Author Topic: Using "real" ships to practice ship design: Amun-Ra stealth frigate, the Expanse  (Read 3677 times)

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Offline Iestwyn (OP)

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I don't actually know how to edit that. Where is that done?

When you are actually designing a unit with a headquarter component above the text description of the unit there is a part of the UI that is empty except one numerical value which is aptly labelled "headquarter capacity". The number there can be edited and changed to be however low, or however high you need it be.

Perfect; thanks!

The boarding pods have no MSP and no engineering. Now, they only have a 1.4% chance of a failure during any 5 day increment and only have enough fuel for 29 hours of deployment, so they shouldn't ever NEED to do a repair. But if the construction cycle happens while they are deployed, you could get unlucky. Personally, I'd stick a fighter maintenance storage bay in there just in case.

Also, why do you have so many engines on your ships? Sure, redundancy is nice...but fighter size vessels are dead if they get shot by anything. A bigger engine will dramatically increase fuel efficiency. And 15! engines on the frigate is bonkers. I'd probably go with like 4.

Adding at least a little maintenance to the pods makes sense; I'll do that.

And it's confession time: when it came to the frigate's engines, I just designed one at an arbitrary size and spammed it until I got a speed I liked. XD What would be really smart is if I started with a goal tonnage and speed, used them to find a proper EP, and designed engines based on that. Unfortunately, I don't have much of an idea about what sizes and speeds are best, so I just crammed stuff in until I got round numbers.
 

Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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I'd recommend Iceranger's ship optimizer! It'll find the best engine boost and size for a given tech to hit a ship size, speed, and range with the smallest fuel+engine size.

Warning is that this will result in fuel hungry boosted engines. But it'll also include "suboptimal" results that you can pull from, which may be less fuel hungry.
 
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Offline Iestwyn (OP)

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Oh, right! I've heard good things about that, but I haven't tried it yet. Guess that's what I'm doing tonight!
 

Offline Iestwyn (OP)

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Alright, excellent recommendation! Didn't take me long to get a much sleeker Amun-Ra:

Code: [Select]
Amun-Ra class Stealth Frigate      20,000 tons       437 Crew       2,480.6 BP       TCS 400    TH 600    EM 0
3000 km/s      Armour 3-65       Shields 0-0       HTK 112      Sensors 16/16/0/0      DCR 15      PPV 47
Maint Life 2.00 Years     MSP 1,162    AFR 213%    IFR 3.0%    1YR 387    5YR 5,806    Max Repair 450.000 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 5,000 tons     Magazine 80   
Capitán de Fragata    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 18 months    Flight Crew Berths 100    Morale Check Required   

SILVERSMITH Stealth Epstein Drive EP600.00 (2)    Power 1200.0    Fuel Use 49.92%    Signature 300.000    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 1,720,000 Litres    Range 31 billion km (119 days at full power)

Khopesh Internal Railgun V20/C3 (1x4)    Range 40,000km     TS: 3,000 km/s     Power 6-3     RM 20,000 km    ROF 10       
Bush PDC Emplacement R200-100 (4x2)    Range 20,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 20,000 km    ROF 5       
Bush PDC Coordinator R48-TS10500 (1)     Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 10,500 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0
Khopesh Fire Control R48-TS6000 (1)     Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 6,000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0
Epstein Funneling R3 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Exp 5%

Torpedo Tubes S6 (2)     Missile Size: 6    Rate of Fire 25
Torpedo FC102-R100 (1)     Range 102.6m km    Resolution 100
Capital-Buster Torpedo (12)    Speed: 8,567 km/s    End: 170.8m     Range: 87.8m km    WH: 9    Size: 6    TH: 48/29/14

LADAR (Ship) AS29-R100 (1)     GPS 1600     Range 29.6m km    Resolution 100
LADAR (Missiles) AS6-R1 (1)     GPS 16     Range 6.4m km    MCR 574.5k km    Resolution 1
Shipboard EM Sensor EM2-16 (1)     Sensitivity 16     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  31.6m km
Shipboard Thermal Sensor TH2-16 (1)     Sensitivity 16     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  31.6m km

Strike Group
1x Khonsu Long-range Shuttlecraft   Speed: 800 km/s    Size: 9.99
9x WINDLASS Breaching Pod   Speed: 4807 km/s    Size: 9.98

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

So far as I know, that should be everything. ... Right? Let me know if there's anything else that's wrong; I think I'm starting on the UNSC Infinity next. ;)
 

Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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Still a couple of issues:

1. Max repair is 450MSP but you only have 1162 MSP. If you lose an engine twice (not unlikely with an AFR or 213%) or lose it ONCE to battle damage, it will consume 900 of your MSP. Especially if you are deploying for 18 months...I'd be worried. Swap a few engineering spaces (it looks like you have 15?) for storage bays.

This is another downside to large boosted engines. They are EXPENSIVE. Not necessarily if divided by total thrust and accounting for fuel storage costs, but each individual engine is expensive and that has repair consequences.

2. The Khopesh fire control has a TS of 6000 km/s but your ship only goes 3000 km/s.

3. Fire controls with excess range improve accuracy. Sure, the railgun can only shoot things 40000 km out...but if you went for double or triple range on the fire control, it would be more accurate at the ranges it CAN shoot at. With only 1 gun per fire control, though, the tonnage might not be worth it.

4. I'm sure you know this, but 2 missile launchers is pretty useless in Aurora. You would need a much denser salvo. But this is just trying to match lore so it's fine.

5. Your active sensors are much shorter ranged than either your missile fire controls or your torpedos.
 
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Offline Iestwyn (OP)

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Still a couple of issues:

1. Max repair is 450MSP but you only have 1162 MSP. If you lose an engine twice (not unlikely with an AFR or 213%) or lose it ONCE to battle damage, it will consume 900 of your MSP. Especially if you are deploying for 18 months...I'd be worried. Swap a few engineering spaces (it looks like you have 15?) for storage bays.

This is another downside to large boosted engines. They are EXPENSIVE. Not necessarily if divided by total thrust and accounting for fuel storage costs, but each individual engine is expensive and that has repair consequences.

2. The Khopesh fire control has a TS of 6000 km/s but your ship only goes 3000 km/s.

3. Fire controls with excess range improve accuracy. Sure, the railgun can only shoot things 40000 km out...but if you went for double or triple range on the fire control, it would be more accurate at the ranges it CAN shoot at. With only 1 gun per fire control, though, the tonnage might not be worth it.

4. I'm sure you know this, but 2 missile launchers is pretty useless in Aurora. You would need a much denser salvo. But this is just trying to match lore so it's fine.

5. Your active sensors are much shorter ranged than either your missile fire controls or your torpedos.

I'm learning a lot of stuff. Here are some lessons I didn't know:

Do you mean that repairs from battle damage require double resources? I wasn't aware of that... That changes some things.

I'd forgotten that weapon speeds are limited by craft speed. So that's something to keep in mind.

I think I was aware intuitively that larger salvos were better to overwhelm point defense, but I hadn't really thought about it. How many missiles per salvo and salvos per craft would you recommend?

Again, thanks for all the help!
 

Offline Droll

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I'd forgotten that weapon speeds are limited by craft speed. So that's something to keep in mind.

I think I was aware intuitively that larger salvos were better to overwhelm point defense, but I hadn't really thought about it. How many missiles per salvo and salvos per craft would you recommend?

Hull mounted weapon tracking speed is the better of your racial tracking level and ship speed.
So if your tracking tech is 25000 km/s and your ship is 7000 km/s, the weapon tracks at 25000.
If your tracking tech is 6250 km/s and your ship is 7000 km/s, the weapon tracks at 7000.

As for PD you have to assume that there will be PD weapons present somewhere in an enemy fleet so forget considering the "if" of the enemy having PD and instead consider "how much" PD they will field.
The problem with telling you how many is good is that it is completely dependent on who you find yourself against. I usually like to have 10 missiles on smaller capitals and 20 missiles on larger capitals but I have gone up to 45 launchers with the help of size reduction on missile cruisers. My 200t bombers for example have 3 box launchers and operate in wings of 20.
 
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Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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I usually try for 10 salvos, and usually manage around 1 launcher per 1000 tons of (dedicated) missile ship. But more of both is always better. And of course, you also want your missiles to be as fast as possible. The way I think of missile point defense is in terms of "speed capacity."

# of shots * tracking speed * accuracy/incoming missile speed is the expected # of kills you get, so a point defense setup (which has fixed # of shots, accuracy, and tracking speed) can be evaluated in terms of its speed capacity.

ex. the Amun-Ra has 8 shots at 10,000km/s, so its PD suite has an 80,000km/s capacity. On average, it'll stop 4x20,000km/s missiles...or 1x80,000 km/s missile. Point-blank range for regular weapons is technically not 100% accuracy, but crew grade and officer bonuses can usually make up the difference, so I tend not to account for that.

How is this relevant to your question about # of launchers? Well, you can do the analysis in reverse to figure out how hard a salvo will be to stop. Figure out what you need to penetrate, then work backwards. Usually you don't have the luxury of knowing opponent PD capacity BEFORE designing your ships, but you can use this to get a sense of how well various missile suites compare with each other.

Also, reduced reload rate (and Box launchers) can really help out here. My current game has 15,000 ton missile cruisers using reduced reload rate size 6 launchers to get 12 missiles per salvo despite heavy armor, PD, and an oversized propulsion suite. But I noticed that, if I were to build a 20,000 ton carrier and load it with box launcher fighters, I can achieve a 55 missile salvo. All told, the carrier + fighters would cost about twice as much as the cruiser, and would have lower strategic mobility because the carrier is slower than the cruiser...but its damage output would be very competitive.
 
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Offline Iestwyn (OP)

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That's really interesting... I'd discounted box launchers outside of fighters, since I'd assumed the reload time would be useful for firing another salvo before enemy PD has recharged.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 02:18:55 PM by Iestwyn »
 

Offline Droll

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That's really interesting... I'd discounted box launchers outside of fighters, since I'd assumed the reload tone would be useful for firing another salvo before enemy PD has recharged.

PD recharge doesn't actually exist outside of potentially AMMs. Almost every point defense system that you encounter will be capable of firing every 5s, which is the smallest increment. So even if you are firing a full 6 missile salvo every 5s, you are not overwhelming anything. On the other hand 12 missiles launched every 20s might be able to get a couple missiles through every time they launch.
 
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Offline Iestwyn (OP)

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That's really interesting... I'd discounted box launchers outside of fighters, since I'd assumed the reload tone would be useful for firing another salvo before enemy PD has recharged.

PD recharge doesn't actually exist outside of potentially AMMs. Almost every point defense system that you encounter will be capable of firing every 5s, which is the smallest increment. So even if you are firing a full 6 missile salvo every 5s, you are not overwhelming anything. On the other hand 12 missiles launched every 20s might be able to get a couple missiles through every time they launch.

Makes total sense. Thanks for all this, you guys!
 

Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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That's really interesting... I'd discounted box launchers outside of fighters, since I'd assumed the reload tone would be useful for firing another salvo before enemy PD has recharged.

PD recharge doesn't actually exist outside of potentially AMMs. Almost every point defense system that you encounter will be capable of firing every 5s, which is the smallest increment. So even if you are firing a full 6 missile salvo every 5s, you are not overwhelming anything. On the other hand 12 missiles launched every 20s might be able to get a couple missiles through every time they launch.

Makes total sense. Thanks for all this, you guys!

There is an asterisk here regarding AMMs. Even if you cannot get a salvo in before the AMMs have reloaded (since they typically have a 5 or at most 10 second ROF), if you can sequence your salvos tightly enough that more than 1 salvo is within the enemy AMM envelope at a time, you effectively reduce the # of shots they get at each missile. Like, if they can shoot 5 salvos in the time it takes your missiles to cross the AMM range, but you can get a missile salvo off in the time it takes you to cross the distance halfway, they will have to either switch away from the first salvo or only shoot at the second salvo once it is halfway through the envelope.
 
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Offline Iestwyn (OP)

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That's an interesting strategy. Might require more micromanagement than I have at the moment, but I'll keep it in mind for the future.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Like the notorious Time-On-Target, it's highly effective but incredibly tedious to set up. You're better off with large alpha strikes that overwhelm enemy defences.
 

Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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It also doesn't do anything about PD (only AMMs). And PD is usually the limiting factor.

I really view it as a "nice to have" if your setup means it happens, rather than something to build a strategy around.

If your opponent is only using AMMs, though, it might be worthwhile. Since I think it's more tonnage efficient than trying to up salvo size.