Author Topic: Independent Cruiser  (Read 1716 times)

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Offline Black

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2020, 12:04:31 PM »
Oh I misunderstood, I thought that you want turreted primary weapons and that basically means lasers, as messons are IMO useless in C#. If you want to use other weapons as PD then railguns are the way as they have several shot whitch means better chance to hit the missiles.
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2020, 01:32:51 PM »
An ASM launcher or two is handy for hitting enemy shipping as an attack of opportunity. Carrying Nukes for planetary bombardment comes to mind as well, although this is again quite situational.

That being said:

The best use for missiles on an independent warship is in the Anti-Fighter and/or Anti-Missile role, since thinning a volley or two... or a flight or two of enemies can sometimes be the difference between life or death. A Size-3 or Size-6 launcher is good, since you can place Anti-Fighter or Anti-Missile missiles into empty missile stages to create a "Canister" and thus you retain Anti-Ship and Orbital Bombardment options without sacrificing the ability to thin enemy missile/fighter swarms.
 

Offline BasileusMaximos (OP)

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2020, 02:12:14 PM »
Oh I misunderstood, I thought that you want turreted primary weapons and that basically means lasers, as messons are IMO useless in C#. If you want to use other weapons as PD then railguns are the way as they have several shot whitch means better chance to hit the missiles.

Or maybe I have. You can't turret Lances can you...
 

Offline Black

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2020, 04:04:49 PM »
Only Gauss, Lasers and Messons can be turreted. Gauss has too small range and Messons were changed a lot in C# and I believe general consensus on them is that they are useless.

So that leaves lasers and for dual purpose you want fast rate of fire, with better capacitors you can get bigger lasers that will still have 5s rate of fire. I suppose you can do with 10s RoF depending what kind of missiles you are facing.

With capacitor rate of 8 you can get 20cm lasers with 10s RoF and that is quite a nice punch with good range, so you could engage missiles in area defense mode and get more hits on single salvo.
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2020, 06:50:27 PM »
Black:
Quote
Only Gauss, Lasers and Messons can be turreted. Gauss has too small range and Messons were changed a lot in C# and I believe general consensus on them is that they are useless.

So that leaves lasers and for dual purpose you want fast rate of fire, with better capacitors you can get bigger lasers that will still have 5s rate of fire. I suppose you can do with 10s RoF depending what kind of missiles you are facing.

With capacitor rate of 8 you can get 20cm lasers with 10s RoF and that is quite a nice punch with good range, so you could engage missiles in area defense mode and get more hits on single salvo.
lolwut.

 - Mesons have undergone pretty significant testing as I recall, showing them to be surprisingly useful, especially when paired with Railguns. If I remember correctly, it had to do with Mesons making pockmarks under armor layers, thus creating a snowball effect of increasing DPS. The thing which made that useful was that empty armor patches didn't count, and so you could out DPS enemies by mixing the two. Don't quote me on this one, as I only know that testing was carried out and that results seemed favorable while I was actively following it. YYMV.

 - Gauss range too small? Whaaaaaat? I have seen a great many criticisms leveled at Gauss Cannons both Turreted and un-Turreted, but range has never been one them. I'm curious about your claim, would you care to expound a bit? I agree that Lasers make great dual purpose guns, but I'd add that 15~20cm Railguns make fine dual purpose guns at Capacitor 8. Railguns get four shots to the laser's one, and that isn't nothing when you take into account the way Aurora handles random numbers.

BasileusMaximos:
Quote
Or maybe I have. You can't turret Lances can you...
I got some bad news chief... you can't turret Lances.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 07:00:43 PM by xenoscepter »
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2020, 07:25:06 PM »
Black:
Quote
Only Gauss, Lasers and Messons can be turreted. Gauss has too small range and Messons were changed a lot in C# and I believe general consensus on them is that they are useless.

So that leaves lasers and for dual purpose you want fast rate of fire, with better capacitors you can get bigger lasers that will still have 5s rate of fire. I suppose you can do with 10s RoF depending what kind of missiles you are facing.

With capacitor rate of 8 you can get 20cm lasers with 10s RoF and that is quite a nice punch with good range, so you could engage missiles in area defense mode and get more hits on single salvo.
lolwut.

 - Mesons have undergone pretty significant testing as I recall, showing them to be surprisingly useful, especially when paired with Railguns. If I remember correctly, it had to do with Mesons making pockmarks under armor layers, thus creating a snowball effect of increasing DPS. The thing which made that useful was that empty armor patches didn't count, and so you could out DPS enemies by mixing the two. Don't quote me on this one, as I only know that testing was carried out and that results seemed favorable while I was actively following it. YYMV.


Mesons have a few other important effect as well... with railguns especially they help each other in two ways. They way you describe is possibly one, the other is as the railgun strips armour off the meson gun gets more effective as well.

Another effect that Meson have is that you will force the enemy to perhaps add more armour than otherwise they would not as they got very strong shields. You only need a few Meson guns around to provoke that behaviour from the opponent. The same way that Microwaves force the enemy to use more shields. Obviously an NPR could care less but if you have a multi-faction campaign running it certainly will.
 

Offline Ulzgoroth

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2020, 08:10:57 PM »
- Gauss range too small? Whaaaaaat? I have seen a great many criticisms leveled at Gauss Cannons both Turreted and un-Turreted, but range has never been one them. I'm curious about your claim, would you care to expound a bit? I agree that Lasers make great dual purpose guns, but I'd add that 15~20cm Railguns make fine dual purpose guns at Capacitor 8. Railguns get four shots to the laser's one, and that isn't nothing when you take into account the way Aurora handles random numbers.
Nobody criticizes Gauss range because it's such a trivially obvious criticism - their range is pitiful at best. If you want a weapon with range, you don't use Gauss cannons.

This is no problem at all in their primary role as final defensive fire point defense. It's regrettable but unavoidable in the case of ultra-light fighter gunnery. When considering them as primary weapons for heavier fighters, FACs, or full-size ships  you have to face up to the fact that any other weapon except maybe very small plasma carronades will outrange Gauss cannons.

Railguns and Gauss cannons are entirely different weapons. They share the traits of being under missile & kinetic research and of firing multiple shots, but that's about it for their parallels.
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2020, 08:17:04 PM »
@Ulzgoroth

 - Well, yeah... but they are just that, PD weapons. I just didn't understand why that was brought into the discussion... perhaps I should re-read the OP. Just re-read it, and yeah still confused. I never even considered them dual purpose weapons at all... ever. Meh. I dunno, it just seemed like Black was leveling that critique to Gauss as a whole. That's why I asked them to expand on the idea, since I see Gauss only as dedicated PD or Fighter weapons, which makes the range seem somewhat superfluous as a consideration. Now carronades on the other hand... they could use a slight range buff IMO, a slight one...
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2020, 09:24:35 PM »
Based on this: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=10447.0

Independent Class:
Code: [Select]
Independent class Cruiser      12,500 tons       316 Crew       1,659.2 BP       TCS 250    TH 500    EM 510
4000 km/s      Armour 3-47       Shields 17-283       HTK 65      Sensors 25/25/0/0      DCR 12      PPV 23.2
Maint Life 5.62 Years     MSP 2,897    AFR 100%    IFR 1.4%    1YR 155    5YR 2,322    Max Repair 300.00000 MSP
Captain    Control Rating 3   BRG   AUX   ENG   
Intended Deployment Time: 5 months    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive  EP500.00 (2)    Power 1000.0    Fuel Use 17.92%    Signature 250.000    Explosion 8%
Fuel Capacity 650,000 Litres    Range 52.2 billion km (151 days at full power)
Gamma S17 / R283 Shields (1)     Recharge Time 283 seconds (0.1 per second)

15.0cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser (2)    Range 180,000km     TS: 4,000 km/s     Power 6-3     RM 30,000 km    ROF 10       
Single 10cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x1)    Range 90,000km     TS: 8000 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
10cm Railgun V30/C3 (2x4)    Range 30,000km     TS: 4,000 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R96-TS8000 (1)     Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 8,000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
Beam Fire Control R192-TS4000 (1)     Max Range: 192,000 km   TS: 4,000 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Beam Fire Control R64-TS4000 (1)     Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 4,000 km/s     84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor R18 (1)     Total Power Output 18    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor AS12-R1 (1)     GPS 100     Range 12.6m km    MCR 1.1m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH5-25 (1)     Sensitivity 25     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  39.5m km
EM Sensor EM5-25 (1)     Sensitivity 25     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  39.5m km
ELINT Module (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  17.7m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
*Beam weapon chances to hit are based on targets moving at 4,000 km/s at a range of 10,000 km
Techs Used:
Off-Topic: show

 - Damage Control
 - Composite Armor
 - Gamma Shields
 - Shield Recharge Rate 2
 - Thermal Reduction 50%
 - Ion Engine Technology
 - Minimum Engine Size 60
 - Fuel Consumption 0.7
 - Capacitor 3
 - 15cm Laser
 - Near-Ultraviolet Lasers
 - 10cm Railgun
 - Railgun Velocity 30,000km
 - Turret Gear Ratio 4,000km/s
 - Beam Fire Control Range 64,000km
 - Beam Fire Control Tracking Speed 4,000 km/s
 - ELINT Module Strength 5
 - Auxiliary Bridge
 - Main Engineering

 - Designed off an early cruiser design that I made for VB6, this cruiser is an example of what I might use for independent actions. Unfortunately, this design lacks a Jump Drive and is thus reliant on a Jump Tender or Stabilized Jump Points to get it to the Area of Operations. The three B-FCS allow it's weapons groups to operate independently of each, maximizing the number of threats that an Independent-Class can engage simultaneously. The sensors package is top-notch, but low tech while the ELINT further assists it in reprising the reconnaissance role. The ship is capable of engaging in Ship-to-Ship beam combat, Area Defense and Final Fire defense all at the same time. Light armor and modest shields mean that this ship cannot weather sustained fire.

 - A long deployment time of 5 months coupled to a generous MSP supply is further extended by a Main Engineering and 12 Engineering Spaces. 1,160 Tons are dedicated to the weapons themselves, with a further 1,500 tons dedicated to sensors and ELINT. 5,000 tons is dedicated to the engines, almost half of the ship's overall mass. Of note is the engines with their 50% thermal reduction; in C# this is much more relevant than it was in VB6 as when you power down your engines to a full stop you no longer produce zero thermal signature, but rather the engine's minimum... in this case 250.

 - It has room for alterations and improvements for sure, but it's a solid design for the kinds of things a ship could hope to do when deployed all alone. Smaller sensors, a Marine complement, a Cargo Shuttle Bay are all things which could add to it. This design was built off of the design linked above, and I tried to stick to it as much as possible. :)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 09:26:57 PM by xenoscepter »
 

Offline Ulzgoroth

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2020, 10:01:28 PM »
@Ulzgoroth

 - Well, yeah... but they are just that, PD weapons. I just didn't understand why that was brought into the discussion... perhaps I should re-read the OP. Just re-read it, and yeah still confused. I never even considered them dual purpose weapons at all... ever. Meh. I dunno, it just seemed like Black was leveling that critique to Gauss as a whole. That's why I asked them to expand on the idea, since I see Gauss only as dedicated PD or Fighter weapons, which makes the range seem somewhat superfluous as a consideration. Now carronades on the other hand... they could use a slight range buff IMO, a slight one...
The post you quoted was the latest in a sequence discussing turreted heavy/primary weapons for the OP's 'cruiser'. Gauss got mention only because it's one of only three weapon types that can be turreted...
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2020, 10:02:03 PM »
Ah, I missed that bit. Thanks for clearing that up. :)
 

Offline L0ckAndL0ad

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2020, 11:46:18 PM »
About turrets: I've only used them so far for PD weapons and I always go for 25% accuracy guns mounted on a quad turret. This provides the best HS to firepower ratio from what I understand. Now, if we are talking capital ships they are obviously not going to be fast enough to track smaller targets with their beams, so they would benefit from main beam-weapon turrets.

How would you suggest to build them? Is it best the do the same as with PD weapons and have quad 25% accuracy beams?
For main battery laser turrets I'd go with 3x or 4x 15/20 cm twin or triple turrets,  armored slightly higher than the ship's hull, and 100% accuracy. That's mostly to mirror RL WW2 cruiser designs, but I'm also basing this on practical limitations.

Armored turrets provide much better survivability for the ship. They have high chance to be hit because they're big, and armor makes them less likely to be destroyed. Calibre needs to be high enough to do reasonable damage, but low enough to still be economically suitable. Quad guns may be too much in terms of MSP costs (misfire/maintenance failure repair cost), but twins are less optimal in terms of crew/weight/RP/material costs. So triple may be the sweet spot for me. 100% accuracy is needed because this is a main battery and it needs to be as accurate as possible, otherwise more hits would result in higher misfire/maint failure rate.

For Gauss PD, yeah, 50% accuracy and 0 or lvl 1 armor is normal. 2-3 twin turrets are fine.

But then again, I would not send such a ship going completely solo, probably. Not at first, at least. 2-3 cruisers are much better option, and they then can split up in the enemy territory as needed to cover more ground.

Speed and sensors should be great also. And jump/scout parasites. Situational awareness for such a role is paramount.
 

Offline Black

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2020, 05:20:19 AM »
It seems there was a bit of a discussion about my opinions for main or primary turreted weapon that can serve as dual purpose weapon system of independently operated cu riser. This was original question:

Quote
...so they would benefit from main beam-weapon turrets. How would you suggest to build them?

I believe that Gauss question was answered - they are PD weapons (and I use them extensively myself as such), but IMO unsuitable as primary weapons on capital ship, basically all other weapons have better range.

Railguns can definitely be used as dual purpose weapons (again I used them in such way myself) and I did mention them in one of my posts. But they cannot be turreted. Original question was for turreted main weapon.

As for the messons I was vaguely remembering this topic: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=11186.0 so I made my opinion about messons based on that and some previous discussions when Steve initially decided to change messons.

From what I see, they could be useful as support weapons for railguns. But as I stated, we were discussing primary weapon system. They also have worse range than same tech level lasers. Steve admitted that they are underpowered in human vs human environment, which may not be concern for lot of us that do not play against human opponents, but it is still a factor.

I stand by my opinion that they are definitely much less usefull than in VB6 and not suitable as primary weapon system.
 

Offline liveware

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2020, 06:33:43 PM »
About turrets: I've only used them so far for PD weapons and I always go for 25% accuracy guns mounted on a quad turret. This provides the best HS to firepower ratio from what I understand. Now, if we are talking capital ships they are obviously not going to be fast enough to track smaller targets with their beams, so they would benefit from main beam-weapon turrets.

How would you suggest to build them? Is it best the do the same as with PD weapons and have quad 25% accuracy beams?
For main battery laser turrets I'd go with 3x or 4x 15/20 cm twin or triple turrets,  armored slightly higher than the ship's hull, and 100% accuracy. That's mostly to mirror RL WW2 cruiser designs, but I'm also basing this on practical limitations.

Armored turrets provide much better survivability for the ship. They have high chance to be hit because they're big, and armor makes them less likely to be destroyed. Calibre needs to be high enough to do reasonable damage, but low enough to still be economically suitable. Quad guns may be too much in terms of MSP costs (misfire/maintenance failure repair cost), but twins are less optimal in terms of crew/weight/RP/material costs. So triple may be the sweet spot for me. 100% accuracy is needed because this is a main battery and it needs to be as accurate as possible, otherwise more hits would result in higher misfire/maint failure rate.

For Gauss PD, yeah, 50% accuracy and 0 or lvl 1 armor is normal. 2-3 twin turrets are fine.

But then again, I would not send such a ship going completely solo, probably. Not at first, at least. 2-3 cruisers are much better option, and they then can split up in the enemy territory as needed to cover more ground.

Speed and sensors should be great also. And jump/scout parasites. Situational awareness for such a role is paramount.

I also use 100% accuracy for my big gun triple turrets on cruisers and other large ships. This is based somewhat on the balance of turret size/firepower/crew size considerations and also because during my WWII research I found that US battleships of that era had extremely accurate, long range gun fire controls that proved decisive in several engagements in the Pacific.
Open the pod-bay doors HAL...
 

 

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