Author Topic: Mesons  (Read 4424 times)

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Offline Lucifer, the Morning Star

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2018, 05:26:08 PM »
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=10229. msg111574#msg111574 date=1545949405
Quote from: somebody1212 link=topic=10229. msg111571#msg111571 date=1545945854
C# is already nerfing beam weapons in general (and fast-firing beam weapons in particular) with the failure rate, and it's buffing shields.   

The failure rate is only really an issue for constant ground bombardment.  Close energy engagements don't usually last long enough for the 1 in 50 shots failure (which is instantly repaired by MSP) to be an issue.  Also, missiles have the same failure rate, plus they can run out of ammunition.  If anything, it is more of a problem for AMM launchers.  Also, large shields may be stronger but shields have doubled in cost and their HTK has come down.  Shields smaller than 10 HS are weaker than VB6.

The only situation I can remember in any of my campaigns where constant energy fire was a concern was spending an hour to bring down the shields of a swarm mothership with a relatively weak energy-armed force firing 20cm lasers every 20 seconds.  That would have resulted in about 3. 5 failures, or about 180 MSP per laser, so the ship may have run out before the hour was up.  Even so, that was a rare marginal situation and an extra ship would have solved the problem.  Plus, that situation won't happen in C# because the Swarm are changing.

It could be an issue for energy-armed fighters without MSP, but an average of 50 shots is probably fine and MSP could be added to the fighter design if required.  Plus fighters are easier to repair with a carrier nearby, even if they do fail.

In general, C# has reduced the capabilities of missiles much more than energy weapons.

It isn't an issue for larger ships, or even individual ships.  But say I have a swarm of 100 Meson fighters, I can expect about 2 to go out per 5 second volley.  I've never seen a ship over 30k tons go down in under 30 seconds, so I'm potentially losing about 10% of my firepower per ship killed even before casualties.  Fighters already don't carry any maintenance, so they can't just repair.  Letting them only go partially through armour makes them a worse version of a laser or particle lance.  Yes, there is the chance that a single fighter can "one shot" your ship, if you are dumb and don't increase HTK on your components.  Luck is a thing , and in a component based system lucky shots will happen.  If we don't want mesons pulling a lucky shot, switch to an HP system.
 

Offline Lucifer, the Morning Star

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2018, 05:41:23 PM »
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=10229. msg111580#msg111580 date=1545953079
I'm not sure why there is a view that mesons are only effective on fighters. 

Any warship can mount mesons as long as (like any other beam-design) it has the speed to get close to its target or it lies in wait at a jump point.  They penetrate shields and armour irrespective of the relative tech levels of the combatants. 

One of the most effective places for a meson weapon is on a planet, especially during multi-race starts, as it can attack the ships of other races in orbit.  Finally, the biggest issue for C# Aurora, is that massed mesons on a planetary surface would probably massacre any drop transports, regardless of how much passive defences they had.
The view isn't that mesons are only effective on fighters, but that they are the best and really only viable option for beam fighters.  On larger ships mesons are typically just worse than a comparative beam.  Also, on the point of massed mesons on planets, I'm of the opinion that if you are sending drop ships at a planet that still has its defences in place you deserve the casualties, but it could also be solved by not letting mesons be PDCs
 
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Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2018, 05:41:34 PM »
Letting them only go partially through armour makes them a worse version of a laser or particle lance. 

They are supposed to be much worse than a particle lance. The particle lance is about 60,000 RP for the base technology vs 2000 RP for the meson, plus the particle lance is generally larger, slower to reload, more expensive, is stopped by shields and has a limit to how much armour it can penetrate.

In comparison, the meson is massively overpowered.
 

Offline somebody1212

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2018, 05:43:24 PM »
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=10229. msg111580#msg111580 date=1545953079
I'm not sure why there is a view that mesons are only effective on fighters. 

Any warship can mount mesons as long as (like any other beam-design) it has the speed to get close to its target or it lies in wait at a jump point.  They penetrate shields and armour irrespective of the relative tech levels of the combatants. 

One of the most effective places for a meson weapon is on a planet, especially during multi-race starts, as it can attack the ships of other races in orbit.  Finally, the biggest issue for C# Aurora, is that massed mesons on a planetary surface would probably massacre any drop transports, regardless of how much passive defences they had.

If the concern is about STO mesons, disallowing mesons from being used by ground units as surface-to-orbit weapons should solve that issue.

That still leaves mesons on defensive stations at the planet, but if someone sends dropships to a planet that still has defensive stations in orbit, they deserve the casualty rates they're about to get.


Aurora4x Discord: https://discord.gg/TXK6qcP
 

Offline Lucifer, the Morning Star

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2018, 05:44:44 PM »
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=10229. msg111585#msg111585 date=1545954094
Quote from: Lucifer, the Morning Star link=topic=10229. msg111581#msg111581 date=1545953168
Letting them only go partially through armour makes them a worse version of a laser or particle lance.   

They are supposed to be much worse than a particle lance.  The particle lance is about 60,000 RP for the base technology vs 2000 RP for the meson, plus the particle lance is generally larger, slower to reload, more expensive, is stopped by shields and has a limit to how much armour it can penetrate.

In comparison, the meson is massively overpowered.

I don't know man, we do a bunch of testing on the Aurora discord of designs, and even host tournaments where we compete ships, and all of our tests have shown that mesons aren't really that overpowered.  The only strategy that is mutually agreed to be overpowered is box launcher spam.  If mesons were as OP as people seem to think, I would think that we'd see more meson designs in our tournaments.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2018, 05:48:41 PM »
The view isn't that mesons are only effective on fighters, but that they are the best and really only viable option for beam fighters.  On larger ships mesons are typically just worse than a comparative beam.  Also, on the point of massed mesons on planets, I'm of the opinion that if you are sending drop ships at a planet that still has its defences in place you deserve the casualties, but it could also be solved by not letting mesons be PDCs

1) Could you explain (with numbers) why mesons on large ships are worse than lasers or railguns?
2) How do you plan to remove the meson defences without sending in the ground forces?
3) There are no PDCs in C# Aurora.
 

Offline Lucifer, the Morning Star

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2018, 05:51:36 PM »
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=10229. msg111588#msg111588 date=1545954521
Quote from: Lucifer, the Morning Star link=topic=10229. msg111584#msg111584 date=1545954083
The view isn't that mesons are only effective on fighters, but that they are the best and really only viable option for beam fighters.   On larger ships mesons are typically just worse than a comparative beam.   Also, on the point of massed mesons on planets, I'm of the opinion that if you are sending drop ships at a planet that still has its defences in place you deserve the casualties, but it could also be solved by not letting mesons be PDCs

1) Could you explain (with numbers) why mesons on large ships are worse than lasers or railguns?
2) How do you plan to remove the meson defences without sending in the ground forces?
3) There are no PDCs in C# Aurora.
1) on mobile, numbers will take a second. 
2) orbital bombardment
3) my bad, I was referring to the STO weapons and miscalled them
 

Offline Iceranger

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2018, 05:52:33 PM »
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=10229. msg111580#msg111580 date=1545953079
I'm not sure why there is a view that mesons are only effective on fighters. 

Any warship can mount mesons as long as (like any other beam-design) it has the speed to get close to its target or it lies in wait at a jump point.  They penetrate shields and armour irrespective of the relative tech levels of the combatants. 

One of the most effective places for a meson weapon is on a planet, especially during multi-race starts, as it can attack the ships of other races in orbit.  Finally, the biggest issue for C# Aurora, is that massed mesons on a planetary surface would probably massacre any drop transports, regardless of how much passive defences they had.

As I have mentioned in another post, in Aurora there is no real PvP, and the meson is not the 'go to' weapon of choice, so I don't understand why they are overpowered or unbalanced.  In fact, their cheap RP cost enables the player to fight back when encountering a tech advanced spoiler.  I'd say that is better than a death sentence for gameplay.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2018, 05:58:01 PM »
I don't know man, we do a bunch of testing on the Aurora discord of designs, and even host tournaments where we compete ships, and all of our tests have shown that mesons aren't really that overpowered.  The only strategy that is mutually agreed to be overpowered is box launcher spam.  If mesons were as OP as people seem to think, I would think that we'd see more meson designs in our tournaments.

Aurora is designed for campaign play rather than tournaments. The factors in a campaign are totally different than those in a one-off battle and you face very different constraints.
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2018, 05:58:32 PM »
I'm not sure why there is a view that mesons are only effective on fighters.

Any warship can mount mesons as long as (like any other beam-design) it has the speed to get close to its target or it lies in wait at a jump point. They penetrate shields and armour irrespective of the relative tech levels of the combatants.

One of the most effective places for a meson weapon is on a planet, especially during multi-race starts, as it can attack the ships of other races in orbit. Finally, the biggest issue for C# Aurora, is that massed mesons on a planetary surface would probably massacre any drop transports, regardless of how much passive defences they had.

This seems like a pretty easy to counter tactic to me. Stick warships outside meson range of the planet, then send one transport in. If mesons fire at it, retreat it (if it survives) and have the warships bombard the now revealed STO mesons. Repeat as needed.

Meson STO weapons seem pretty potent, but you'll only get one shot on the surprise reveal, and then their short range will leave them extremely vulnerable.
 

Offline Lucifer, the Morning Star

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2018, 06:01:52 PM »
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=10229. msg111591#msg111591 date=1545955081
Quote from: Lucifer, the Morning Star link=topic=10229. msg111587#msg111587 date=1545954284
I don't know man, we do a bunch of testing on the Aurora discord of designs, and even host tournaments where we compete ships, and all of our tests have shown that mesons aren't really that overpowered.   The only strategy that is mutually agreed to be overpowered is box launcher spam.   If mesons were as OP as people seem to think, I would think that we'd see more meson designs in our tournaments.

Aurora is designed for campaign play rather than tournaments.  The factors in a campaign are totally different than those in a one-off battle and you face very different constraints.
See icerangers comment
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2018, 06:05:07 PM »
I'm not sure why there is a view that mesons are only effective on fighters.

Any warship can mount mesons as long as (like any other beam-design) it has the speed to get close to its target or it lies in wait at a jump point. They penetrate shields and armour irrespective of the relative tech levels of the combatants.

One of the most effective places for a meson weapon is on a planet, especially during multi-race starts, as it can attack the ships of other races in orbit. Finally, the biggest issue for C# Aurora, is that massed mesons on a planetary surface would probably massacre any drop transports, regardless of how much passive defences they had.

This seems like a pretty easy to counter tactic to me. Stick warships outside meson range of the planet, then send one transport in. If mesons fire at it, retreat it (if it survives) and have the warships bombard the now revealed STO mesons. Repeat as needed.

Meson STO weapons seem pretty potent, but you'll only get one shot on the surprise reveal, and then their short range will leave them extremely vulnerable.

I think if I was using mesons on defence, I would support them with longer ranged weapons as well (especially given the 25% range boost), plus it will be a lot easier for the fortified ground-based weapons to hit the ships than the reverse, especially in rough terrain. If the attacker has enough ships and is prepared to take casualties, then it is possible to overcome the defences. In fact, I think that is probably the likely scenario for attacking colony worlds. Home world invasions, I suspect, will be extremely bloody (as they should be).
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2018, 06:07:29 PM »
What about an 8th option: Strongly reduce their accuracy

Here's my understanding of the fluff around mesons right now: Mesons are particles traveling at near light-speed that can pass through anything, which when they decay they release a large amount of energy.  Ideally, your mesons will decay within your target.

Well presumably, it's pretty difficult to time exactly when the meson should decay, considering how fast it's traveling.  Ships are small compared to space, it seems pretty easily to accidentally have the meson decay 100m too early or 100m too late.  Both of these situations would be misses.
 
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Offline Panopticon

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2018, 06:10:50 PM »
If mesons are the best and only viable option for beam fighters, then doesn't that suggest they are overpowered? I mean you are talking about throwing away potentially dozens of fighters on the chance that you get to land one or two meson hits, that's a fair amount of BP and research investment trading off for a couple of successful shots don't you think? It basically turns fighters into more expensive, lower damage long range missiles that penetrate armor.

Look at it this way, in VB6 Aurora the Star Swarm uses mesons exclusively and they require purpose built fleets to deal with safely because experienced players know they can't risk any ships being in range of their weapons for even one five second interval, could we really say that if they used railguns or lasers?

All this leaves aside the power of mesons in multi-faction, same planet games, in the last multiplayer game I participated in my faction got Meson PDCs online before anyone else and the only reason we didn't take over the world was because the person running the game made us stop. At low tech levels they are pretty much the ultimate weapon.

I don't think "git gud" is an appropriate response to criticisms of the weapon in this forum either, someone mentioned that if you lose your million ton warship to a single meson fighter then they deserve to, but proponents of meson fighters literally count on this scenario, if only bad people lose to meson fighters, then how can meson fighters be good? To me the answer is meson fighters are really good and the argument is disingenuous at best.

All that said, personally I don't know how mesons would compare in C# Aurora, I kinda think that as long as they aren't an early game technology that takes over multi-faction starts they might be just fine without other changes. But I like the idea of them being a ruin or spoiler specific tech, I think there should be more reasons to salvage and explore other than incremental upgrades.
 
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Offline Lucifer, the Morning Star

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Re: Mesons
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2018, 06:12:17 PM »
Quote from: Barkhorn link=topic=10229. msg111595#msg111595 date=1545955649
What about an 8th option: Strongly reduce their accuracy

Here's my understanding of the fluff around mesons right now: Mesons are particles traveling at near light-speed that can pass through anything, which when they decay they release a large amount of energy.   Ideally, your mesons will decay within your target.

Well presumably, it's pretty difficult to time exactly when the meson should decay, considering how fast it's traveling.   Ships are small compared to space, it seems pretty easily to accidentally have the meson decay 100m too early or 100m too late.   Both of these situations would be misses.
I get the feeling you've never actually used mesons, as they are inaccurate as balls already.  Reducing the hit rate more and add in ECM and you aren't going to be hitting a planet from surface level
 

 

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