Author Topic: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign  (Read 4999 times)

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Offline SteveAlt

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2009, 09:55:16 AM »
My research into the various blocs such as USAN and ASEAN revealed they already have flags, which I wasn't aware of. They are in the new Flags pack I posted to the Installation forum but here they are for anyone who is interested in
vexillology

Commonwealth of Independent States
[attachment=2:3u3wzrp6]flag0325.jpg[/attachment:3u3wzrp6]

Union of South American Nations
[attachment=1:3u3wzrp6]flag0327.jpg[/attachment:3u3wzrp6]

Association of South-East Asian Nations
[attachment=0:3u3wzrp6]flag0361.JPG[/attachment:3u3wzrp6]
Steve
 

Offline SteveAlt

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2009, 12:17:09 PM »
To get this campaign moving faster than a regular conventional start, I have decided to ignore the usual Aurora allocation of research labs to conventional powers and allocate them directly using SM Mods. The trick is going to be allocating them in a reasonably fair way. One option is to allocate one research lab for every trillion dollars of current GDP (PPP), rounding to the nearest trillion with a minimum of 1

This gives:
Coalition: 18
EU: 14
China: 8
USAN: 5
ASEAN: 5
Japan: 4
India: 3
Russia/CIS: 3
Islamic Alliance: 2
Arab League: 1
African Union: 1
Israel: 1

This doesn't really look right in the middle. Based on where modern scientific breakthoughs tend to happen, I think Russia and Japan should be higher and USAN lower. Israel produces high tech weapons by itself as well. I looked on the net for a measure of a country's scientific output and found something callled Essential Science Indicators, which goes by the number of papers published and the number of citations. The league table is below sorted by the number of citations and the second one by the number of papers.  As you can see, the US is top and the UK second (England is second by itself but Scotland has a very impressive fifteenth as well). Canada and Australia are also in the top ten, which suggests the Coalition would have the most research facilities followed by the EU, Japan, China and Russia, which sounds more reasonable than a GDP-based meaure. Then, using both tables as a guide, Asean, India and USAN.

[attachment=1:39nl9cq7]Science.GIF[/attachment:39nl9cq7]
[attachment=0:39nl9cq7]Science2.GIF[/attachment:39nl9cq7]
So using the above as a guide, how does the following sound? The coalition probably should have more like 30+ on this scale but I am trying to keep it competitive.

Coalition: 20
EU: 16
Japan: 12
China: 10
Russia: 8
ASEAN: 6
India: 5
USAN: 4
Israel: 3
Islamic Alliance: 2
Arab League: 1
African Union: 1

Steve
 

Offline IanD

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2009, 03:46:34 PM »
Quote from: "SteveAlt"
India: 3

This appears a little low perhaps; they have nukes, missiles, satellites etc. I get the feeling they are much nearer China.
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IanD
 

Offline welchbloke

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2009, 06:45:17 PM »
Quote from: "IanD"
Quote from: "SteveAlt"
India: 3

This appears a little low perhaps; they have nukes, missiles, satellites etc. I get the feeling they are much nearer China.
Regards
I agree maybe 7 or 8 would be more representative.  A lot of Indian tech is now indigenous.
Welchbloke
 

Offline SteveAlt

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2009, 08:23:52 PM »
Quote from: "welchbloke"
Quote from: "IanD"
Quote from: "SteveAlt"
India: 3

This appears a little low perhaps; they have nukes, missiles, satellites etc. I get the feeling they are much nearer China.
Regards
I agree maybe 7 or 8 would be more representative.  A lot of Indian tech is now indigenous.
The 3 for India was from the list at the top of the post, which was based on GDP and I mentioned I wasn't happy with. At the bottom of the post is the suggested list for the campaign where India has five research facilities. That is the list on which I would like feedback, both on the ordering in terms of which countries have more facilities and also on the actual numbers.

Steve
 

Offline welchbloke

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2009, 09:25:35 PM »
Sorry, wasn't clear, I actually meant increase India from 5 to 7 or 8.  That'll teach me for not reading the previous post properly  :oops:
Welchbloke
 

Offline SteveAlt

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2009, 10:04:16 PM »
Quote from: "welchbloke"
Sorry, wasn't clear, I actually meant increase India from 5 to 7 or 8.  That'll teach me for not reading the previous post properly  :oops:
That would make India equal to Russia in terms of tech development and 33% better than ASEAN, which includes South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. I may be misreading India's abilities but that doesn't seem right.

Steve
 

Offline IanD

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2009, 05:22:09 AM »
Quote from: "welchbloke"
That'll teach me for not reading the previous post properly :oops:

Ditto!

Perhaps the problem is that China is too high? I tend to equate India with China in terms of development with China slightly ahead, but not much. A gap of 5 seems way too large. I would also rate Russia above China, but that’s today, not necessarily in the future.

Regards
IanD
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2009, 06:15:51 AM »
Current situation as it stands based on personal experience:

USSR has old facilities with good people but very little money for any new development work.  This results in them being great in theory but reliant on foreign contracts/collaborations when it comes to new development work.  Their research facilities are slowly decaying, but at the same time they are still capable of doing first rate work.  They have a good education system that puts out well trained researchers.

China has a lot of facilities and funding is ok-ish.  A lot of their work is derivative though.  But they are starting to get more involved in new inovative research.  If their cultural changes continue and they continue to roll in cash you would expect they would get more and more first rate research facilities.  Largely it is as question of mentality, inertia, and inexperience that is holding them back.  But they are agressive at sending their people out of country for that experience.  China at the moment has a lot of other peoples older technology (ASDEX tokamak, old russian tokamak) that they are using and gaining experience with.

India has a lot of new researchers, new labs and new projects.  They are serious about investments in R&D.  They have a major investment in education and a big population plus they also aggressively send their people out of country.

I would say all three of these groups would end up much the same in terms of research potential if for different reasons.   The key issue is funding at the end of the day.  Cutting edge science doesn't usually come cheap (there are rare and notable exceptions).  If you had multipliers for theory and practical (like the HOI3 system) you could probably model the situation fairly good.  Or else give research modifiers to the various groups.  The russians and chinese would then end up with a large number of facilities but each facility would not be very efficient and India would have less facilities but each would  be at base efficiency.  Hard to say how things go in the future but in terms of future potential I would go India, China and then the Russians.  Unless the Russian economy rebounds then they would take the lead of these three.  The Russians have a huge investment in a R&D infrastructure (which is decaying but still impressive).
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2009, 07:09:03 AM »
adjust the starting levels for research points as well.  Lab count is only part the the equation for total points to spend on research.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline IanD

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2009, 07:19:59 AM »
Quote from: "Paul M"
Current situation as it stands based on personal experience:

This appears a reasonable assessment. In my own field there is little between the US and Europe, with the Europeans just ahead in application.

One note of caution is that when looking at citation indices, French scientists still publish in a number of French language journals that makes them less accessible to the English-speaking world, so the contribution of the French could be underestimated.

Regards
IanD
 

Offline welchbloke

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2009, 07:11:30 PM »
Quote from: "SteveAlt"
Quote from: "welchbloke"
Sorry, wasn't clear, I actually meant increase India from 5 to 7 or 8.  That'll teach me for not reading the previous post properly  :oops:
That would make India equal to Russia in terms of tech development and 33% better than ASEAN, which includes South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. I may be misreading India's abilities but that doesn't seem right.

Steve
I'm within Ian on this I would equate China and India.  I have to say that from my perspective Russia is currently living on past glories they don't appear to be spending much R&D money at present whilst India and China are.  Having spoken to a couple of senior Indian AF guys the impression I get is that they see China as the real regional threat (not Pakistan) and need to gain some sort of parity with them.  I'm unsure as to where I'd place the ASEAN group probably slightly higher than China/India and Russia for R&D.
Welchbloke
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2009, 08:09:03 PM »
Quote from: "welchbloke"
Quote from: "SteveAlt"
Quote from: "welchbloke"
Sorry, wasn't clear, I actually meant increase India from 5 to 7 or 8.  That'll teach me for not reading the previous post properly  :oops:
That would make India equal to Russia in terms of tech development and 33% better than ASEAN, which includes South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. I may be misreading India's abilities but that doesn't seem right.

Steve
I'm within Ian on this I would equate China and India.  I have to say that from my perspective Russia is currently living on past glories they don't appear to be spending much R&D money at present whilst India and China are.  Having spoken to a couple of senior Indian AF guys the impression I get is that they see China as the real regional threat (not Pakistan) and need to gain some sort of parity with them.  I'm unsure as to where I'd place the ASEAN group probably slightly higher than China/India and Russia for R&D.

This might be a "past glories" attitude, but putting Russia behind India and/or China doesn't feel right to me.  I left physics 10 years ago, and haven't paid a lot of attention to military hardware recently, but it still seems to me that in terms of space programs (in a year or two they'll be the only country launching frequent regular manned flights), high-end military aircraft, and (possibly) high-end naval forces they still are a source of technology.  One indicator of this might be to look at military aviation, missile, and ship export sales - I suspect Russia would be ahead of both India and China.  I guess that puts me with Ian in thinking that China is too high relative to India and Russia.

Something that occurred to me when looking at the list of labs.  I thought "gee, a country with no labs but  big economy could just build a lot of labs and close the gap".  It sounds like Charlie suggested a good solution to this - do the same thing for research that you did for wealth, where each empire starts at a (potentially different) base level of RP/lab, and the tech levels grow that rate by e.g. 20%.  Then you could give e.g. China a larger number of labs that produced fewer RP each.

John
 

Offline welchbloke

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2009, 08:38:19 PM »
Quote from: "sloanjh"
*SNIP*
This might be a "past glories" attitude, but putting Russia behind India and/or China doesn't feel right to me.  I left physics 10 years ago, and haven't paid a lot of attention to military hardware recently, but it still seems to me that in terms of space programs (in a year or two they'll be the only country launching frequent regular manned flights), high-end military aircraft, and (possibly) high-end naval forces they still are a source of technology.  One indicator of this might be to look at military aviation, missile, and ship export sales - I suspect Russia would be ahead of both India and China.  I guess that puts me with Ian in thinking that China is too high relative to India and Russia.
John
I guess my issue is that Russia are using technology that they developed 10plus yrs ago to launch their regular manned flights.  It works, it's reasonably safe and it's still in use for the foreseeable future.  The difference with the Chinese and Indians is that both of those nations are actively investing in developing their space programmes; look at the number of different types of satellites they are both launching, both have designs on lunar programmes and both are increasing their astronaut(taikonaut) corps.  The Russians want to develop a new launcher (Angara) but there is no money for it.  In terms of military hardware the Russians have great SAM systems that they continue to develop but their aviation industry is starved of funds and not really producing much in the way of real R&D effort.  If you look at exports I suspect that the Chinese are close to the Russians for selling military hardware (a lot of which is actually license (or not) produced russian equipment).  The Chinese are very good at copying and reverse engineering tech and, in areas where they can't buy the tech, they seem to have a very good R&D effort.  How you actually translate that into labs in Aurora is probably open to a great deal of subjectivity and I would suggest that Steve has a great deal of room for manoeuvre.  Anyway, I'm enjoying the discussion that this thread has generated. :D
Welchbloke
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Help needed with Starting Races for New Campaign
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2009, 09:47:28 AM »
Hi Steve,

  I just thought of something based on my own conventional campaign - you'll probably want to look into a "tech offset" in NPR generation for your conventional campaign.

  In my campaign, it took me roughly 15 years to get out of the solar system.  This was with "hacked"  (50%) costs for construction factories and mines; I suspect that a normal campaign would take closer to 20 years.  In addition, I focused pretty heavily on economic development and military, plus I had plenty of minerals.  I suspect that your campaign will focus more on military (leading to an even longer "exit time"), plus you might have a mineral crash before you get out-of-system.  So it's not unreasonable to believe that your campaign will take 25 years to begin exploring the neighborhood of Sol.

  As you explained in 4.0b, the tech points available to an NPR at generation is proportional to the time since the game's start.  My first NPR was encountered only two jumps from Sol, and they are vastly ahead of me in terms of technology.  For example, they're using MHD engines while I'm still on Nuclear Pulse.  I expect that all the other races I encounter are going to be similarly advanced.  At present, the only way I can think of to avoid being squashed like a bug is to make friends with them and try to get them to give me technology (I don't remember if this happens at high levels of alliance or not).

  I have two thoughts on how to avoid this situation:

1)  During startup, allow a tech offset to be specified, e.g. 20 years.  This offset would be added to the start date for the purposes of NPR generation.

2)  For each starting race (player or NPR), remember the date of 1st jump.  When a race discovers a new NPR, use this date as the start date when generating that NPR, and pass the date along to the new NPR as that race's 1st jump date.

  One more thing I'm having trouble with on the NPR AI front - I don't know how to declare ownership of a system or body to a neutral NPR with whom I've established communications.  After discovering the NPR 2 jumps out, I withdrew to the middle system and picketed the WP with a scout with active sensors blasting away.  This system had a habitable world on it; I was going to put a colony on it, but realized that that would hurt my public's opinion of the aliens if/when they came through the WP.  Eventually they did come through the WP, and were picked up by my active sensors blasting away.  Rather than recognizing this as a claimed system, however, they sent through a bunch (7) of colony ships and proceeded to colonize the habitable world.  (BTW, they didn't have to geo-survey it before colonizing!  I understand that this makes life simpler for you, but it seems a bit unfair.)  I suspect that this is what's always going to happen - when they discover my home world they're going to charge into it as well and start grabbing territory.  The thing I'm concerned about is that I suspect that this is the only behavior NPR will exhibit - I would rather have them make a random decision as to whether they're going to ignore existing claims to a system or avoid contact and leave (or at least not colonize) if they discover an alien presence in a system.  From a game mechanics point of view, it feels like there's always going to be a war, since they'll eventually colonize my home system (or even home world) then get all paranoid when they detect my fleet.

OTOH, this dynamic of them barging into systems that I consider mine and me being concerned about their territory grabs is certainly exactly the way a lot of historical wars have started - if the tech differential weren't so big I suspect I'd be a lot less concerned about it.

One thing I haven't tried (didn't think of it) is declaring an exclusion zone.  I don't know if these are still active or if aliens will pay attention to them.

Thanks,
John