Author Topic: Gauss point defense ships  (Read 5948 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Theokrat

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • Posts: 236
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 11:15:27 AM »
Actually since he posted the design we can make several deductions.  

We know for example that the ship is 216hs has 18 engines, 20 shields, 6 fuel tanks, and 2 quad GC turrets.  All of these have fixed usage of 181.28hs leaving 34.72hs.

We also know that the active sensor has a gps of 56 resolution of 1 and max range for that resolution of 4.5m km and that there is only 1.  Odds are good that the tech levels are 21 active grav sensor and 11 for EM sensor which would give a sz 2 suite.  

Since the crew size is 2174 there is probably 9 full size (1hs) crew quarters.

The maintenance supply points are fairly low so there is most likely only 2 or 3 hs devoted here.

I made an induction that the armor tech would need to be at least ceramic Composite to have enough hs left for 2 size 4 BFC's with 3 layers of armor.  And the only way for that to match the stats posted is for Beam range tech to be 48k for 50% and beam tracking at 5k kps.
*bow* Ok, point taken. Also because size was explicitly posted. And yes, quite definitively these posted gaussguns are superior to railguns at this tech level (unless the encountered missiles were slower than about 15k kps).

I deliberately don't ignore the BFC hit chance since it is a known factor that will not change.  Crew grade and ECM are intangibles and can be left out of the analysis.
Very well, but if we do not leave the range hit chance out of the analysis, then it should actually be considered as a variable. And its easy to see that for the railgun case it might be better to use a (2xrange, 1xtracking speed)-BFC. That only adds 2 HS for the two FCs in the design and increases the hitchance from 90% to 95%. That would cost us about half a railgun, or 2 projectiles, so we are down to 76. Still 76*0.95>78*0.9.

Ok, this is a very minor point, which is why i wanted to ignore it in the first place.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

  • Registered
  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1381
  • Thanked: 3 times
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2012, 12:23:51 PM »
Currently the design has the following;

2x Phalanx Quad Gauss Cannon Turrets (61.82 HS)
2x Teksystems Defender Turret Fire Control (8 HS)

20x Gamma R300/14 Shields (20 HS)
13x Ceramic Composite Armor
1x Damage Control (3 HS)

18x Applied Dynamics E850 Ion Engines (90 HS)

1x Defense Tech Bulwark Mk2 AMM Sensor (2 HS)

3x Crew Quarters (3 HS)
2x Crew Quarters (small) (.4 HS)
6x Fuel Storage (6 HS)
5x Engineering spaces (5 HS)
1x Bridge (1 HS)

There was a change to the design posted above, after I posted I caught that I had too many crew quarters and reduced them. Ship went down 100 tons and crew went from 856 to 847.

Arwyn thank you for posting. 

I see that I'd used build points instead of crew, no wonder it seemed so high!!  I should have also noted that the damage control rating dictated that you had a DC suite in there as well.  That hs usage means I was also wrong about your turret tracking tech, it must be 6250kps and not 5000kps.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Arwyn (OP)

  • Gold Supporter
  • Commander
  • *****
  • A
  • Posts: 338
  • Thanked: 40 times
  • Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 12:40:17 PM »
6250 is correct. :)

Tracking speed is one of the first things I tend to research. I learned that lesson the hard way....  ;D
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

  • Registered
  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1381
  • Thanked: 3 times
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 01:17:18 PM »
I do cheat some.  Over the years I've built an Excel workbook does a number of things for me.  It started like as tool to preselect tech, from the tech system table, and then design various "standard" components.  From that I can then design basic ships to see how those components interact. 

It's not foolproof by anymeans. But it does let me have fairly good starting balances of tech in a new game.  I can also advance the tech and see what the future changes might be.  It also gives me a tool to reverse engineer posted designs to see the nuts and bolts and see what I might do differently. 
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Theokrat

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • Posts: 236
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2012, 04:27:07 AM »
So having been converted to use Gauss Guns as my preferred PD Final defense method (at least when the rof reaches three), I have a question:

Gauss Guns can be reduced in size at the cost of accuracy. The trade-off is linear, so while the ordinary 6 HS gauss gun has a base hit chance of 100% (modified by the tracking speeds etc), a 3 HS gauss gun has a 50% hit chance, and a 1HS gauss gun has a 1/6=17% hit chance. Put differently, for a given weight and in terms of expected hits it does not matter how large the individual gauss guns are- One Size 6 gauss gun scores the same expected hits as six size 1 gauss guns.

A Quad Gauss Turret with ordinary size 6 gauss guns is quite massive, as witnessed by the design above. A single quad turret is around 30 HS or 1,500t. My concern is that this is not very flexible to employ.

So the question is: Is there a drawback in using Size 1 gauss guns as the basis for the turrets?

Following the example from above, the quad turret on this basis would only weigh 5HS or 250t. Then the "Griffin"-design from above could host 12 of these quad turrets for the same costs, and with the same PD-capacity in terms of expected hits.

The benefit of this would be that if I have a design with "extra" space of say 500t (e.g. shipyard size, or jumpsize constraints) I could fit in 2 of the small quad turrets, but not one of the large ones.

The only drawback I can see is in the variance of hits in the PD role (as opposed to the expectation value). The variance would be slightly larger, which means that the chance of an "overkill" of incoming missiles is slightly larger. In turn this implies the actual expectation value of hits against a finite number of incoming missiles is just very slightly lower, but is this really material?

Am I overlooking something?
 

Offline ollobrains

  • Commander
  • *********
  • o
  • Posts: 380
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2012, 04:58:56 AM »
perhaps a space technology that allows an extra tracking unit as u scale down the size maybe
 

Offline Brian Neumann

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1214
  • Thanked: 3 times
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2012, 05:46:37 AM »
One thing you are not allowing for is the effect of crew grade.  While a half size unit has half the base chance to hit, the crew grade bonus is then applied directly to this chance.  So a size 6 gauss cannon has a modified 110% chance to hit, then the two size 3 gauss cannons would each have a 60% to hit chance which combined comes out to 120%, or slightly higher.  If however you had a conscript crew then the effect would be reversed.  For most players if they have a general crew grade then having the half size or 1/4 size gauss cannon works out to their slight advantage.  Their are other factors involved that keep it from being this simple, but the principle is there.

Brian
 

Offline Arwyn (OP)

  • Gold Supporter
  • Commander
  • *****
  • A
  • Posts: 338
  • Thanked: 40 times
  • Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2012, 09:51:43 AM »
Interesting point. I will have to give it a try and see how it performs.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

  • Registered
  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1381
  • Thanked: 3 times
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2012, 10:03:54 AM »
If we're talking about replacing all size 6 GC's with 6 size 1 GC's and all other things are equal then there is near zero net change.  

Quad Turret of sz6 GC's with tracking speed at 4x turret tracking speed tech is 32.64hs.

Quad Turret of sz1 GC's with tracking speed at 4x turret tracking speed tech is 5.44hs.  Replace the above turret with 6 of this turret is a net zero hs change.

Turret installations use fractional hs installations these days not integer.


On the point about crewgrade.  2 chances at 60% do not equate to a total of 120% for a single success.  I don't recall to probability math, but my recollection is that it is less that the single 110%.  Hopefully someone is into calculating things like Craps odds will have the formula.

Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Thiosk

  • Commodore
  • **********
  • Posts: 784
  • Thanked: 1 times
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2012, 10:39:05 AM »
There was a long discussion on this topic of reduced size gauss a few months back.  Very extensive, went on for pages.  Have a search.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

  • Registered
  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1381
  • Thanked: 3 times
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2012, 11:00:29 AM »
There was a long discussion on this topic of reduced size gauss a few months back.  Very extensive, went on for pages.  Have a search.

Yes there was.  It also discussed using different BFC's for the different turret builds. 
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Theokrat

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • Posts: 236
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2012, 04:55:07 AM »
There was a long discussion on this topic of reduced size gauss a few months back.  Very extensive, went on for pages.  Have a search.
Cant seem to find it, any pointers would be welcomed.
 

Offline Theokrat

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • Posts: 236
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2012, 05:46:13 AM »
One thing you are not allowing for is the effect of crew grade.  While a half size unit has half the base chance to hit, the crew grade bonus is then applied directly to this chance.  So a size 6 gauss cannon has a modified 110% chance to hit, then the two size 3 gauss cannons would each have a 60% to hit chance which combined comes out to 120%, or slightly higher.  If however you had a conscript crew then the effect would be reversed.  For most players if they have a general crew grade then having the half size or 1/4 size gauss cannon works out to their slight advantage.  Their are other factors involved that keep it from being this simple, but the principle is there.

Brian
Are you sure this is how it works? The original text by Steve indicated that the crew grade bonus was applied multiplicative, not additive. So if the bonus was 10%, then this would increase the hitchance from 100% to 110% for 6HS GG, or from 50% to 55% for 3HS GG.

I take this from the example in this post: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,227.0.html, but I do not know whether Steve actually implemented it as indicated there, or if maybe it changed?

However if this is the case, than its heavily in favor of small Gaussguns. Instead of a single 6HS gaussgun with a 110% hitchance (1.1 expected hit) you could have twelve 0.5HS with a hitchance of 18% each (2.2 expected hits- twice as much)
 

Offline Thiosk

  • Commodore
  • **********
  • Posts: 784
  • Thanked: 1 times
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2012, 12:09:03 AM »
One thing that I never understood during these discussions was the note on hitchance.  This has come up a few times, as I've noted previously.  What speed is the hitchance calculated for?  10,000?  Most missiles are doing substantially higher than that, so I can't help but wonder-- what happens to that 18% chance for hitting a missile moving at 10,000 when its actually flying at 75,000?  Would it be better then to frontload the hitchance with full size turrets?  Or would everything be perfectly linear and the crew grade provide the necessary bonuses?

Also, I cringe at the thought of twelve times the quad turrets spamming up my missile screens :D
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 12:12:28 AM by Thiosk »
 

Offline Theokrat

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • Posts: 236
Re: Gauss point defense ships
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2012, 03:00:20 AM »
One thing that I never understood during these discussions was the note on hitchance.  This has come up a few times, as I've noted previously.  What speed is the hitchance calculated for?  10,000?  Most missiles are doing substantially higher than that, so I can't help but wonder-- what happens to that 18% chance for hitting a missile moving at 10,000 when its actually flying at 75,000?  Would it be better then to frontload the hitchance with full size turrets?  Or would everything be perfectly linear and the crew grade provide the necessary bonuses?

Also, I cringe at the thought of twelve times the quad turrets spamming up my missile screens :D

You are right in saying that this is actually not a “hitchance” as in chance to hit something. It is rather a “probability factor”, that is one in many factors that will influence our ability to hit. However the particular form of the function that calculates this ability allows us to disregard all other factors in the analysis (mostly). I.e. by large the speed of the target does not matter in deciding what size of gaussguns is best suited for beam defence – although it would influence the decision whether other forms of protection (AMM, shields, armor), might be superiour (after we have identified what hullsize of gaussguns maximizes their potential).
The particular function – to my best understanding- reads:
P(x,tr,v,grade,size) = p_dist * p_vel * p_crew * p_size
Where p_dist is the probability factor due to the distance, calculated as p_dist (x) = 1 – x / R. Where x being the distance at which the target is engaged, R being the maximum range of the firecontroll (not the 50% range!).

p_vel is the probability factor due to the speed of the enemy, calculated at p_vel (tr) = tr / v_target, unless the tracking speed is larger than the target speed. Where tr is the minimum of the tracking speed of the weapon and the associated firecontroll, and v_target is the speed of the target.

P_crew is the bonus (or malus) from the training level of the crew. Note that the earlier point in this thread would indicate that it is added to the product of the other two factors, rather than multiplied by it.

p_size is the probability due the size, which only applies to Gaussguns and is p_size= HS/6, i.e. the Hullsize divided by 6.

The important bit is that these are all multiplicative, which means that if you decrease one factor by 1/3, then the whole term becomes 1/3 smaller. And because every variable (speed, distance, size and crewgrade) enters only one term, you can easily reduce the much more complicated problem of considering the whole term to the simpler problem of considering only the relevant term for a variable. This way you don’t have to make a bunch of assumptions regarding the other factors, which are not relevant anyway.
An example: When comparing the different Gaussgun sizes you can easily see that Probability for size 6 is P(x,tr,v,grade,6)= p_dist * p_vel * p_crew * 1. Whereas for a size 3 Gaussgun you would have P(x,tr,v,grade,1)= p_dist * p_vel * p_crew * 1/2. So you can see that the second term is always half as large as the first – completely irrespective of the other factors. It does not tell you what chance you would actually have to hit a missile of course. If all other factors amount to 50%, then the first term would yield 50%, while the second would be 25%. If the other factors are a cumulative of 2%, then the first factor would be 2%, the second 1%. Either way, the normal size gaussgun is twice as likely to hit and thus roughly twice as valuable (but also twice as costly).

The last two paragraphs are not entirely true. P is a probability and thus naturally capped at 100%. p_dist and p_vel are always smaller than 1, so there is no problem, but p_crew can be large than one. Suppose a distance of 10k km for a firecontroll with a maximum of 120k km, then p_dist = 0.92. Further assume a tracking speed of 20k km/s, matching a target speed of 20k km/s, thus p_vel = 1. If the crew bonus is 10%, then the first three probability factors amount to 101%. The 3HS gaussgun would thus have a probability to hit of 50.5%, while the full size gaussgun would have a hitchance of 100% (since its capped there). So theoretically the smaller gaussgun would be superior on a per-weight basis. Note that this only applies under fairly generous assumptions (extremely high range of fc, low target speed, relatively high crew grade…), which is why I disregarded it initially.

The other point is that the hitchance is a good first indication but does not tell you everything. (Assuming gaussgun rate of fire of 1 for simplicity of the example) If you are fighting a single incoming missile, one 6HS gaussgun would be certain too shoot it down in the above example. Two 3HS gaussguns would each score a hit with 50.5% probability, which also means there is a chance that both miss of 0.495*0.495=24.5%, so the chance of hitting the single missile is actually only 75.5%, i.e. much worse than the full size turret. One the other hand if you were fighting two incoming missiles, the singe large gaussgun would be certain to hit one missile, but would also be certain to miss the other one. The two gaussguns would actually have a circa 25% chance of killing both missiles. In the long run you would probably be hit by the same amount of missiles, but with more smaller gaussguns the result of each salvo would vary more wieldy (25% of the time two missiles get through, 50% of the time one comes through, 25% of the time, none hits – while with the full size 100% of the time one comes through.