Author Topic: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion  (Read 15837 times)

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Offline spazomatic

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2020, 11:15:01 AM »
I always liked the mechanics of shields consuming fuel to keep running, is it possible this can be added in the future as a selectable option at game creation or something?  Also, I like the maintenance failures but personally find the rewind/overhaul mechanics really burdensome, is there any chance of decoupling these two mechanics in the game options?
 

Offline SpikeTheHobbitMage

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2020, 11:36:04 AM »
So, as far as I understand, the racial bonus is 10% of the Ancient construct bonus. And you need 100% total racial bonus in the galaxy for rifts to stop growing.
As such, you need a total of 1000% bonus worth in Active Ancient Constructs in the galaxy for rifts to stop growing, and more than that if you want them to shrink and eventually close down.

Assuming that the average construct gives a 40% bonus (old anomalies used to give between 20 and 60% bonus), that's more than 25 of them active for the Invaders threat to be eventually defeated.

I have to ask Steve... how common are they? I never, never in all my games of Aurora saw more than 4-6 anomalies per game. 25+ of them seems an unreacheable number with the frequency they had in the past.

They range from 20% to 100%. In my test crusade game, there were 15 with a total of 920% bonus by the time I abandoned it in year 25. I'm actually concerned it is too easy, although the requirements of finding and surveying the ruins and establishing a population of 1m will slow it down. Bear in mind they are constructs controlled by any race, not just player races. In that game there were two NPRs. I'll see how it goes with testing.

Should there be a scaling based on maximum galaxy size?

It sort of scales itself. With a larger galaxy there is more chance that Invaders will appear. I probably should scale it on number of starting NPRs though. The concept will need more play-testing in general though.
You aren't generating the full galaxy at game start, so it scales according to the currently explored systems rather than the maximum.  As such it should already be effectively scaling to # of NPRs.  The only problem I see is if the invaders themselves can explore new systems, in which case they will grow unchecked until the whole galaxy has been explored.  Another possible limit would be to have invaders return home through the rifts if there is no existing route to any inhabited systems.  That way if an NPR gets wiped out before it contacts its neighbours there won't be a huge swarm waiting if and when someone else finally connects to that area.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2020, 11:42:55 AM »
Is Gene editing gonna make it to 1.10 or are you holding off on it for some reason (changes from VB or something you want to add)?

Probably not. Not actively holding off - more lacking enthusiasm to add :)
 
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2020, 11:45:29 AM »
As I mentioned in the OP, this thread is to discuss changes announced for v1.10. If you have suggestions for future versions, please add them to the suggestions thread. If you make suggestions here they will be passed over and probably forgotten by the time I start working through the suggestions thread,
 
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Offline Iceranger

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2020, 12:17:03 PM »
A few questions regarding the rift and the Invaders:

Is there a limit on how large the rift can be? If one of these is in a system that I don't care about, can it grow as large as the system?

Can the invader's raider groups spawn at any location in the rift, or just at the center?

Are there any harmful effects/penalties to the ships fighting/transiting within the rifts?
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2020, 12:59:34 PM »
A few questions regarding the rift and the Invaders:

Is there a limit on how large the rift can be? If one of these is in a system that I don't care about, can it grow as large as the system?

Can the invader's raider groups spawn at any location in the rift, or just at the center?

Are there any harmful effects/penalties to the ships fighting/transiting within the rifts?

No limit on size - give enough time it can fill the system. Invader groups spawn anywhere in the rift, not just the centre. If there is more than one rift, invaders may spawn simultaneously in multiple rifts (they are distributed, not duplicated). No penalties to ships (so far). I have considered having some form of penalty to ships without shields or maybe to ships with holes in their armour, but I haven't implemented anything.
 
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Offline Migi

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2020, 01:21:39 PM »
No limit on size - give enough time it can fill the system.
You should probably put some sort of limit to stop it overflowing into negative values.

What happens if you turn Invaders on then later turn them off, do the ships and rifts disappear or does it just prevent new ones from spawning?
 

Offline UberWaffe

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2020, 01:23:16 PM »
I have thought a lot about the invader implementation. I like the rifts and the nature of the invaders as a extragalactic force.
I like, that as the rift grows, the invaders become stronger and stronger, making the fight against them harder, as time progresses.

I feel like there should be some way of fighting the invaders without conquering a all the required ancient constructs and waiting for the rift to close. At that point the fight against the invaders is won anyway.
In unlucky circumstances, I might not be finding ancient constructs and there might be rifts blocking my way to further exploration. There should be a way to close a rift locally, even if it is very expensive and dangerous, or requires the entire military of a mid tier empire. Just the possibility is important so I have something to work towards, if I'm in one of the above situations.
For example, rifts could have a stationary stabilisation platform with a large escort located in the middle of the rift. Without the platform, the rift would close slowly. The invaders could get combat bonuses when fighting inside the rift, so that it won't be easy to take down.
I'm reluctant to suggest ideas given that we haven't played with the new rift mechanic yet, but here goes.

I would say that ruins auto-suppressing rifts might make the player feel a bit uninvolved. So here are some things / ideas to consider.

Make rifts spawn and growth be more severe in unoccupied space.
  • System with active ruins: Rift grows at normal speed. Ruin global suppression can reverse rift growth. Full bonus of local ruins are applied on top of global suppression as bonus.
  • System with 5B+ population, and no ruins: Rift grows at normal speed. Ruin global suppression can at most slow growth by 90%. New rifts cannot spawn in system if global suppression is above 100%.
  • System with no (or little) population, and no ruins: Rifts grow twice as fast, and ruin global suppression can at most slow growth by 50% (down to normal growth speed). Global suppression only count for 20% of what it actually is. New rifts cannot spawn in system if global suppression is above 500% (100% at the 20% rate).
The idea here is that systems with ruins are somewhat like 'bastions'. Populated systems are at risk, but decently okay to defend. Empty systems are eldritch beachheads that will devolve into system-wide hell-scapes in short order.

Allow player to fight rifts in an active manner:
The main means of closing rifts (and only means for systems with no ruins), is by gravitation surveying of new survey locations spawned by rift.
There are always at least 1 of these rift gravitational survey locations per rift. As soon as one is surveyed, another spawns (unless the rift is closed entirely.) Larger rifts have more simultaneous survey locations.
These rift survey locations require a large amount of survey points to survey.
Surveying one of these survey locations reduces the size of the rift in a linear fashion (Not a percentage. So less effective per survey location for larger rifts.)
Surveying one of these survey locations has a small chance to spawn an attack from the rift. Chance goes up if rift is larger.
If a rift is closed via gravitational surveying / manipulation, a new rift will not spawn in that system for a year and a day. (Or whatever timespan makes sense.)

The idea:
  • Build on existing game mechanics. (New table of foreign key links between rifts and gravitational survey locations can hopefully keep this relatively cleanly split from existing DB structure and code.)
  • Encourage new ship designs for this situation.
  • Closing a rift is possible, but dangerous, and can to some degree be brute forced.
  • If you let a rift grow, you will suffer for it.
  • You get some breathing room if you pull it off.

Involve ground combat in fighting rifts:
If a rift completely overwhelms (no population left) a large enough system body (at least 0.1G?) a ground force from the rift is spawned on the system body, along with a rift anomaly.
A rift anomaly slightly speeds up the growth rate of the rift it is connected to.
Once such a rift anomaly is spawned on a system body, it remains even if the system body leaves the rift. (Orbits and whatnot.)
Surveying a rift anomaly via Xenoarchaeology shrinks the rift in the same manner as a gravitational survey would.
These count as rift survey locations, so new orbital gravitation rift survey locations will not spawn if enough planet-side rift anomalies exist in system.
These anomalies do not grant any other benefits. They are not ruins or research bonuses. (If we want to reward players, I'd rather spawn a beneficial anomaly on a system body if a rift is closed entirely.)

The idea:
  • Build on existing game mechanics. (New table of foreign key links between rifts and gravitational survey locations can hopefully keep this relatively cleanly split from existing DB structure and code.)
  • Encourage early response to new rifts. If you let them dig in...
  • Same general mechanics as void-side gravitational surveying to close the rift.

Pity us greenhorns:
Make strength of rift invaders configurable in game menu / options.
 
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Offline Alsadius

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2020, 02:22:28 PM »
Rifts are a cool concept, but I feel like they should be affected by more than just anomaly count. I kind of want there to be a tech involved, which could let players have a bit more active control over rift closing speed.

Given that gene modding isn't in the game yet, the Biology/Genetics tree is still very sparse. (Heck, even with it in, it's not the deepest tree). I'm trying to think of whether this tech could be added there. It'd require a particular sort of flavor for this to make sense, but if you're "studying the alien physiology" or something, it could work. Reminds me a bit of analyzing psychic aliens in games like X-Com or Alpha Centauri.

Offline Bughunter

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2020, 02:23:44 PM »
Ancient constructs are interesting considering how they could (possibly) lead to both conflict and cooperation.

As described now you need 1M pop to use them. That is not a huge investment and if you conquer them they would keep operate under the new ownership with the existing pop. I would like to see some more "cost" to conquering them. Say you have to construct a building to get the rift-reducing effect. One that is easily destroyed by any form of combat. Suddenly conquering them is a much tougher choice and if you do it would definitely have to be by ground invasion or it would take you forever to rebuild the rift-reducing structure in the radiated remains.

But most of all, any warfare around an ancient construct would mean rift-reduction downtime and more invaders for everyone. I would like to see that tie into a future diplomatic AI at some point. Weigh fear of invaders vs letting neighbour empires get too powerful. Support alien empires to protect their construct sites, peacekeeping actions, lots of possibilities.
 

Offline Iceranger

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2020, 02:50:04 PM »
Ancient constructs are interesting considering how they could (possibly) lead to both conflict and cooperation.

As described now you need 1M pop to use them. That is not a huge investment and if you conquer them they would keep operate under the new ownership with the existing pop. I would like to see some more "cost" to conquering them. Say you have to construct a building to get the rift-reducing effect. One that is easily destroyed by any form of combat. Suddenly conquering them is a much tougher choice and if you do it would definitely have to be by ground invasion or it would take you forever to rebuild the rift-reducing structure in the radiated remains.

But most of all, any warfare around an ancient construct would mean rift-reduction downtime and more invaders for everyone. I would like to see that tie into a future diplomatic AI at some point. Weigh fear of invaders vs letting neighbour empires get too powerful. Support alien empires to protect their construct sites, peacekeeping actions, lots of possibilities.

If I understand the mechanism correctly, if you conquered that alien population, you still have to survey the ancient construct to activate it for your empire? So that can be the down time in between you mentioned there.
Quote
1) Ancient Constructs will be 'dormant' until surveyed by a Xenoarchaeological formation. This will be the same process as for ruins. Ruins and Ancient Constructs on the same system body will be surveyed simultaneously but independently. When an Ancient Construct is surveyed, its research field and bonus will be revealed. It will not add any bonus while dormant.
 

Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2020, 03:53:42 PM »
Is Gene editing gonna make it to 1.10 or are you holding off on it for some reason (changes from VB or something you want to add)?

Probably not. Not actively holding off - more lacking enthusiasm to add :)

Having the population to adapt the environment (within certain fix ranges of course) would be really cool and it will make gene modification obsolete considering you are researching it for ground units now as well.

Offline DFNewb

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2020, 04:21:28 PM »
All I can say is that I am super excited for 1.10 and I always played with invaders on in VB I will probably do the same now, they seem really interesting really looking forward to it. Just hoping they are not super OP or it takes a solid amount of time for them to start really showing up.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 05:13:41 PM by DFNewb »
 

Offline Destragon

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2020, 04:27:05 PM »
Hey, about the "automatic research" feature, are the connected techs getting grouped up into a single tech in the research screen, so that it doesn't display the different troop transport techs as separately available research anymore?

And about the medal importer, isn't having "," be the separator between the items going to be problematic for when a medal has a comma in its description or in its file name? Maybe the different items could be put on separate lines, with the condition numbers still sharing a single line.  Would maybe be better for readability, too?
 

Offline Cosinus

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Re: 1.10.0 Changes Discussion
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2020, 04:54:18 PM »
And about the medal importer, isn't having "," be the separator between the items going to be problematic for when a medal has a comma in its description or in its file name? Maybe the different items could be put on separate lines, with the condition numbers still sharing a single line.  Would maybe be better for readability, too?
regarding the commas, there is a way to escape them in CSV, so that they don't break the formatting.
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4617935/is-there-a-way-to-include-commas-in-csv-columns-without-breaking-the-formatting