Author Topic: Discussions  (Read 9905 times)

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Offline Haegan2005

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #180 on: May 02, 2009, 02:23:35 PM »
For Playtest 3 we have added a variety of things, but the most important are Automation and Efficiency. These effect population usage and upkeep for the infrastructure and transport layers.

As a side note, it is going to be easy to run out of population quickly when building infrastructure and facilities as they eat up anywhere from 100k to 500k of population for each one. A beginning nation would be wise to spend on automation early so that you can continue to keep expanding your infrastructure base without hitting the population wall.
 

Offline Þórgrímr

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #181 on: May 02, 2009, 02:53:14 PM »
Good point Haegan. Since we added the new population, prestige, popularity, and Auto/Eff rules the game has expanded in a whole new direction. Population is no longer just a resource or wealth generator. You have to actually employ them and take care of them.  :D



Cheers, Þórgrímr
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
 

Offline Haegan2005

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #182 on: August 23, 2009, 01:33:19 AM »
We are now testing colonization of other planets and little details like pirates and racial diplomacy.

The following are mech battalions for my race:

Very Heavy Artillery Walker:  (closest to a MAC II from Robotech)
97wu /174pp /1BE   14 mos prod time
Industrial Upkeep: 0.7, Wealth Upkeep: 0.1, Fuel Upkeep: 0.3
AR 26/13 DR 26/13 0 PP
TL 12, +6 Artillary Extended Range, +1 Sensors, +3 ECCM, +1 Legs

Combat Walkers: (Newest unit, legs included in PP cost, may end up buying arms for it... 8) )
110wu /162pp /1BE   13 mos prod time
Industrial Upkeep: 0.3, Wealth Upkeep: 0.1, Fuel Upkeep: 0.2
AR 19/23 DR 15/19 0 PP
TL 12, +3 Weapons, +1 Sensors, +1 Shields/Point Defenses

Main Battle Tank Walkers: (walking tanks, old design)
112wu /132pp /2BE   11 mos prod time
Industrial Upkeep: 0.3, Wealth Upkeep: 0.1, Fuel Upkeep: 0.1
AR 18/23 DR 14/15 0 PP
TL 12, +3 Weapons, +1 Legs, +1 Battle Computer, +1 Sensors

more to come!
 

Offline Sirus

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #183 on: June 01, 2010, 08:55:12 PM »
Interested, but confused. Is this a tabletop wargame? Indie computer program a-la Aurora? Pen-and-paper RPG? I'm a huge fan of the 4x genre, and would dearly love to try BTS! out  :D
 

Offline Þórgrímr

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #184 on: June 01, 2010, 09:21:31 PM »
Quote from: "Sirus"
Interested, but confused. Is this a tabletop wargame? Indie computer program a-la Aurora? Pen-and-paper RPG? I'm a huge fan of the 4x genre, and would dearly love to try BTS! out  :D

So the best short description is this small quote from the rules:

Beyond the Stars! is designed as a 4X - eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, and eXterminate - computer assisted Nation simulation game. Players send their orders to the GM and he or she will process them and reply with the turn results.

So if you are interested head on over to the Gunny Pubs Forums and register. Then PM me and let me know you wish to join and I will add you to the players group so you play.   :D



Cheers, Thor
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
 

Offline Sirus

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #185 on: June 01, 2010, 09:25:16 PM »
Sounds interesting! Methinks I will sign up, after reading the rules. Thanks for the quick response  :)
 

Offline Þórgrímr

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #186 on: June 01, 2010, 09:30:34 PM »
Quote from: "Sirus"
Sounds interesting! Methinks I will sign up, after reading the rules. Thanks for the quick response  :D



Cheers, Thor
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
 

Offline Þórgrímr

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #187 on: January 31, 2013, 03:15:22 PM »
Back when I first began to create Beyond the Stars! I had to make some hard decisions concerning major engine designs for the game. One of these decisions was how a player would design and create his units.

I had boiled it down to two methods:

1.) A Unit would have Manpower and Equipment Points, along with a Manpower Training time, and an Equipment Point Construction time.

2.) Combine it all and use a formula to, somewhat, reflect reality, but have only what was called BE's, or Battalion Equivalents.

I originally wanted to use method one, but I talked myself out of using it because I thought it would make things more complex. Suffice it to say, to create a Unit using method 2 required a rather complex algebraic formula. This was the reason behind Haegan creating the Unitmaker. This program did all of the math for the player and spat out a design.

Needless to say, I was always uneasy using this method. The units were taking far too long to build and just did not 'feel' right. It was more akin to building robot armies, rather than armies of men and machines.

Over the last month I had finally resolved to undo that huge mistake and rewrote the Unit Creation rules. Now a player forms a unit by training the Manpower and building the equipment that the unit being formed will use. I think going this route actually simplifies the Unit Creation rules a bit. In this, and the next couple of posts are some examples involving Land, Air, and Naval unit formation. Any input would be very helpful.  :)

Unit Stat Examples:
All examples are for Complex Battalions.

Code: [Select]
Battalion Type           AR     DR     AM     Cost:WU/EP/MP     Size
____________________________________________________________________
Leg Infantry             1/2    2/2    0/1    2.5/1EP/.5MP      .5
Mech Inf                 3/4    3/4    3/3     10/1EP/1MP        1
Lt Tank                  7/1    5/1    3/3      5/1EP/1MP        1
Main Battle Tank         8/3    7/3    6/6     10/1EP/1MP        2
Very Heavy Tank          11/3   10/3   8/8     12.5/1EP/1MP      3


Land Unit Example:
The Terran player determines that he needs more Equipment Points to train more Mechanized Infantry Battalions. So the player begins to build the equipment he needs. A Mechanized Infantry Battalion uses Infantry Fighting Vehicles as the equipment. Although IFV's are a bit more expensive than APC's, their increased combat capabilities makes them more than just the battle taxi's that APC's are for a Motorized Infantry Battalion. The player knows the cost is 55 WU's and 5 IUU's per equipment point for IFV's. However, this is not enough for his plans so he adds a +1 Anti-Tank Weapons Cap (TOW ATGM) to his design. So each IFV Equipment Point with the +1 Anti-Tank Weapons Cap has a cost of 57 WU’s, an IUU cost of 7, and a construction time of 18 weeks.

The player now determines he wants to train a Mechanized Infantry Battalion. He begins by finding the Mechanized Infantry training time in the above list, which is 18 weeks. Then the player divides his Eng Tech level by two, rounded up, which ends up as 4. Then he adds 3 weeks for the +1 Anti-Tank Weapons cap. The time needed for training is 25 weeks. The cost to train the new Battalion is 10 WU's, .5 of an Active, or Reservist Manpower BE, and 1 Equipment Point of IFV's from the Manpower and Equipment Pools. He then assigns it to the 43rd Mechanized Infantry Training Battalion, which has a training slot remaining to be able train the new unit. His Unit Control Sheet would look like the following:

Mechanized Infantry Battalion
10wu/7iuu/.5 A mp/1 IFV EP/Bn
AR 4/5 - DR 4/5 AM 3/3
Industrial Upkeep: .1, Wealth Upkeep: .1, Fuel Upkeep: .1
TL7 +1 Anti-Tank Weapons (TOW ATGM)



Cheers, Thor
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
 

Offline Þórgrímr

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #188 on: January 31, 2013, 03:24:25 PM »
Up next is the new Naval Unit Formation Example. Any input is welcome.

Naval Unit Stat Examples:
All examples are for Complex Naval ships.

Code: [Select]
Ship Type           AR     DR     AM     Cost:WU/IUU     Size  
________________________________________________________________
Gunboat             1/1    1/2    0/0        40/2         1
Destroyer           3/4    3/4    1/1        75/12        2            
Battleship          6/2    6/6    2/5       200/60        5            


Naval Unit Example:
The Terran player determines he needs a freighter with a larger than normal cargo capacity. So the player begins to design a freighter to the specs he needs. First he decides to use the Super Freighter as the base template. He knows it can carry 10 times the normal cargo capacity of a same tech regular freighter, which at Eng Tech level 7 is 1,000 TEU's. So the base template of his design has a cargo capacity of 10,000 TEU's. However, this is not enough for his plans so he adds a +1 Cargo cap to his design and decides to add a Regular Diesel engine to power his design.

The Super Freighter has a base cost of 40 WUs and 8 IUUs and size 4 per freighter, but since the player has added a +1 Cargo Cap, it has a new base cost of 42 WUs and 10 IUUs that he multiplies by 4 for a final cost of 168 WUs and 40 IUUs. The player then assigns it to a Ship Yard that has a slipway with the capacity to construct it. The Construction time for the new Super Freighter is 16 weeks, with a cargo capacity of 15,000 TEU's.

Now the Player must determine the cost and how long it will take to train crew for the new ship. The cost to train a crew for a Super Freighter is as follows; 10 wus and 1 Manpower Point. The Base Ship Class Training time for a Super Freighter is 6 weeks, and the eng TL is 7/2 = 4, and the +1 Cargo Cap adds 3 weeks. So the time needed to Train the Ship's Crew is 6+4+3=13 weeks. The Final Talley is 10 WUs, 1 Manpower Point, and 13 weeks to train the crew.

His Super Freighter Class template would look like the following:

Super Freighter: 15,000TEU's - Texaco Class
10wu/1 mp/1 st ep/ 16 wks prod time
Industrial Upkeep: 0.1, Wealth Upkeep: 0.1, Fuel Upkeep: 0.1 (Oil)
AR 0/0 DR 0/1 AM 0/1 4 PP
TL 7, +1 Cargo Capacity, +1 Regular Diesel Engine



Cheers, Thor
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 03:26:09 PM by Þórgrímr »
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
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Offline Þórgrímr

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #189 on: January 31, 2013, 03:39:12 PM »
Up next is the Air Unit Example. Any input would be most helpful.


Air Unit Examples:
All examples are for Complex Air Squadrons.

Code: [Select]
Equipment Type          AA     GA     DR     EW      Cost:WU/EP/IUU     Size
____________________________________________________________________________
Strike Fighter          0/1    0/8    0/1    1/0         8/2EP/6         2
Super Fighter           4/8    2/4    3/6    1/1        10/1EP/12        1           
Naval Strike Fighter    0/1    0/8    0/1    1/0         8/1EP/6         1
Gunship                 0/2    0/8    0/0    1/1        7.5/3EP/6        1


Air Unit Example:
The Terran player wishes to give his ground forces some air support. Some attack helicopters, some multi-role fighters, and even some AWACS.

For the helicopters he takes the base Type 'Gunship', and creates an apropriate equipment point, which has a cost of 75 WUs, 6 IUU's, size 1, and a construction time of 7 weeks. He decides to take advantage of the armor option and adds one point (+2 WUs and +2 IUUs). Were it a normal aircraft Squadron this would automatically make it either slower or less manueverable. However, for a Gunship Aviation Equipment Point Design, the first point of armor is free of this maneuver minus. The Terran Player decides he wants another point of armor on his Gunship helicopters, another (+2 WUs and +2 IUUs). The design has to pay for this one in performance, and he chooses to make the helicopter design less maneuverable. He also wants some extra heavy guns on his flying tank (+2 WUs and + 2 IUUs), so he takes a final Added Capability. He then takes the base cost of 75 WUs and 6 IUUs and adds in the Cap WU and IUU cost of 6 WUs and 6 IUUs. Then he multiplies this amount by one (the size modifier), and one Squadron of 12 of these attack Gunships costs 81 WUs 12 IUUs and takes 7 weeks to construct.

Now the player must determine how long it will take to train the pilots and ground crews for the new Squadron. He begins by finding the Gunship training time in the above list, which is 22 weeks. Then the player divides his Eng Tech level by two, rounded up, which ends up as 4. Then he adds 9 weeks for the +1 Weapons (Heavy Cannon) cap and the +2 Armor Cap. The time needed for training is 35 weeks. The cost to train the new Attack Helicopter Battalion is 7.5 WU's, 1 Active, or Reservist Manpower BE, and Gunship 1 Equipment Point from the Manpower and Equipment Pools. He then assigns it to the 1/434th Gunship Training Battalion, which has a training slot remaining to be able train the new unit. His Unit Control Sheet would look like the following:

Warlord Gunship
7.5wu/1mp/1 GS ep/ squadron, size 1
AA 0/2 GA 1/9 DR 2/4 EW 1/1
Industrial Upkeep: .2, Wealth Upkeep: .1, Fuel Upkeep: .1
TL7 +2 Armor, +1 Weapons (Heavy Cannon), -1 Manuverability (Armor effect)


Example Two:
For fighters, the Terran player decides he wants something that can do a host of tasks. For the Fighters he takes the base Type 'Fighter', and creates an apropriate equipment point, which has a cost of 75 wus, 4 IUU's, size 1, and a construction time of 18 weeks. He decides to take one point of Multi-Role (+2 wu and +2 iuu). Any aircraft can drop bombs, of course, but now this fighter is a true fighter-bomber. He then takes the base cost of 75 WUs and 4 IUUs and adds in the Cap WU and IUU costs of 2 WUs and 2 IUUs. Then he multiplies this amount by one (the size modifier), and one equipment point of these attack Fighters costs 77 WUs 6 IUUs and takes 7 weeks to construct. However, the Terran Player wants his Squadron to have 24 aircraft in the Squadron. So he builds another equipment point. The total for both equipment points comes to 144 WUs and 12 IUUs.

Now the player must determine how long it will take to train the pilots and ground crews for the new Squadron. He begins by finding the Fighter training time in the above list, which is 48 weeks. Then the player divides his Eng Tech level by two, rounded up, which ends up as 4. Then he adds 3 weeks for the +1 Multi-Role cap. The time needed for training is 55 weeks. The cost to train the new Multi-Role Fighter Squadron is 7.5 WU's x 2 (Size) 15 WU's, 2 Active, or Reservist Manpower BE's, and 2 Fighter Equipment Points from the Manpower and Equipment Pools. He then assigns it to the 254th Fighter Training Squadron, which has a training slot remaining to be able train the new unit. His Unit Control Sheet would look like the following:

F-16 Falcon
15wu/2mp/2 F ep/ Squadron, Size 2
AA 0/10 GA 0/8 DR 4/16 EW 0/0
Industrial Upkeep: .4, Wealth Upkeep: .2, Fuel Upkeep: .2
TL7 +1 Multi-Role (weapons)


Example Three:
Buying his AWACS now, the Terran player takes the Sensor Aircraft based on the Heavy Airlift Type which has a base cost of 50 WUs, 16 IUU's +8 IUUs for sensor aircraft, a size of 2, and a construction time of 40 weeks. He adds in 2 levels of sensor range (+4WU's, +4IUU's), and 1 level of ECCM (+2WU's, +2IUU's) to deal with ECM and stealth. The construction cost will come out to: 50 WU's x 2 (Size) 100 WU's, and 30 IUU's x 2 (Size) 60 IUU's, with a construction time of 40 weeks for 1 Equipment Point of AWACS.

Now the player must determine how long it will take to train the pilots and ground crews for the new Squadron. He begins by finding the Heavy Airlift training time in the above list, which is 48 weeks, which he increases to 72 weeks due to the Sensor Aircraft ability. Then the player divides his Eng Tech level by two, rounded up, which ends up as 4. Then he adds 9 weeks for the +1 ECCM and +2 Sensors caps. The time needed for training is 85 weeks. The cost to train the new AWACs Squadron is 7.5 WU's, 1 Active, or Reservist Manpower BE, and 1 AWACs Equipment Point from the Manpower and Equipment Pools. He then assigns it to the 19th AWACs Training Squadron, which has a training slot remaining to be able train the new unit. His Unit Control Sheet would look like the following:

E3A AWACS (Sensor)
7.5wu/1mp/1 AWACs ep/Squadron, size 2
AA 0/0 GA 0/0 DR 0/0 EW 0/1
Industrial Upkeep: .1, Wealth Upkeep: .1, Fuel Upkeep: .1+.1
TL7 +2 Sensors +1 ECCM



Cheers, Thor
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
 

Offline haegan2007

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #190 on: January 31, 2013, 08:03:51 PM »
Can we have a sample of a "arsenal" ship?

A space and a wet ship should do it well.  We may also want to look at missile design as well


Quote from: Þórgrímr link=topic=1061. msg59895#msg59895 date=1359667465
Up next is the new Naval Unit Formation Example.  Any input is welcome.

Naval Unit Stat Examples:
All examples are for Complex Naval ships.

Code: [Select]
Ship Type           AR     DR     AM     Cost:WU/IUU     Size  
________________________________________________________________
Gunboat             1/1    1/2    0/0        40/2         1
Destroyer           3/4    3/4    1/1        75/12        2            
Battleship          6/2    6/6    2/5       200/60        5            
 

Offline Þórgrímr

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #191 on: January 31, 2013, 08:10:05 PM »
Can we have a sample of a "arsenal" ship?

A space and a wet ship should do it well.  We may also want to look at missile design as well

I will work on it.  :)



Cheers, Thor
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
 

Offline Þórgrímr

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #192 on: February 01, 2013, 05:57:41 PM »
If I remember the concept clearly, in the 80's, IIRC there was a plan to build a Battleship-sized warship that could, literally, swamp an enemy with a missile salvo capable of overwhelming any fleet's point defenses.

Below is my interpretation of that concept.  :) As always, comments are requested.


Example Two:
The Terran player determines that he needs to build a Dreadnought-sized warship with a larger than normal missile capacity. So the player begins to design the Anti-Ship missile he will use on the Arsenal ships. First he decides to use the Single Stage Rocket Equipment Point as the base template. However, he knows that he has to add a warhead and that a plain old ASM is not enough for his plans. So he adds a +2 Anti-Ship Warhead cap to his design for the added punch he needs, and decides to add a +1 ECM, and a +1 ECCM to his design. Normally, this would make for a VERY expensive ASM, so the player makes sure he has the -2 Expendable Reduced Cap. The player knows that the base cost for SSR's is 10 WU's, 2 IUU's, and 1 week of construction. To this he adds 8-4=4 WU's, and 8-4=4 IUU's for a final cost of 14 WU's and 6 IUu's, with a construction time of 1 week.

Now the player must determine what the ship itself will consist of. First he decides to use the Dreadnought Class Warship as the base template. However, he wants this ship to be, basically, a missile throwing monster of a ship. So he adds a +2 Deck Capacity Cap, a +1 Cargo Capacity specialized for missiles, a +1 Fleet Command Ship, a +2 External Point Defense, and equips it with a regular Diesel Engine he had already built and had in storage. The Dreadnought has a base cost of 400 WU's, 96 IUU's and size 6 per ship, but since the player has added a +2 Deck Cap, +1 Cargo Cap, +1 Fleet Command Ship Cap, and a +2 Point Defense Cap, and the engine to the design, it has a new base cost of 414 WUs and 110 IUU's that he multiplies by 6 for a final cost of 2484 WU's and 660 IUU's. The player then assigns it to a Ship Yard that has a slipway with the capacity to construct it. The Construction time for the new Arsenal Ship is 60+4+21= 85 weeks, with a cargo capacity of 2,000 TEU's of only missiles.

Now the Player must determine the cost and how long it will take to train crew for the new ship. The cost and time to train a crew for a Dreadnought is as follows; 40 WU's and 5 Manpower points. The Base Ship Class Training time for a Dreadnought is 48 weeks, and the eng TL is 7/2 = 4, and the Caps adds 7x3= 21 weeks. So the time needed to Train the Ship's Crew is 48+4+21= 73 weeks. The Final Talley is 40 WU's, 5 Manpower points, and 73 weeks to train the crew.

His Missile and Arsenal Ship Designs would look like the following:

Single Stage Rocket: Harpoon
14wu/6iuu/ Per EP - size .33 TEU
Industrial Upkeep: 0.02, Wealth Upkeep: 0.01, Fuel Upkeep: 0.01
AA 0/0 GA* 8/8 DR 1/1 EW 1/1
TL 7, +2 Anti-Ship Warhead, +1 ECM, +1 ECCM, -2 expendable
* = Naval Units Only

Dreadnought: Arsenal Ship - Terra Class - TEU's - 2000, Missiles Only
2484wu/660iuu/5 mp/ 85 wks to commission - 70 DP's - SSR Missiles Only
Industrial Upkeep: 0.3, Wealth Upkeep: 0.2, Fuel Upkeep: 0.1
AR 10/5 DR 11/11 AM 3/9
TL 7, +2 Deck Capacity (SSR Missile Cells), +1 Cargo Capacity (Missiles), +1 Fleet Command Ship, +2 Point Defense (External)
Engine: +1 Regular Diesel Engine

Now, a bit of explanation of what this stuff means.  ;D

In BTS! warships normally get to fire off missile salvos equal to their size. So, without any Deck Capacity, a normal DN can spit out 6 salvos of missiles per combat round, but this ship with a +2 Deck rating gets to double the base rate twice for a final salvo count of 36 missile salvos per combat round. Each salvo consumes 1 ep of SSR's per combat round. The Arsenal Ship will consume 36 ep's of Harpoons per combat round.

Each TEU can hold 1 size point of missiles. Since SSR's are .33 in size, each TEU of Cargo Space can hold 3 SSR class missiles. So this ship, when its cargo holds are filled, has 6,000 points of Harpoon missiles. Moreover, this equates to 166.6 combat rounds of ammunition. Truly an Arsenal Ship if I say so.  ;D



Cheers, Thor
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 07:05:11 PM by Þórgrímr »
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
 

Offline haegan2007

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #193 on: February 01, 2013, 06:58:33 PM »
Now that is a cloud of missiles.  That would require a large fleet with serious point defense to stop everything!  :o

Never mind the salvos from its escorts. . .
 

Offline Þórgrímr

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Re: Discussions
« Reply #194 on: February 01, 2013, 07:01:47 PM »
Now that is a cloud of missiles.  That would require a large fleet with serious point defense to stop everything!  :o

Never mind the salvos from its escorts. . .

Yep, that it would. It was the sheer number of missiles, and their costs, that scared of Congress. They liked the concept, but did not want to foot the bill to build the ships.  :)



Cheers, Thor
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
 

 

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