Sensor design, questions from a beginner

[Migi]

Ordinance can be moved from the depot ships to the fighting ships, but the rate is determined by the ordinance module(s) used.  IIRC each module can rearm 1 ship at a time, and it tends to take a number of hours per ship (exact number depending of course on the size of the magazine and the rate of resupply of the module).  For my Punishment Squadron the exercise took two Armoury class colliers (1 module each) a little less than a week to fully replenish 4 BBs 8 BCs 4 CLEs and 12 DDGs.  The colliers were pretty early tech but the missile ships had more modern magazines

Ouch. That is, even having separate ships with a large supply of missiles, my ships will not be able to use them instantly?
Somewhere on the wiki I read that they can ...
But this already changes everything.

From the wikipedia article:
Loading missiles during battle
Transferring missiles between ships or a ship and the planetary depot happens instantaneously. That might be unrealistic but feel free to exploit it by reloading your warship's magazines during battle from other ships or a dedicated ammo transport (collier). Adding a collier to a task group has the advantage of adding a lot of ammo depth while keeping your warship's size down.

This is not true? Or I misunderstood it?

If the transfer of missiles does not happen instantly, then this greatly changes the requirements for the fleet. The tactics options described earlier (implying 50-100 volleys each) disappear.
The value of each missile is greatly increased. It probably follows from this that you need to equip all missiles with sensors

Instant transfer of fuel, maintenance supplies and missiles only applies to Aurora VB.
In Aurora C# this was changed so that you need special components and the transfer happens slowly, and you need to be stationary (until you start the underway replenishment tech line).
You should be wary of the wiki because most of the information there is from Aurora VB and it isn't clearly marked when things have changed.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Allot of stuff have been said in this thread and I will just chime in with my own thoughts on sensors and missiles as they have been brought up.

About active sensors.... as said you only every need them for missile and beam fire-controls to lock on to a target. Active sensors are also almost always going to give away your position so you should always try not to use them at the same location of your main battle fleet if possible. You should rely on sensor scouts for most of your sensor needs. You also need to remember that you need four times the active strength to double the scanning distance, this make multiple small sensor much more powerful than big sensors.

This means that having a lot of smaller sensor crafts is generally better than a few big ones. If you are on the same tech level as that of your opponent a size 5 (250t) EM sensor will generally detect a res 1 active before the passive scout is detected by said active sensor. This means that a 250t EM sensor are relatively optimal for a small scout in those cases as they will detect any other resolution sensor at much greater distances. I generally use 300t EM sensors for my main EM scouts if possible for that very reasons, if I need to cover a bigger area I just deploy more of them. A size 1 (50t) EM sensor is enough to detect a resolution 100 sensor if that is important.

The most important thing with scouting is otherwise passive sensors and a combination of thermal and EM sensors. NPRs are not super smart so the higher their tech level the easier they are to detect as they almost always fly around at max speed. I play allot of human vs human factions games so that is allot more nuanced and dynamic which make the scouting a bit more fun.

You should always design you active sensors as a counter to what type of ships an opponent are using. If you don't have that information then you can settle on basically Res 1 and Res 80-120 for NPR as they rarely use smaller ships. Against human opponents or role-play you probably should have Res 1,5,20 and 120 or something to cover all the bases until you know more about the opponents ship configurations.

You should never engage an opponent on equal terms, that is why scouts are so important. That is also why I don't like discussing in those terms. You should simply not even fire any missiles or engaging unless you are sure you can seriously hurt your opponent, anything else just put yourself at a greater risk. This is also why I don't like the argument of overly fast engines for en entire fleet (even beam fleets)... all you need at the end of the day is a bigger stick at the right place... also, planets and colonies don't move so fast so you don't need much speed to catch them. If the opponent must retreat all the time there eventually is not more places to retreat to anyway.

When it comes to missiles then I use allot of house rules as missiles in Aurora can be quite broken at times if you don't. The best way to fight an NPR is with small crafts 500-2000t that dodge under their sensors and release missiles at medium distance. ECM is extremely effective from level 3 and up against NPRs that can't design proper AMM to counter them, you then just target their beam PD ships as the AI always build dedicated platforms so you should use that to your benefit. After that you can just pluck out their remaining ships with more effective missiles they can't shoot down with AMM. If you want to game the system a 2000-2500t missile corvette with box launchers and a commercial carrier with commercial hangars and deep magazines is the way to go. Add a good amount of fast scouts to detect the opponent and then you can strike at them at your leisure with a relatively cheap fleet. Just make sure the missile corvette have the maintenance needed for your operation as commercial carriers can't maintain them, but they will take care of deployment (if I remember correctly). Design one type of missiles to take out the PD ships and then another to take out the rest. The ones that take out the PD ships could be half size so put two in a single missile that simply split immediately once they are fired. Maybe a size 8 launcher so size 4 against the PD ships and size 8 against the rest of the fleet.
Personally I would never do any of the above as it is not fun and I develop and deploy my fleet even against NPR as if I was playing against a human opponent using the same house rules as I do. For example, in realistic terms, there would always be restriction on the surface available for launch tubes which will always make box launchers way more restrictive in real life versus say a full launcher and where the full size launcher having the reload mechanism not taking up that much space on the surface of the ship. You could argue that in space you have no restriction in geometry, but you certainly will, as it ties into things like internal structure of a ship, engine propulsion mechanics, armour and shield coverage and so much more... This is why I always restrict launchers, weapons and other components to be more balanced. There are more leeway with stations but not by much, that is why super large stations (and ships) are not very effective in my campaigns as they simply have too much internal space I can't use for weapon systems. It also is why I like hangars in ships as that give me more space to put weapons into a ship design, stations in particular.

Speed of missiles actually is important as there always is a huge risk the firing platform is intercepted otherwise, perhaps not against NPRs as much, but certainly in human vs human games there is. This is why MIRV or a slower smaller part of a missile can be a huge risk unless deployed in a smart way.

Any way... sensors on missiles is really important for a few reasons. Thermal sensors is good for making sure you don't do overkill but it also is expensive to use them so think carefully, you are probably better of calculating the rough amount of missiles needed to disable or destroy a ship without using them. Active sensors have the problem of you not being able to control which ships they will taget, that is a huge issues and they are very expensive. ECM is the mos t effective sensor system by far.

Personally I have a rule that force me to put at least 0.5 MSP of sensors (typically ECM/ECCM) on any medium to long range ASM missile and 0.25 on any AMM, anti-FAC/Fighter or CQB missile or none to early really short ranged AMM missiles. But that is a house rule to represent the control and communications of any missile that the game really don't model.

From a game perspective using the mechanic as they are then full size launchers are really bad as they can easily be countered with beam PD and a small amount of AMM or in some cases just beam PD. The other issue in the game is the scaling of the Manoeuvre stat, I always flatten that curve in the DB so missiles remain roughly in the same shape throughout the game, making AMM more usable earlier in the game and not OP later on.

[Entaro (OP)]

The question is off topic ... what does it mean to play with "human opponents"?
There is no multiplayer option (I can't even imagine how to implement it normally) or something like that.

Or are there several options for the type of AI?

[Entaro (OP)]

When it comes to missiles then I use allot of house rules as missiles in Aurora can be quite broken at times if you don't. The best way to fight an NPR is with small crafts 500-2000t that dodge under their sensors and release missiles at medium distance. ECM is extremely effective from level 3 and up against NPRs that can't design proper AMM to counter them, you then just target their beam PD ships as the AI always build dedicated platforms so you should use that to your benefit. After that you can just pluck out their remaining ships with more effective missiles they can't shoot down with AMM. If you want to game the system a 2000-2500t missile corvette with box launchers and a commercial carrier with commercial hangars and deep magazines is the way to go. Add a good amount of fast scouts to detect the opponent and then you can strike at them at your leisure with a relatively cheap fleet. Just make sure the missile corvette have the maintenance needed for your operation as commercial carriers can't maintain them, but they will take care of deployment (if I remember correctly). Design one type of missiles to take out the PD ships and then another to take out the rest. The ones that take out the PD ships could be half size so put two in a single missile that simply split immediately once they are fired. Maybe a size 8 launcher so size 4 against the PD ships and size 8 against the rest of the fleet.

I don't really want to use mechanics that use a "dishonest" way of dealing with AI based on knowledge of its algorithms ...

And yet, here I do not understand everything.
1) How to understand which of the enemy ships are anti-missile? By mass? Or by first firing at them?
How do I understand how much the enemy has in general to destroy missiles?
2) What is the best way to estimate in advance how many missiles I will need in a salvo? I looked at the ship designs on the wiki, and I can conclude that on average 6000t anti-missile ships are capable of shooting down about 10 missiles / salvo (in their worst case).
Is it possible to somehow determine in advance how many% of the enemy ships are anti-missile?
Roughly speaking, I know that the enemy's fleet is 200 thousand tons. Based on this, can I roughly understand what size of a salvo will be sufficient?
3) Why are 2000-2500t missile corvettes a good choice?
As I understand it, the larger the ship, the more profitable it is to place many things on it. For example, armor, shields.
The only possible plus of small missile corvettes is that if the enemy has few missile salvos, and they are large, then many enemy missiles will be wasted.

But, if instead of 100 corvettes there are 4 missile cruisers of 50,000 in size, and 10 missile defense ships - 5,000 tons each - then there may not be any losses at all, due to powerful missile defense and armor.

The idea of ​​a rocket that instantly splits into two is very interesting! How to set them up correctly? Is the separation radius greater than the fire distance?

[nuclearslurpee]

The question is off topic ... what does it mean to play with "human opponents"?
There is no multiplayer option (I can't even imagine how to implement it normally) or something like that.

Or are there several options for the type of AI?

It is possible to control multiple player races by a single human player (yourself). It sounds like an awkward idea if you are not used to it (most modern strategic games do not support this) but once you get used to the idea it is a fun and unique way to play. The trick is, you have to not just play to "win" but rather roleplay and ask yourself how each race would behave in each situation instead of always doing what is "best" or most optimal.

Setting this up is as simple as starting the game with more than 1 player race, or at any time in an ongoing campaign activating SM mode and using the "Create Race" button in the system view window. There is also a checkbox in the Events window, if you leave SM mode on, which shows events from all player-controlled races so you will not miss notifications.

[bankshot]

I'm just getting my fleet started but you may find my doctrine useful so here it is:

Currently I'm at going beam-only but will eventually design missile ships.  My shipyards can handle up to 19,200 tons which I'm designating as "Light Cruisers".  CLs all share the same size, engines, speed, and shields.  Each fleet will consist of the following:

One Command cruiser:  Jump drive, flag bridge, one of each size 4.5 sensor (EM, Thermal, Res1, Res 6, Res 20, res 120).  4K tons of Hangar deck space. 
This ship is the jump tender, command/control ship, and homebase for my scout fighters.  The res1 sensor is for advanced warning of incoming missiles.  1 small cryo berth for picking up escape pods.

8x 500t scout fighters, 2 each with size 4.5 sensors (Thermal, Res6, Res20, Res120).  Res 6 detects fighters, Res 20 for FACs, and res 120 for large ships.  The fighters move at 5200 where the fleet moves at 4000.  They are expendable sensor platforms - fairly cheap to replace and they don't give away the fleet's location if detected. 

Six Beam cruisers: each with a res1 sensor for targeting.  With a mix of lasers for offense and gauss cannons for point defense/fighter swatting.

Once I start producing missiles I'll add

Three AMM ships:  Size 4.5 res1 sensor, Size 1 fast reload launchers, and magazines

Six ASM ships:  Size 5 20x slow reload launchers, magazines, one size 4.5 sensor either res 6, 20, or 120. 

By making the magazine size the same between the two missile carriers I may be able to have one shipyard churn out both types.


2x collier - commercial magazines and ordinance transfer systems
2x tanker/tug/supply ship - refueling system, tractor beam, one shuttle bay, and a few large maintenance storage units
2x fighter transport - commercial hangars

Two of each so one can stay on station while the other heads home if additional resupply is needed. 


If you have sufficient range and speed on your AMMs/Res1 sensors you can have time to launch multiple AMM volleys against each incoming salvo, which will let keep both leaks and wasted missiles to a minimum. 

For salvo estimation - well, see how many missiles your AMM ships can handle and that's probably about how many the NPR can, assuming they are the same size as yours.  From a practical point of view if you have the range advantage you could launch once then keep the range open and watch to see how successful it was, then tune subsequent volleys accordingly. 

Note:  I haven't fought a missile engagement yet in C#, so you'd likely be better off listening to advice from others on the thread who have experience in those things. 

[Kelewan]

I don't really want to use mechanics that use a "dishonest" way of dealing with AI based on knowledge of its algorithms ...

And yet, here I do not understand everything.
1) How to understand which of the enemy ships are anti-missile? By mass? Or by first firing at them?
How do I understand how much the enemy has in general to destroy missiles?

by them firing at your missiles (so yes, you have the fire at them first). If you detect the ship/salvo with your active sensors the event log will tell you which ship fired which weapons.
even if you only detect the AMM after they where fired you will see the missiles grouped by salvos (e.g. if you see 5 events "Size 1 Missile x11",  and 3 events "Size 1 Missile x5",
I would look if there is a class with 5 ships and a class with 3 ships at the origin point. There are cases where the enemy will not fire full salvos, but you can deduce some hints
in most cases.

2) What is the best way to estimate in advance how many missiles I will need in a salvo? I looked at the ship designs on the wiki, and I can conclude that on average 6000t anti-missile ships are capable of shooting down about 10 missiles / salvo (in their worst case).
Is it possible to somehow determine in advance how many% of the enemy ships are anti-missile?
Roughly speaking, I know that the enemy's fleet is 200 thousand tons. Based on this, can I roughly understand what size of a salvo will be sufficient?

You can't rely estimate the capabilities of your enemy without fighting:

• You need the know the speed of the enemy AMM,  the enemy AMM salvos size, the number of enemy AMM ships and how many often the enemy fleet can fire AMM at your salvos, to estimate how many of your missiles will survive the enemy AMMs
• You need to know the number of enemy beam PD-Ships, the number of PD shots per ship, and the to-hit-chance for each weapon, to estimate how many of you missiles will survive the beam PD
• You need to know the to-hit-chance of your missiles, the number of armor of the enemy ships

Some information can be deduced by observing the enemy (speed of enemy ships, indicate engine tech => missile speed)

3) Why are 2000-2500t missile corvettes a good choice?
As I understand it, the larger the ship, the more profitable it is to place many things on it. For example, armor, shields.
The only possible plus of small missile corvettes is that if the enemy has few missile salvos, and they are large, then many enemy missiles will be wasted.

But, if instead of 100 corvettes there are 4 missile cruisers of 50,000 in size, and 10 missile defense ships - 5,000 tons each - then there may not be any losses at all, due to powerful missile defense and armor.

The idea of ​​a rocket that instantly splits into two is very interesting! How to set them up correctly? Is the separation radius greater than the fire distance?

Bigger ships are more efficient in many cases, but the idea is to fire the missiles without being detected.
A 2500t ship is much harder to detect as a bigger ships, especially if the enemy has no sensors searching for small ships
   

[Andrew]

Firing 100 substantial missile volleys in a war will be decisive. It will destroy the economy of the side launching them.

[Jorgen_CAB]

I don't really want to use mechanics that use a "dishonest" way of dealing with AI based on knowledge of its algorithms ...

And yet, here I do not understand everything.
1) How to understand which of the enemy ships are anti-missile? By mass? Or by first firing at them?
How do I understand how much the enemy has in general to destroy missiles?
2) What is the best way to estimate in advance how many missiles I will need in a salvo? I looked at the ship designs on the wiki, and I can conclude that on average 6000t anti-missile ships are capable of shooting down about 10 missiles / salvo (in their worst case).
Is it possible to somehow determine in advance how many% of the enemy ships are anti-missile?
Roughly speaking, I know that the enemy's fleet is 200 thousand tons. Based on this, can I roughly understand what size of a salvo will be sufficient?
3) Why are 2000-2500t missile corvettes a good choice?
As I understand it, the larger the ship, the more profitable it is to place many things on it. For example, armor, shields.
The only possible plus of small missile corvettes is that if the enemy has few missile salvos, and they are large, then many enemy missiles will be wasted.

But, if instead of 100 corvettes there are 4 missile cruisers of 50,000 in size, and 10 missile defense ships - 5,000 tons each - then there may not be any losses at all, due to powerful missile defense and armor.

The idea of ​​a rocket that instantly splits into two is very interesting! How to set them up correctly? Is the separation radius greater than the fire distance?

1. You have to test you opponents capabilities to know what will be the most efficient way to engage them. If you engage without knowing their capabilities it can go pretty bad for you. You will get confirmation on the type of weapons system the opponent use as they use them, that will tell you what to target and how to do it in the future.

2 & 3. This comes down to your ability to engage without being engaged at the same time and why I suggested about 2000t as a good size. This is a size that can quite easily fly under the radar of NPR sensors. This means you can engage them without them having a chance to retaliate, this give you options. And yes bigger ships is better in general but not for all purposes, it is not all about efficiency.
It will be really hard to hide a 50kt missile cruiser that can't dodge enemy sensors and provide a much bigger thermal imprint. A carrier can be much further from the action, that is the whole idea with that doctrine.

[Entaro (OP)]

by them firing at your missiles (so yes, you have the fire at them first). If you detect the ship/salvo with your active sensors the event log will tell you which ship fired which weapons.
even if you only detect the AMM after they where fired you will see the missiles grouped by salvos (e.g. if you see 5 events "Size 1 Missile x11",  and 3 events "Size 1 Missile x5",
I would look if there is a class with 5 ships and a class with 3 ships at the origin point. There are cases where the enemy will not fire full salvos, but you can deduce some hints
in most cases.

1. Hmm. In this case, I will need sensors that can detect missiles at a short distance. Either the missiles will need to be equipped with sensors capable of detecting anti-missile defenses, or somehow a small sensor ship capable of detecting missiles will need to be placed near the enemy.

You can't rely estimate the capabilities of your enemy without fighting:

• You need the know the speed of the enemy AMM,  the enemy AMM salvos size, the number of enemy AMM ships and how many often the enemy fleet can fire AMM at your salvos, to estimate how many of your missiles will survive the enemy AMMs
• You need to know the number of enemy beam PD-Ships, the number of PD shots per ship, and the to-hit-chance for each weapon, to estimate how many of you missiles will survive the beam PD
• You need to know the to-hit-chance of your missiles, the number of armor of the enemy ships

Some information can be deduced by observing the enemy (speed of enemy ships, indicate engine tech => missile speed)

2. I believe that having started a war, it will be too late to conduct reconnaissance. Therefore, I do not see any way to figure out this information, other than saving / loading.
After all, if I start a battle (it does not matter, the whole fleet, or a small "reconnaissance" part of it) - war will be declared, NPR knows where my home system is ... If it turns out that my forces are not enough - the enemy will destroy me.

Bigger ships are more efficient in many cases, but the idea is to fire the missiles without being detected.
A 2500t ship is much harder to detect as a bigger ships, especially if the enemy has no sensors searching for small ships

3. The idea is really interesting. This, in fact, provides the same benefits as long range fire, at which the enemy will not reach me.
The only question is, at what distance can the enemy planet detect ships of 2500 tons?

[Entaro (OP)]

Something the situation is starting to cause concern in me.
1. First, I am not doing well with diplomacy.
I created diplomatic ships, but when I send them to the NPR-owned system, they ask me to leave and the relationship falls. I do not understand what kind of action I have to take in order for the relationship to begin to improve.

2. I see that NPR has a huge fleet on its launch system. This is a total of over 100 ships. Most of them have a tonnage of about 21 thousand tons. I'm not sure if they are all military or civilian, but if at least a third of them are military, I have no idea how to resist such a fleet.
I started out on the default "traditional empire" setting, and it's been 39 years since I started. I am still colonizing - building mines and factories, and trying to increase resource extraction.


And what is better in the future to destroy enemy commercial ships?
I suppose spending conventional missiles on them, the same as on warships, is too expensive.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Something the situation is starting to cause concern in me.
1. First, I am not doing well with diplomacy.
I created diplomatic ships, but when I send them to the NPR-owned system, they ask me to leave and the relationship falls. I do not understand what kind of action I have to take in order for the relationship to begin to improve.

2. I see that NPR has a huge fleet on its launch system. This is a total of over 100 ships. Most of them have a tonnage of about 21 thousand tons. I'm not sure if they are all military or civilian, but if at least a third of them are military, I have no idea how to resist such a fleet.
I started out on the default "traditional empire" setting, and it's been 39 years since I started. I am still colonizing - building mines and factories, and trying to increase resource extraction.


And what is better in the future to destroy enemy commercial ships?
I suppose spending conventional missiles on them, the same as on warships, is too expensive.

Make sure your Diplomacy ship have commercial engines and is about 10kt or less, that would mean it have no impact on negative diplomacy.

Well, you should be able to simply avoid them by making sure you don't encroach on their territory until you have a large and powerful fleet. That NPR also quite often divide their fleet into smaller parts so you can defeat it in detail. The issue with NPR is that it is not very good at scouting versus a human, so you should be able to deal with it eventually. But it might take some time and patience.

[Entaro (OP)]

Make sure your Diplomacy ship have commercial engines and is about 10kt or less, that would mean it have no impact on negative diplomacy.

Well, you should be able to simply avoid them by making sure you don't encroach on their territory until you have a large and powerful fleet. That NPR also quite often divide their fleet into smaller parts so you can defeat it in detail. The issue with NPR is that it is not very good at scouting versus a human, so you should be able to deal with it eventually. But it might take some time and patience.

My diplomatic ship has commercial engines, 1 diplomacy module, 1 sensor size 1 each ... I can't imagine how you can make it even smaller.
Although ... you can put a smaller engine with less fuel efficiency ...
But I have already decided that it would be better to fight. But later.
At the expense of the division of the NPR fleet - according to my observations, almost all of their fleet is concentrated around their planet. I can't imagine how I could split it.

[nuclearslurpee]

Make sure your Diplomacy ship have commercial engines and is about 10kt or less, that would mean it have no impact on negative diplomacy.

Well, you should be able to simply avoid them by making sure you don't encroach on their territory until you have a large and powerful fleet. That NPR also quite often divide their fleet into smaller parts so you can defeat it in detail. The issue with NPR is that it is not very good at scouting versus a human, so you should be able to deal with it eventually. But it might take some time and patience.

My diplomatic ship has commercial engines, 1 diplomacy module, 1 sensor size 1 each ... I can't imagine how you can make it even smaller.

FYI there is a UI bug where even if a diplomatic ship is acceptable and causing a net positive gain of relations, the event message may indicate that it is having a negative effect. As long as your ship is under 10k tons (technically 11k tons, actually) it should be fine. If the NPR is actually upset then you should see an escalation of severity in the event messages over time which is your clue to bug out.

[Entaro (OP)]

I think I can already start building my fleet.
Question: do I understand correctly that I do not need to have a weapon guidance system on a ship with a weapon?
Can I use some ships as fire control systems and others as weapon platforms?

I am planning something like this:
Battle fleet (can be scaled!):
10 heavy missile cruisers - 30 thousand each. t. with rocket launchers of size 7 and armor 4, a stock of missiles for 20-30 volleys.
6 missile defense destroyers - 8-10 thousand tons each - with rocket launchers of size 1, armor 3 - a stock of missiles for 100 volleys (I will use them for reconnaissance by shelling.
3 missile defense destroyers with Gaussian turrets + active sensors of maximum size.
1 destroyer with passive sensors of maximum size (resolutions 1 and 100)

Reconnaissance fleet (combat support):
1 aircraft carrier destroyer - for small reconnaissance ships of 500 and 250t (4 reconnaissance ships of 500t and 4,250t - half have active sensors, half have thermal ones).
4 scouts 2500t each with active sensors. 2 - with heat.

Supply fleet:
A huge station equipped with a refueling hub, a stock of missiles, a repair hub - 400-500 tons. You can add CIWS and armor to it.
5 tug tankers, 60 thousand tons each, with 2 million tons of fuel in each (I already have them).

Invasion Fleet: Transport ships capable of carrying a 1M army.

I thought I could expand the shipyard to 50 tons. so, and make missile cruisers bigger, but I suppose it's better to start building them earlier ...

Also not sure what to do with the enemy's commercial shipping.
If I take over enemy planets, their ships won't be mine, will they?
Should you create a small corvette fleet to deal with enemy commercial ships?