Author Topic: Light Vehicles - When and why?  (Read 8390 times)

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Offline Borealis4x

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Re: Light Vehicles - When and why?
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2020, 12:26:58 PM »
Can we? Yes.

Should we, and if so how much? This has been discussed for half of the thread now...

I just haven't seen any good arguments not to. The best argument is that it would make mixed formations weak. But I'd argue that mixed formations are justifiably sub-optimal in most cases and the game should encourage you to separate tanks from infantry just like we do IRL.

I admit I don't get what you mean by "weighting needs to be "continuum" in nature as a simple Infantry/Armor dichotomy does not exist in C# Aurora" since units are separated by whether they are infantry or light/medium/heavy vehicles already, making it easy for Steve to bias AT weapons to shoot non-infantry. I think there is more to this statement tho, could you clarify?

 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Light Vehicles - When and why?
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2020, 04:09:41 PM »
I just haven't seen any good arguments not to. The best argument is that it would make mixed formations weak. But I'd argue that mixed formations are justifiably sub-optimal in most cases and the game should encourage you to separate tanks from infantry just like we do IRL.

Except that IRL, we don't, at least not universally? Example off the top of my head: until 2016 the US Army's Armored Brigade Combat Teams were built around Combined Arms Battalions which each contain 2x Mechanized Infantry Companies and 2x Tank Companies, and since 2016 I believe they've switched over to 2x Armored Battalions and 1x Mechanized Infantry Battalions but both of these use a mix of armor and infantry companies. The Stryker and Infantry BCTs don't use tanks largely for logistical, not tactical, reasons, and even then the Stryker BCTs still use light armored vehicles as part of the core of the formation.

More generally, combined arms has been known as the optimal force composition for large-scale battles since the early stages of WW2, although different powers figured this out at different points in the war. Certainly at the division level as a rule, and in many cases smaller combined-arms formations were used often on an ad-hoc basis (e.g. kampfgruppen).

That said, in Aurora it doesn't matter very much if you use combined arms battalions or single-type battalions organized into larger combined arms formations (divisions etc.), aside from some relatively technical points regarding breakthroughs and other such mechanics. Regardless of how you compose your formations at the lowest level, the targeting is essentially twice-random (random targeting of a formation, then random targeting of elements in that formation, both weighted by relative size/tonnage). This works very nicely from an RP perspective because in principle you can design combined arms or monolithic formations and either will work. If we make the element-level targeting deterministic, there's a clear metagame shift where monolithic formations become clearly optimal, assuming the formation-level targeting remains random (and if it didn't, we'd be opening a whole other can of worms...).

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I admit I don't get what you mean by "weighting needs to be "continuum" in nature as a simple Infantry/Armor dichotomy does not exist in C# Aurora" since units are separated by whether they are infantry or light/medium/heavy vehicles already, making it easy for Steve to bias AT weapons to shoot non-infantry. I think there is more to this statement tho, could you clarify?

Basically, there are ranges of both element armor values and weapon AP values which have to be considered. It's easy to say "bias CAP to shoot INF, and bias MAV to shoot VEH". On one hand, what if the enemy force has LVH? Do we bias the MAV to shoot at VEH in particular, to get the best tonnage-destroyed ratio? Or just shoot at anything that isn't INF? What if the enemy force has a mix of normal and power armor INF, do we bias the CAP to shoot the weaker INF?

On the other hand, what about other weapon types? Autocannons and bombardment weapons are effective against light armor but not heavy armor, how do we want to bias these? More generally, how should we account for non-equal tech levels, which we would discover through battlefield intelligence? Do we adjust the bias of our MAV if it turns out the enemy VEH armor is greater than our attack stats, to focus on LVH instead? What about infantry LAV shooting at heavy tanks instead of static CAP nests, do we shift the bias there? Many more cases exist which could be considered.

You end up at a point where we either need to write a complex set of bias rules for every weapon (which are likely to be controversial, to boot), or else bias the targeting to be basically perfect by having every weapon target the element it can score the highest tonnage-weighted kill rate on. That's not to say that the latter is automatically a Bad Thing™, but it would substantially rewrite the balance of Ground Forces (meaning a lot of balancing work for Steve) and in my opinion at least would eliminate a lot of the flexibility we have right now in designing reasonably effective formations.

Ultimately, the idea of "anti-infantry weapons shoot infantry, anti-tank weapons shoot tanks" only works if you have two kinds of weapons and two kinds of units. Aurora does not have this, we have six basic unit types (most of which can vary in armor level as well) and the same number of basic combat weapon types with varying sizes. That's what I mean by "continuum" weighting, we have to come up with a system that works for all weapon and unit base types without leaving easy exploits or suboptimal behavior. The nice thing about random targeting is that you won't not target the thing you want to shoot at, you just can't target it reliably. That's not exactly unrealistic, particularly given the rather abstract, high-level nature of ground combat in Aurora which precludes a lot of the tactical detail that actually decides what your guns can shoot at in a real battle.
 
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Offline Borealis4x

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Re: Light Vehicles - When and why?
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2020, 05:37:05 PM »
I just haven't seen any good arguments not to. The best argument is that it would make mixed formations weak. But I'd argue that mixed formations are justifiably sub-optimal in most cases and the game should encourage you to separate tanks from infantry just like we do IRL.



Larger units are more mixed, true, but battalions and companies tend to be composed of more or less the same type of unit. An infantry company would be composed of infantry and some heavy weapons teams. A tanks company would be composed solely of tanks. An artillery company of artillery. These would be combined together to make larger units, which is something I think the game should encourage.

As for targeting biases I understand that anti-vehicle would be wasted attacking light vehicles and high-tech anti-personal could do work against lower-tech vehicles of all types, but I still think a little nudge to give weapons a little greater chance to shoot at what they were designed for would still be a good thing. Imperfect, sure, but it would still lead to better outcomes than currently.
 

Offline Migi

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Re: Light Vehicles - When and why?
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2020, 06:14:17 PM »
You say you want "a little nudge" but that doesn't tell anyone how you think it should be achieved mechanically.

The mechanics matter, you can't evaluate a proposal based solely on the generality.

The previous posts argue that any specific proposal will be complex and lead to more balance issues than are currently present.
If you can provide a suggestion which doesn't do so then by all means please do.
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Light Vehicles - When and why?
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2020, 06:38:05 PM »
Larger units are more mixed, true, but battalions and companies tend to be composed of more or less the same type of unit. An infantry company would be composed of infantry and some heavy weapons teams. A tanks company would be composed solely of tanks. An artillery company of artillery. These would be combined together to make larger units, which is something I think the game should encourage.

What I was trying to point out was that even at the battalion level (typically the formation size most Aurora players will use at least in the early game, 5,000 to 10,000 tons usually) we do see these combined arms force structures. It doesn't make good sense to me to effectively close off that avenue of RPing for players who want to make combined arms formations - and I say this as someone who usually makes distinct infantry and armored formations, myself.

Additionally, many players will use larger formations especially later in the game, regiment or even brigade sized units where combined arms force structures are even more likely. Again, why force these players into a specific design pattern if they want to RP something else?

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As for targeting biases I understand that anti-vehicle would be wasted attacking light vehicles and high-tech anti-personal could do work against lower-tech vehicles of all types, but I still think a little nudge to give weapons a little greater chance to shoot at what they were designed for would still be a good thing. Imperfect, sure, but it would still lead to better outcomes than currently.

You say you want "a little nudge" but that doesn't tell anyone how you think it should be achieved mechanically.

The mechanics matter, you can't evaluate a proposal based solely on the generality.

The previous posts argue that any specific proposal will be complex and lead to more balance issues than are currently present.
If you can provide a suggestion which doesn't do so then by all means please do.

I've previously suggested the idea of a "Recon" commander skill which gives SKILL% chance of targeting an "optimal" target instead of a purely random target, which could simply be the target which the weapon has the highest estimated tonnage kill rate against (probably assuming equal tech). This would limit the impact of such a mechanic but give commanders a bit more importance and interest in terms of which commanders you want in charge of different formations. Combined arms formations would be a bit vulnerable to these commanders but not egregiously so which preserves the RP aspects.
 
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Offline Droll

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Re: Light Vehicles - When and why?
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2020, 07:15:47 PM »
Larger units are more mixed, true, but battalions and companies tend to be composed of more or less the same type of unit.

This statement is false. I know this because my infantry companies also have a few light vehicles. My mechanized have medium vehicle APCs with infantry with a few medium vehicle IFVs. My armored companies also have token infantry accompanying them. Some of my companies are "heavy mechanized" which have heavy and medium vehicles with infantry. There are also motorized support companies which are 1000 tons and they have some light vehicles and a platoons worth of infantry. You can't predict the level of mixing a player wants to do in a given RP context.

My standard companies are 2000 tons and in the case of armor 4000 tons.
 
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Light Vehicles - When and why?
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2020, 05:01:17 PM »
The general problem is that in reality mixing units and combined armies give units and armies abilities that none of those individual components can give you on their own unless they are combined in specific combinations and doctrines. This is the classic the sum of the parts is far greater than the individual parts... like combining tin and copper into Bronze... sort of.

The game encourage you to make mono unit designs as specialised units is always better.

CAP weapon in infantry will always be better than infantry without CAP from every perspective... even if infantry with personal weapons are better for soaking damage against larger weapon even CAP infantry is more than good enough to do the same and vastly better at killing the enemy infantry.

The faster you kill off enemy infantry the faster you can add in your anti-vehicle units... in my case that would be Medium tanks with two anti-vehicle guns of some sort depending on the armour level of the enemy.

Now... I don't meta game Aurora so I NEVER do any of this in a real game as I don't see the point. But from a game mechanic point of view you only need two unit types CAP infantry and Medium Vehicles with either soem CAP or HCAP weapons and then some formation in a mix of light, medium and heavy dual anti-vehicle cannons.

I never see a scenario where you would withdraw infantry from the front line... infantry are pretty good at killing infantry too, so it just is a war of attrition. But tanks with CAP weapons are also good, especially in offensive line as they can more easily cause break through and do even more damage. If the enemy have mostly tanks then the infantry are great as soaking damage too... unless they are mostly CAP vehicles that is... but even then it probably is not meaningful to withdraw infantry versus just pulling your tanks up to engage their tanks.

In my opinion I think the mechanic could have some improvement if you want to reduce the meta gaming of the system.

Personally I don't care... as "winning" the game is NOT my goal (as it is impossible to do that anyway) then I build ground forces from military structures that make sense from a role-play perspective.

Although... I do thin it would have been more fun if the game mechanics had encouraged mixed unit designs and combined warfare without micro managing unit forces. If Steve find the time worth to look into this some more I would not be against it. In my opinion the system does not scale well from small to large engagements and the random nature of combat is not that great as an overall mechanic in general as it encourage boring meta gaming of the system.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Light Vehicles - When and why?
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2020, 11:29:50 PM »
Borealis, modern militaries do mix units even at a small scale. It's routine to attach a tank platoon to provide fire support for an infantry company and it's also routine to attach an infantry platoon to a tank company to provide close-up support. On paper, the organizations look neat and mono-equipped as you said but in reality, cross-attaching is a daily event. Even the Chinese are changing their OOB to the battlegroup system.

And also, the points I made earlier still stand. Arguing "realism" is a wrong path to take in a game that only simulates the strategic scale and operates in 8-hour blocks.
 
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Light Vehicles - When and why?
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2020, 05:10:36 AM »
And also, the points I made earlier still stand. Arguing "realism" is a wrong path to take in a game that only simulates the strategic scale and operates in 8-hour blocks.

I agree that arguing how units function on a tactical level does not make much sense, units operates in a strategic or at least operational level.

In my opinion the game should scale the combat due to the size of the forces involved. In that i think that the time passes for each combat round should be different depending on the forces involved. If the forces are on a company or battalion level then perhaps hourly combat rounds is ok... division sized then 8 hour is ok but if the combat are tens of millions of tons of combat troops then each combat round should probably be more like a week.

The larger the combat the less intense each combat round should get. That way really massive combat would feel more like large scale wars rather than a skirmish of some minor forces.

In my opinion this would add some interesting option to warfare as huge battles would now take more realistic time to be concluded. You also would not need to have a separate time scale between ship boarding combat and planetary combat either as they would be part of the same dynamic system.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 08:18:13 AM by Jorgen_CAB »