam PD ships as the AI always build dedicated platforms so you should use that to your benefit. After that you can just pluck out their remaining ships with more effective missiles they can't shoot down with AMM. If you want to game the system a 2000-2500t missile corvette with box launchers and a commercial carrier with commercial hangars and deep magazines is the way to go. Add a good amount of fast scouts to detect the opponent and then you can strike at them at your leisure with a relatively cheap fleet. Just make sure the missile corvette have the maintenance needed for your operation as commercial carriers can't maintain them, but they will take care of deployment (if I remember correctly). Design one type of missiles to take out the PD ships and then another to take out the rest. The ones that take out the PD ships could be half size so put two in a single missile that simply split immediately once they are fired. Maybe a size 8 launcher so size 4 against the PD ships and size 8 against the rest of the fleet.I don't really want to use mechanics that use a "dishonest" way of dealing with AI based on knowledge of its algorithms ...
The question is off topic ... what does it mean to play with "human opponents"?
There is no multiplayer option (I can't even imagine how to implement it normally) or something like that.
Or are there several options for the type of AI?
I don't really want to use mechanics that use a "dishonest" way of dealing with AI based on knowledge of its algorithms ...
And yet, here I do not understand everything.
1) How to understand which of the enemy ships are anti-missile? By mass? Or by first firing at them?
How do I understand how much the enemy has in general to destroy missiles?
2) What is the best way to estimate in advance how many missiles I will need in a salvo? I looked at the ship designs on the wiki, and I can conclude that on average 6000t anti-missile ships are capable of shooting down about 10 missiles / salvo (in their worst case).
Is it possible to somehow determine in advance how many% of the enemy ships are anti-missile?
Roughly speaking, I know that the enemy's fleet is 200 thousand tons. Based on this, can I roughly understand what size of a salvo will be sufficient?
3) Why are 2000-2500t missile corvettes a good choice?Bigger ships are more efficient in many cases, but the idea is to fire the missiles without being detected.
As I understand it, the larger the ship, the more profitable it is to place many things on it. For example, armor, shields.
The only possible plus of small missile corvettes is that if the enemy has few missile salvos, and they are large, then many enemy missiles will be wasted.
But, if instead of 100 corvettes there are 4 missile cruisers of 50,000 in size, and 10 missile defense ships - 5,000 tons each - then there may not be any losses at all, due to powerful missile defense and armor.
The idea of a rocket that instantly splits into two is very interesting! How to set them up correctly? Is the separation radius greater than the fire distance?
I don't really want to use mechanics that use a "dishonest" way of dealing with AI based on knowledge of its algorithms ...
And yet, here I do not understand everything.
1) How to understand which of the enemy ships are anti-missile? By mass? Or by first firing at them?
How do I understand how much the enemy has in general to destroy missiles?
2) What is the best way to estimate in advance how many missiles I will need in a salvo? I looked at the ship designs on the wiki, and I can conclude that on average 6000t anti-missile ships are capable of shooting down about 10 missiles / salvo (in their worst case).
Is it possible to somehow determine in advance how many% of the enemy ships are anti-missile?
Roughly speaking, I know that the enemy's fleet is 200 thousand tons. Based on this, can I roughly understand what size of a salvo will be sufficient?
3) Why are 2000-2500t missile corvettes a good choice?
As I understand it, the larger the ship, the more profitable it is to place many things on it. For example, armor, shields.
The only possible plus of small missile corvettes is that if the enemy has few missile salvos, and they are large, then many enemy missiles will be wasted.
But, if instead of 100 corvettes there are 4 missile cruisers of 50,000 in size, and 10 missile defense ships - 5,000 tons each - then there may not be any losses at all, due to powerful missile defense and armor.
The idea of a rocket that instantly splits into two is very interesting! How to set them up correctly? Is the separation radius greater than the fire distance?
by them firing at your missiles (so yes, you have the fire at them first). If you detect the ship/salvo with your active sensors the event log will tell you which ship fired which weapons.1. Hmm. In this case, I will need sensors that can detect missiles at a short distance. Either the missiles will need to be equipped with sensors capable of detecting anti-missile defenses, or somehow a small sensor ship capable of detecting missiles will need to be placed near the enemy.
even if you only detect the AMM after they where fired you will see the missiles grouped by salvos (e.g. if you see 5 events "Size 1 Missile x11", and 3 events "Size 1 Missile x5",
I would look if there is a class with 5 ships and a class with 3 ships at the origin point. There are cases where the enemy will not fire full salvos, but you can deduce some hints
in most cases.
You can't rely estimate the capabilities of your enemy without fighting:2. I believe that having started a war, it will be too late to conduct reconnaissance. Therefore, I do not see any way to figure out this information, other than saving / loading.
- You need the know the speed of the enemy AMM, the enemy AMM salvos size, the number of enemy AMM ships and how many often the enemy fleet can fire AMM at your salvos, to estimate how many of your missiles will survive the enemy AMMs
- You need to know the number of enemy beam PD-Ships, the number of PD shots per ship, and the to-hit-chance for each weapon, to estimate how many of you missiles will survive the beam PD
- You need to know the to-hit-chance of your missiles, the number of armor of the enemy ships
Some information can be deduced by observing the enemy (speed of enemy ships, indicate engine tech => missile speed)
Bigger ships are more efficient in many cases, but the idea is to fire the missiles without being detected.3. The idea is really interesting. This, in fact, provides the same benefits as long range fire, at which the enemy will not reach me.
A 2500t ship is much harder to detect as a bigger ships, especially if the enemy has no sensors searching for small ships
Something the situation is starting to cause concern in me.
1. First, I am not doing well with diplomacy.
I created diplomatic ships, but when I send them to the NPR-owned system, they ask me to leave and the relationship falls. I do not understand what kind of action I have to take in order for the relationship to begin to improve.
2. I see that NPR has a huge fleet on its launch system. This is a total of over 100 ships. Most of them have a tonnage of about 21 thousand tons. I'm not sure if they are all military or civilian, but if at least a third of them are military, I have no idea how to resist such a fleet.
I started out on the default "traditional empire" setting, and it's been 39 years since I started. I am still colonizing - building mines and factories, and trying to increase resource extraction.
And what is better in the future to destroy enemy commercial ships?
I suppose spending conventional missiles on them, the same as on warships, is too expensive.
Make sure your Diplomacy ship have commercial engines and is about 10kt or less, that would mean it have no impact on negative diplomacy.My diplomatic ship has commercial engines, 1 diplomacy module, 1 sensor size 1 each ... I can't imagine how you can make it even smaller.
Well, you should be able to simply avoid them by making sure you don't encroach on their territory until you have a large and powerful fleet. That NPR also quite often divide their fleet into smaller parts so you can defeat it in detail. The issue with NPR is that it is not very good at scouting versus a human, so you should be able to deal with it eventually. But it might take some time and patience.
Make sure your Diplomacy ship have commercial engines and is about 10kt or less, that would mean it have no impact on negative diplomacy.My diplomatic ship has commercial engines, 1 diplomacy module, 1 sensor size 1 each ... I can't imagine how you can make it even smaller.
Well, you should be able to simply avoid them by making sure you don't encroach on their territory until you have a large and powerful fleet. That NPR also quite often divide their fleet into smaller parts so you can defeat it in detail. The issue with NPR is that it is not very good at scouting versus a human, so you should be able to deal with it eventually. But it might take some time and patience.
I think I can already start building my fleet.
Question: do I understand correctly that I do not need to have a weapon guidance system on a ship with a weapon?
Can I use some ships as fire control systems and others as weapon platforms?
Every weapon requires a fire control on the same ship. You can assign multiple weapons to the same fire control (unless it is a single-weapon control, of course), but the weapon and fire control have to be on the same ship.Hmm ... apparently I was misinformed again by the outdated wikipedia ...
However, the Active Sensor used to identify and spot targets can be on any ship. As long as one ship of your race has a sensor lock then all ships of your race can fire at the target if they are in range.
Hmm ... apparently I was misinformed again by the outdated wikipedia ...
Do I understand correctly that 1 fire control system provides the ability to produce 1 salvo?
And if I have large-tonnage missile cruisers, do I need several fire control systems on them so that I can distribute volleys from 10 of my ships to 20 enemy ones?
And another question: will it not be too costly if I first build a fleet of missile ships without a fire control system, and then, by re-equipment, add it to them?
The fact is that I already have the technologies of rocket launchers, armor and engines, but good sensor technologies have not yet been researched.
If I make a two-stage rocket that splits immediately after firing (i.e. splits immediately more than the distance at which it will initially be from the enemy) - will this work fine?
I read in some thread that someone ran into a bug that the missiles were not separated in the end, and the first stage continued to fly towards the target ..
1. I need non-rocket warships to combat enemy commercial shipping and small fleets.
These will be fast (7-8 thousand km / s) 10 thousand. ton destroyers.
The question is, what kind of offensive weapon should I arm them with? So far, apart from missiles, only Gauss cannons have been researched a little. Are they suitable for my tasks? Or do you need to invest at least 10-20 thousand RP in, for example, railguns?
Weapon objectives:
- Destruction of commercial ships.
- Destruction of the unfinished remnants of the enemy fleet (for which it would be a pity to waste missiles).
- It is desirable - that I with this fleet could carry out support for ground forces / orbital bombardment.
And are turrets needed in this case, if the speed of the ships will exceed the speed of the enemy?
3. Does it make sense to create 250-500t fighters filled with sensors? Or ships of 2000-2500 tons of tonnage are quite suitable?
4. Which table for calculating the range of sensors is correct?
I saw a topic on the forum where such a table was discussed, but wrote about the changes and its relevance.
I would be grateful for the link!)
My If you only need weapons to destroy commercial ships and you don't want to waist missiles, i would recommend Plasma Carronades. The first one, 15cm i think, dose 6 damage and will pen 3 layers of armor. Most commercial ships only have 1 layer.
For cleaning up disabled enemy ships, you can still use Plasma carronades, but their biggest drawback is range, and just because a ship is disabled dose not mean it can not shoot back, so longer range weapons like railguns or laser would be my recommendation. That said, Plasma Carronades will still work perfectly fine. Plasma carronades have the added benefit of being the cheapest beam weapon to research, and you only need the first tech level.
side note, if you are going all missiles you probably want to research plasma carronades anyway for STOs and to increase your ground force racial damage.
3) yes i believe it is and i use sensor fighters all the time in addition to dedicated sensor ships. My dedicated sensor ships might have 2-3k tons of sensors alone, but that's my design preference.
4) https://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg102701#msg102701
1. I have a question about combat mechanics ...
Do I understand correctly that the accuracy of energy and kinetic weapons is related to the ratio of the speed of my ship and that of the enemy? Accordingly, if I want to make small effective melee ships, they must be fast - presumably 7-8 thousand km / s?
Will this speed be taken into account when firing if I order my ships to get as close as possible to shoot the enemy?
Plasma carronades are an interesting idea ... to be honest, I was thinking about railguns at first (after reading the wiki article) - they seem to do the maximum damage / s per unit of weight. However, on the other hand, carronades give maximum damage per shot, especially at the closest possible distance.I too like railguns, but if you are concerned about RP cost and do not want to heavily invest into beam weapons, plasma area good option.
In this regard, the question. Will I be able to give the order "to be at a distance of 10000 km" from the enemy in order to shoot closely?
3. Thank you ... the only thing I don't like about the idea with fighters is the need to create a carrier for them (
1. I have a question about combat mechanics . . .
Do I understand correctly that the accuracy of energy and kinetic weapons is related to the ratio of the speed of my ship and that of the enemy? Accordingly, if I want to make small effective melee ships, they must be fast - presumably 7-8 thousand km / s?
Will this speed be taken into account when firing if I order my ships to get as close as possible to shoot the enemy?
1. I have a question about combat mechanics ...
Do I understand correctly that the accuracy of energy and kinetic weapons is related to the ratio of the speed of my ship and that of the enemy? Accordingly, if I want to make small effective melee ships, they must be fast - presumably 7-8 thousand km / s?