Author Topic: Boarding vs Shields  (Read 13638 times)

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Offline Foxxonius Augustus

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2021, 08:53:47 AM »
Follow up I guess.

"Shields" in any sci-fi are fully and firmly on the fiction side, they are plot based shorthand for delaying consequences and have exactly the same basis in science as demonic summoning.

Next, a bit of a rundown.

Star Trek shields don't stop boarding craft, just teleportation. Just because they prefer to teleport doesn't mean boarding shuttles don't work.
Star Gate shields don't stop boarding craft and honestly I can't remember if they stop teleportation or not but since aurora boarding doesn't work that way... *shrug*
Star Wars shields, like all the other tech in that IP are super inconsistent at best and more often than is reasonable, outright contradictory. *cough* hyperspace *cough*
WH40k shields don't stop boarding craft, just teleportation.

Not only do shields not stop boarding in these works but they don't even hinder it. In some cases boarding is seen as a way of bypassing them when necessary.

And because someone will inevitably feel the need to ask.

How do I know that auroras boarding combat is not teleportation based?
1. The ships involved need to be co-located exactly.  Teleportation would almost by definition require separation.
2. Relative speed is a factor. Teleportation without the ability to also control your reference frame is worthless.
2a. No, Star Trek teleportation doesn't care about relative speed ether. Ships moving at impulse have always been able to teleport between them. Warp speed would be analogous to transiting a jump point.

Now all of that is just RP stuff which is subjective. I guess I was hoping that making my disbelief harder to suspend would be a more compelling argument than it turned out to be.

How about this one. Game balance.

Is boarding combat so brokenly powerful that it overwhelms that meta? No.
Is a boarding only doctrine viable? With enough min maxing and cheese, maybe? Probably not though.
Are you at a significant disadvantage if you don't use boarding combat at all? No, not really.
Is boarding impossible to counter? More speed, more guns, more ships, smaller ships, bigger ships (yes, both are counters in their own way.) embarked marines, counter boarding ships, Mesons to disable engi..... etc.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Lastly, if none of that is enough of a reason, here is one just for Steve.

False bug reports.

Boarding craft being able to bypass shields is a big enough trope in sci-fi, not to mention that it is the way they work now, that if they are changed even just to hinder boarding actions, some will see it as a bug and report it. Examples might include:

-10kms faster but boarding still fails?/? PlZ hALp!
-I ran the numbers 3 times and I am losing more marines than I should be. I think something broke the combat formula.
-I immobilized an enemy ship so I sent in my boarding craft from a few systems over but when they got there the game bugged out and all my boarding troops just died before combat even started.
-Just came back to aurora after a break so I used some ship designs from my last play through that worked well while I get back into the swing of things but my boarding craft don't seem to work anymore. All I can think of is that the game thinks my ship is much slower than it is. Maybe the calculation got messed up somehow... maybe some data got overflowed...


Sorry this turned into such a ramble/rant. It really wasn't meant to be. I guess I just don't understand why you would want to change it in the first place.
 
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Offline ArcWolf

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2021, 10:54:17 AM »
...in RotJ an A-Wing, after getting shot, flies through the energy shield of a Star Destroyer and destroys the bridge.
Officer specifically stated that they "lost the bridge deflector shields" - after one shield dome (of 2) on the Super Star Destroyer was destroyed.
Youtube video link:


But other than that... yes.

Thank you for the correction, it's been a few years since i watched the movie.
 
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Offline Migi

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2021, 12:32:50 PM »
Honestly, I want boarding to be stronger, not weaker.

I would buy the argument that the current speed differential required to guarantee boarding is too punishing, if it were smaller boarding craft could be designed with more of a focus on armour.
Personally I'd like 50T troop cargo bays so that smaller ships can have garrisons, although that makes fighter sized boarding craft much easier to make and I suspect Steve doesn't want that.


False bug reports.

I don't buy that this would be any more of an issue than any other change.
For everyone's convenience, maybe Steve could make the boarding calculation appear in the log so that people have a chance to see what happened.
 

Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2021, 03:53:36 PM »
Honestly, I want boarding to be stronger, not weaker.

I would buy the argument that the current speed differential required to guarantee boarding is too punishing


Perhaps we could remove the Speed factor in favour of a shield one?

I mean in the end to catch a ship you still need to be faster...
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 03:55:42 PM by froggiest1982 »
 

Offline ArcWolf

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2021, 03:59:39 PM »
Honestly, I want boarding to be stronger, not weaker.

I would buy the argument that the current speed differential required to guarantee boarding is too punishing


Perhaps we could remove the Speed factor in favour of a shield one?

I mean in the end to catch a ship you still need to be faster...

True, I don't know about anyone else, but i only ever board ships that have been disabled, so their speed is always 0 (well technically 1 Km/s).
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2021, 04:12:52 PM »
 --- We should really be able to use Tractor Beams to "latch" on for a boarding attempt. As in, your ship flies in, catches up, tractors it, and for the purposes of targeting your boarding ship the ship being boarded treats it as moving at 0 km/s... to model them being "in sync" Then you only need a ship fast enough to catch your prey and tough enough to withstand the fire as you close to board.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2021, 09:21:21 PM »
--- We should really be able to use Tractor Beams to "latch" on for a boarding attempt. As in, your ship flies in, catches up, tractors it, and for the purposes of targeting your boarding ship the ship being boarded treats it as moving at 0 km/s... to model them being "in sync" Then you only need a ship fast enough to catch your prey and tough enough to withstand the fire as you close to board.

I think using the tractor beam is a great idea because it allows shields to play a role in boarding without messing with the boarding combat.

You can make it so that active shields prevent a ship from latching on a tractor beam whereas once latched on, the shield has a %chance based on current strength to disengage the tractor beam.

You could make it so that when two ships are latched on like this, that you can move back the marines without having to wait the entire troop loading time which would be significant for me because it takes a whole hour to retrieve my marines after successful boarding since my military boarding ships don't waste space for a cargo shuttle bay.

You could also make it so that when the boarding ship is latched on, retreating from combat becomes an option for the marines in question, or if there are marines on the defending ship, they could attempt a counter-boarding.
 
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Offline Foxxonius Augustus

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2021, 02:01:52 AM »
False bug reports.
I don't buy that this would be any more of an issue than any other change.

If I had not seen this thread and thought that shields were somehow interfering with boarding combat I would 100% have reported it as a bug because why on earth would they.
 

Offline Migi

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2021, 03:17:28 AM »
False bug reports.
I don't buy that this would be any more of an issue than any other change.

If I had not seen this thread and thought that shields were somehow interfering with boarding combat I would 100% have reported it as a bug because why on earth would they.

If you're going to
1) not look through the changes list before playing
2) not look through the changes post after finding something odd
3) take the time to write up a bug report
then frankly there is nothing stopping you from writing a bug report about every single feature, new or old, in the game.

Your first bug report would have been "all the planet orbits are weird".
 
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Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2021, 04:51:25 AM »
False bug reports.
I don't buy that this would be any more of an issue than any other change.
So if Steve for some reason were to make say a change where a certain tech level of lasers did 0 damage or something else that make no sense at all, then you don't think that change would get any more false bug reports than a feature or change that correlates 100% to what everyone expects and to how these stuff works in all other Sci Fi universes and games?

To me it's pretty basic logic that the more sense a feature make the less risk of false bug reports because everyone intuitivly expects that it's working as intended. This is a big part of the draw for me to Aurora 4x as a game to begin with. Since so much of the game just "make sense" it makes the experience feel alot more immersive and real, not to mention it's much easier to learn when most times you think "wouldn't it be great if I could..." you can find a button or features that does just what your looking for, roughly where you go looking for it.
 

Offline Foxxonius Augustus

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2021, 04:55:18 AM »
False bug reports.
I don't buy that this would be any more of an issue than any other change.

If I had not seen this thread and thought that shields were somehow interfering with boarding combat I would 100% have reported it as a bug because why on earth would they.

If you're going to
1) not look through the changes list before playing
2) not look through the changes post after finding something odd
3) take the time to write up a bug report
then frankly there is nothing stopping you from writing a bug report about every single feature, new or old, in the game.

Your first bug report would have been "all the planet orbits are weird".

It sure took you a lot of words to call me stupid. If you want to say it then say it but don't invent a scenario and say that it is what I would do.

If it is possible for Steve to miss the fact that he forgot to code this thing in the first place then I think it is more than reasonable that someone who reads the change log might accidentally miss it and think "No way is this intentional" and write it up.

Look, opinions were asked for and I gave mine. Since that seems to be unpopular I will refrain in the future.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2021, 05:54:27 AM »
Warning. There are spoilers in this post regarding the Swarm.

Thanks for the lively debate on this subject. It has helped me think through the implications. What struck me most was the observation that most boarding takes place against either damaged warships or commercial vessels due to the need for a high speed differential. The latter can't mount shields and the former is likely to have only minimal shields. The exceptions would be either a situation where a warship received engine damage and was subsequently able to recharge its remaining shields before undergoing a boarding assault, which is probably a rare case, and an assault by the Swarm which doesn't really care about casualties on the boarding attempt.

While I liked the suggestion of shield strength acting as a negative modifier to the boarding chance, it adds complexity that will generally not apply to any significant degree given the above, except in the case of the AI Swarm and I don't want to add something that is more likely to penalise the AI than the player.

Therefore, for now at least, I am going to leave the situation as is stands, with shields not having an impact on boarding.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2021, 08:04:31 AM by Steve Walmsley »
 
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Offline Black

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2021, 06:41:51 AM »
One of the reasons why I wanted shields to prevent or reduce the chance of successful boarding is that we are not able to help our ships after enemy marines land. Would it be possible to add counterboarding?
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2021, 07:23:46 AM »
Isn't that already in? I thought someone had tested it.
 

Offline KriegsMeister

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2021, 10:33:40 AM »
Quote from: xenoscepter link=topic=12811. msg156565#msg156565 date=1635973972
--- We should really be able to use Tractor Beams to "latch" on for a boarding attempt.  As in, your ship flies in, catches up, tractors it, and for the purposes of targeting your boarding ship the ship being boarded treats it as moving at 0 km/s. . .  to model them being "in sync" Then you only need a ship fast enough to catch your prey and tough enough to withstand the fire as you close to board.

Could also make it viable for large ships to capture and board small ships like the opening scene of a New Hope, with the star destroyer tractoring the Corellian Corvette into its hanger.