Point defence

[SteveAlt]

My own survey squad was ambushed by a single precurser DD of 5.000t that was armed with 20cm UV-lasers and my desron made short work of it with missiles from outside his laser range. That being said, it took about 40 strength 3 missile hits (note: hits, not missiles, I used about 120 missiles all in all) to take the ship out and intel told me he had armor 1, so his shields had to be quite strong (the first wave of 25 hits didn´t even slow the bugger down

Intel will only reveal how much armour was penetrated by one hit. As the size 3 missiles have a flat pattern that wipes away 3 armour boxes from the same layer, intel will always report them as penetrating 1 level of armour. So it's possible the Precursor had better armour.

Are the penetration patterns pictured anywhere in the game?  I know that a strength 13 warhead has 7 points absorbed in the 1st layer of armor, but letting precursors blow up your ships is a rather expensive way of determining this

Steve

[Erik L]

Yes, you can salvage a wreck and you might get some tech-knowledge out of it.

Hint: Put a waypoint in the system-map-view on the wreck. I didn´t and was never able to find the wreck again, after I researched salvaging tech    )

There should be on the F12 orders screen a toggle for wrecks. This will allow you to use them as destinations for fleets.

Q for Steve, do the NPRs salvage wrecks?

[SteveAlt]

Yes, you can salvage a wreck and you might get some tech-knowledge out of it.

Hint: Put a waypoint in the system-map-view on the wreck. I didn´t and was never able to find the wreck again, after I researched salvaging tech    )

There should be on the F12 orders screen a toggle for wrecks. This will allow you to use them as destinations for fleets.

Q for Steve, do the NPRs salvage wrecks?

Not at the moment, although I will add it at some point. With regard to wrecks, you have to detect them on active sensors before you can use them as a destination

Steve

[Starkiller (OP)]

Heh. I'm afraid I got cocky. Found more Precursors in the system next to Wolf 424, fortunately, before they found me. Camped half of Home Fleet on the
warp point, then send Revenge and Vengeance to check it out, and left the Hun equivalent sitting on the WP with long range passives only. Detected 3
ships closing in at the same speed as the one in Wolf 424, so thinking it was the same type of ship, I closed, intending the use Vengeance to pound them
with missle, damaging them enough for Revenge to get close and blow them away with lasers. Know what they say about the best laid plans of mice and men?



Greywolf

[Beersatron]

I am using Honorverse nomenclature (Manticore) and created an 8th Fleet containing:

5x 9000 Ton Light Cruisers with 5 armour and 5 size 8/warhead 8 missile launchers each. Ship speed 4000km/s, missile speed 8000km/s.
4x 7500 Ton Escort Cruisers with 5 armour and 16 size 1/warhead 1 missile launchers each. Ship speed 4000km/s, missile speed 16000km/s.

I am not at home, so can't copy in the exact class designs.

Jumped in on and moved away in opposite direction to the fuzzy contacts sitting on the WP. Lost 1 CL within 20 seconds to lasers and massed salvos of strength 7 missiles and took damage to another CL. My active sensors finally stabilized and I detected one close in lazer ship and 3 missile ships moving away from me. The lazer ship got spanked, much-joy! So I kept on running to give my CLEs time multi salvo the incloming missiles.

Problems:

1. Enemy ships were doing 7000km/s so my ship killer missiles only had an overtake of 1000km/s and they were a good bit away by the time I could target them.

2. They had salvos of 13 missiles each, strength 7 missiles that did 23000km/s.

Suffice to say, my CLE had a tough job and interception rates were 17% I think, possibly even less actually.

I think the fight lasted about 3 minutes of 5 second increments, all the CLs were destroyed one by one - they lasted longer than I thought they would though. And then I lost two of the CLEs. My anti missiles ran dry and the same time as their ship killers ran try! I headed back to the WP and scooped the lifepods, but the problem is that I am now stuck in the system with no way to rearm. I have a jump capable gravsurvey ship that has jump drive of 8000 tons but the ship itself is only 6000 tons so it wont work with the 7500 ton CLEs.

The 3 enemy missile ships are sitting a couple of million KM off the WP. Even if I had missiles they can outrun my CLEs before they get into firing range.

How does NPR/Precursor missile resupply work? Will they get auto-reload by magics?!

[SteveAlt]

How does NPR/Precursor missile resupply work? Will they get auto-reload by magics?!

NPRs build their own missiles and have to visit the colony with the ordnance factories to resupply. They will head for home if they need more missiles. I meant to give Precursors some ammo dumps on asteroids, etc but I think I forgot in v4.0 so they will run out eventually.

Steve

[Beersatron]

How does NPR/Precursor missile resupply work? Will they get auto-reload by magics?!

NPRs build their own missiles and have to visit the colony with the ordnance factories to resupply. They will head for home if they need more missiles. I meant to give Precursors some ammo dumps on asteroids, etc but I think I forgot in v4.0 so they will run out eventually.

Steve

I crashed researched-built a small Collier and resupplied my two surviving CLEs with AMMs. Tried chasing the Enemy ships down but they just ran away once I entered their ASS range.

So, I brought in some Geo and Grav survey ships and went to work. I have thus far found two contacts on moons, one a Thermal 5 and the other a Thermal 10. Destroyed them using the CLEs. The thing is, I still get the event reports stating that there is an alien colony in the system but I have searched every cluster of planets and moons with 40km range ASS and the Geo ship so I am a bit lost.

Thermal 5 and 10 do not seem that large - I am guessing that they are Precursor sensor bases or similar?

Either I am looking at the wrong window or else there really are no ruins in the system. Ruins are displayed on the System Map under 'Display 2' tab, right?

[SteveAlt]

Thermal 5 and 10 do not seem that large - I am guessing that they are Precursor sensor bases or similar?

Either I am looking at the wrong window or else there really are no ruins in the system. Ruins are displayed on the System Map under 'Display 2' tab, right?

Yes they are, but you have to detect them with geosurvey sensors. The small thermal contacts will be precursor sensor bases

Steve

[sloanjh]

Thermal 5 and 10 do not seem that large - I am guessing that they are Precursor sensor bases or similar?

Either I am looking at the wrong window or else there really are no ruins in the system. Ruins are displayed on the System Map under 'Display 2' tab, right?

Yes they are, but you have to detect them with geosurvey sensors. The small thermal contacts will be precursor sensor bases

Steve

Should I bother trying to land troops on a planet with a sensor base?  Don't tell me if the Precursors will react - I want to be surprised  Instead, I'm asking if I can capture the bases through the ground combat mechanisms if I drop troops in.  Also, is there a way to shoot at them?  I tried detecting them with active sensors and got nothing - I don't have any warships in the system so I don't know if I can lock them up as populations...

Thanks,
John

[Cassaralla]

Sensor bases?  Well that explains why my geosurvey scouts find nothing on the two moons I have small thermal contacts on. . . . . oh well, time to call up a bombardment cruiser and finish off the pesky Precursor for good.

[Starkiller (OP)]

Well, I won my fight against the six precursor vessels. I got pounded with long range salvos, while their ECM kept my long range missles to
half their range. I was testing four difference battlecruiser designs to see how they functioned in combat. The result actually surprised me.
All four had point defense suites, if they hadn't, the fleet would have been destroyed before getting into missle range.

The first design is a modified Revenge class BC. In the battle, her PD lasers were of limited use due to a tracking speed much too low
to effectively track Precursor missles. The 20cm lasers never got into range, though they were of some VERY limited use in PD mode.

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Revenge class Battlecruiser    12000 tons     1256 Crew     4364 BP      TCS 240  TH 611.8  EM 450
7283 km/s     Armour 3-46     Shields 15-300     Sensors 11/11/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 64
Annual Failure Rate: 1152%    IFR: 16%    Maintenance Capacity 227 MSP    Max Repair 672 MSP

Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (19)    Power 92    Efficiency 0.65    Signature 32.2    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 46.2 billion km   (73 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (6)   Total Fuel Cost  75 Litres per day

Twin 10cm C3 Ultraviolet Laser Mk2 Turret (4x2)    Range 120,000km     TS: 12500 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 4    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Single 20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1)    Range 160,000km     TS: 12500 km/s     Power 10-5     RM 4    ROF 10        10 10 10 10 8 6 5 5 4 4
Fire Control S04 80-12500 H50 (5)    Max Range: 160,000 km   TS: 12500 km/s     94 88 81 75 69 62 56 50 44 38
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-0 (3)     Total Power Output 33.3    Armour 0    Exp 4%

Active Search Sensor S56-R70 (50%)Mk2 (1)     GPS 3920     Range 39.2m km    Resolution 70
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1)     GPS 448     Range 4.5m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH1-11 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  11m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-11 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  11m km


Next up is the Vendetta class BC, with both PD missles and size 4 anti-ship missles. Her anti-ship missle batteries did well, though the slow firing
rate couldn't match up to the Precursor ships, which had size 5, strength 12 missles with a 5 second ROF. (OUCHIE!) Also, her point defense was too
light to be very effective, and as such, she and her sisters got pounded hard.

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Vendetta class Battlecruiser    12000 tons     1197 Crew     3706.88 BP      TCS 240  TH 644  EM 450
7666 km/s     Armour 1-46     Shields 15-300     Sensors 88/88/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 36
Annual Failure Rate: 1152%    IFR: 16%    Maintenance Capacity 193 MSP    Max Repair 672 MSP
Magazine 704    

Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (20)    Power 92    Efficiency 0.65    Signature 32.2    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 46.1 billion km   (69 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (6)   Total Fuel Cost  75 Litres per day

Size 1 Missile Launcher (4)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Size 4 Missile Launcher Mk2 (8)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 20
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (1)     Range 4.2m km    Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC28-R105 (50%)mk2 (1)     Range 88.2m km    Resolution 105
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (100)  Speed: 33,300 km/s   End: 2.2m    Range: 4.3m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Size 4 Anti-ship Missile mk3 (151)  Speed: 23,200 km/s   End: 61.4m    Range: 85.5m km   WH: 4    Size: 4    TH: 178 / 106 / 53

Active Search Sensor S84-R105 (50%)mk2 (1)     GPS 8820     Range 88.2m km    Resolution 105
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1)     GPS 448     Range 4.5m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH8-88 (50%)mk2 (1)     Sensitivity 88     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  88m km
EM Detection Sensor EM8-88 (50%)mk2 (1)     Sensitivity 88     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  88m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

Next up is the Vengeance class BC. Size 5 with long range, but the same limited warhead as Vendetta's size 4s. Missle batteries didn't do too badly, but.
too light, too few, and too long a ROF to be effective, though the PD suite fared better.

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Vengeance class Battlecruiser    12000 tons     1197 Crew     3706.88 BP      TCS 240  TH 644  EM 450
7666 km/s     Armour 1-46     Shields 15-300     Sensors 88/88/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 36
Annual Failure Rate: 1152%    IFR: 16%    Maintenance Capacity 193 MSP    Max Repair 672 MSP
Magazine 704    

Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (20)    Power 92    Efficiency 0.65    Signature 32.2    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 46.1 billion km   (69 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (6)   Total Fuel Cost  75 Litres per day

Size 5 Missile Launcher mk2 (6)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 25
Size 1 Missile Launcher (6)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC28-R105 (50%)mk2 (1)     Range 88.2m km    Resolution 105
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (1)     Range 4.2m km    Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (158)  Speed: 33,300 km/s   End: 2.2m    Range: 4.3m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Size 5 Anti-ship Missile (112)  Speed: 28,200 km/s   End: 51.1m    Range: 86.5m km   WH: 4    Size: 5    TH: 188 / 112 / 56

Active Search Sensor S84-R105 (50%)mk2 (1)     GPS 8820     Range 88.2m km    Resolution 105
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1)     GPS 448     Range 4.5m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH8-88 (50%)mk2 (1)     Sensitivity 88     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  88m km
EM Detection Sensor EM8-88 (50%)mk2 (1)     Sensitivity 88     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  88m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

It was the Vilknarma class BC that surprised me with it's effectiveness. Good sized PD suite and 14 light anti-ship batteries. She put up a withering
anti-missle fire, and her 14 size 2 anti-ship batteries with a 10 second ROF, put up a much denser missle storm, and most struck their targets.
Individually nothing, but as one 14 missle salvo after another....

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Vilknarma class Battlecruiser    12000 tons     1197 Crew     3706.88 BP      TCS 240  TH 644  EM 450
7666 km/s     Armour 1-46     Shields 15-300     Sensors 88/88/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 36
Annual Failure Rate: 1152%    IFR: 16%    Maintenance Capacity 193 MSP    Max Repair 672 MSP
Magazine 704    

Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (20)    Power 92    Efficiency 0.65    Signature 32.2    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 46.1 billion km   (69 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (6)   Total Fuel Cost  75 Litres per day

Size 1 Missile Launcher (8)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Size 2 Missile Launcher Mk2 (14)    Missile Size 2    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (1)     Range 4.2m km    Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC28-R105 (50%)mk2 (1)     Range 88.2m km    Resolution 105
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (100)  Speed: 33,300 km/s   End: 2.2m    Range: 4.3m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Size 2 Anti-ship Missile mk2 (302)  Speed: 22,400 km/s   End: 67m    Range: 90m km   WH: 2    Size: 2    TH: 149 / 89 / 44

Active Search Sensor S84-R105 (50%)mk2 (1)     GPS 8820     Range 88.2m km    Resolution 105
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1)     GPS 448     Range 4.5m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH8-88 (50%)mk2 (1)     Sensitivity 88     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  88m km
EM Detection Sensor EM8-88 (50%)mk2 (1)     Sensitivity 88     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  88m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This was fun for sure, and we succeeded in capturing the system. There is a thermal 10 base on the first planet. Is it possible to
capture it? BTW, Steve, they have been leaving lifepods when destroyed. (Now where did I put those bamboo strips?)

Eric

[Beersatron]

Could you squeeze in another Size 1 missile fire control on the Vilknarma? That way you could set it up so that they control 4 launchers each and then have the PD set to 4vs1?

Which actually leads me on to my own question for Steve: when PD is set to 4vs1 does that mean that 4 PD missiles will try to target 1 incoming ship killer missile OR that 4 PD missiles will attack 1 salvo or ship killer missiles?

OR, none of the above  

[Starkiller (OP)]

Well, for the battle, her PD launchers were set to area defence. From the look of it, they simply fired at any salvo of ship killers that entered
their range. They often managed to take out as much as half the shipkillers with the first two salvos. Of the four BC classes in the battle, only
the Vilknarma BCs came through without a scratch. Though to be honest, I don't know if they were targeted or not, but even if they weren't, it's
thanks to their PD missles that any of the others survived. When the Precursor shipkillers came in, each salvo was in 3 groups of 13 missles, size
5, warhead strength 12. By the time they reach the ships, PD had knocked out about 2/3 to 3/4 of them, the Revenge BCs lasers got from 1-4 more.
Then they hit. If my initial plan had worked, they would never have hit me as often as they did, but I made a REAL boner of a mistake.

I had a scout that snuck in and orbited one of the planets, using just the passives, I kept track of them. I sent the fleet through the warp point REAL
slow, intending to sneak up on them, get within missle range, light up the actives and FIRE. Alas, I had a conditional order set that if contact detected,
turn actives on!
I won, but I could have won even better if I had remembered that bloody conditional. I set it that way for warp point defense. Heh. Oh well. ^_-

Greywolf

[Charlie Beeler]

Some things I've found to be successful for missile defenses.  

You only need 1pt of damage to kill a missile with a missile.

Mount size 1 launchers in groups of 5 with a supporting PD missile fire control.  Reason being that 5 is the max assignment vs salvos.

For counter-missiles speed is almost always more important than range.  Followed closely by agility.  Balance both for optimal intercept chance.

You never seem to have enough magazine space for counter missiles.  


Beams are almost always best set for final defense vs area defense.  Optimize beam fire control for 100% at 10k km since this is the best range break your going to have.

Beams for PD should always be turret mounted with a speed matching your best fire control speed.

Beam fire control for PD should always be 4x size for speed, your going to incounter missiles that are faster than you can track with standard size fire control.

Actives for detecting incoming missiles should be large enough to see them at least 500k km, farther is better.  Research "max tracking time bonus vs missiles" under racial charteristics.

The more beams you add to the turret mount the better.  

As long as missile armor is not being used by your opfor use the smallest beam for PD.  With the correct capacitor, and supporting powerplant(s), you can easily have PD suites with 5 sec cycles for a minimal mass investment.

[Brian Neumann]

Some things I've found to be successful for missile defenses.  

You only need 1pt of damage to kill a missile with a missile.

This has changed with 4.0b.  missile vs missile now need to take in to account the armor of the attacking missile.  If your enemy armors thier missile even a little bit this will have a major impact on your interceptions chance of success. (1 point of armor will meen that a successfull intercept now requires twice as many missiles to succeed.)

Mount size 1 launchers in groups of 5 with a supporting PD missile fire control.  Reason being that 5 is the max assignment vs salvos.

For counter-missiles speed is almost always more important than range.  Followed closely by agility.  Balance both for optimal intercept chance.

You never seem to have enough magazine space for counter missiles.  

Agree with everything here.  I usually use about .01 space points for the missiles fuel.

Beams are almost always best set for final defense vs area defense.  Optimize beam fire control for 100% at 10k km since this is the best range break your going to have.

Beams for PD should always be turret mounted with a speed matching your best fire control speed.

Beam fire control for PD should always be 4x size for speed, your going to incounter missiles that are faster than you can track with standard size fire control.

Actives for detecting incoming missiles should be large enough to see them at least 500k km, farther is better.  Research "max tracking time bonus vs missiles" under racial charteristics.

The more beams you add to the turret mount the better.  

As long as missile armor is not being used by your opfor use the smallest beam for PD.  With the correct capacitor, and supporting powerplant(s), you can easily have PD suites with 5 sec cycles for a minimal mass investment.

I use a couple of different ideas for my point defense.  I prefer to use the largest beam weapon that has a 5 second cycle, up to 15cm.  This is because the extra space required is fairly small (3 vs 4 hs) and the extra weapons then become a very handy secondary battery vs enemy ships.  This is particularily true if I am using mesons for my beam pd as any enemy ship which gets into range is in trouble.  The main drawback on this is you have less total pd to work with.
Early on railguns actually work better than lasers, or mesons for pd even though they do not get to be turret mounted.  A 10cm railgun is very short ranged but has the same overall percentage of hits as a turret mounted laser or meson.  It can get even better chance if the ship mounting it is faster than the base fire control speed that has been reasearched.  The other reason that railguns are better early on is that they only have 2 tracks of reasearch to stay current while the lasers and mesons also require the turret tracking speed to be reasearched.
Example.  Base fire control speed is 3000km/s, maximum tracking speed for fire control is 12000.  If the ship speed is 4000 and has a maching fire control the railgun has a tracking speed of 4000km/s and gets 4 shots every 5 seconds.  This would equal the chance to hit of a turreted laser with a tracking speed of 16000km/s.  
I agree with the rest of his statements about beam point defense weapons.  The only time I have ever taken the pd off of final defense was when the incomming missiles were very slow in comparison to my ship speed and tracking.  If I knew that I would get 3 shots off then it becomes worth it to take a chance on a non-optimal range final shot.
A final note, once I have my fire control up to a long enough range I will often make a x4 speed x.25 range unit for a backup fire control in case my main pd fire control gets hit.  While it usually has a crappy chance to hit because of its short range, it only takes up 1hs and is therefore a handy backup.

Brian