Author Topic: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP  (Read 7577 times)

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Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2013, 04:49:57 PM »
I think a good first step would be to separate planetary PDCs from orbiting space stations. Space stations can be towed and should work more like ships but with no maintainance failures of their own as long as you provide a set amount of eng spaces.
 

Offline ollobrains

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2013, 10:04:52 PM »
orbital facilities should be anything perhaps without an engine would love to hear steve thoughts on this
 

Offline Rogtuok

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2013, 02:06:36 AM »
A orbital station could have a modul named orbital docking or something that whoud enable you to add som special mods like dry dock orbital factories and other things.  Could make it something like building a PDC that you need prebuild the parts planet side until you got it up and running and from ther it needs minerals to add to the station.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2013, 01:11:28 PM »
Or to build further on these ideas. Isn't really shipyards and jump-gates alredy a kind of space station? With a really open system you can envision adding space station modules for defense or habitat, mass drivers, Cargo, fuel and so on, to alredy existing gates. This also opens up towing around gates and shipyards freely, and build or maintain/overhaul ships in the middle of space with minerals deliverd by mass driver and stored in cargo.

It also adds a new game mechanic. By putting the defense right on your gate the enemy have to risk blowing it up rendering it useless.

And why does construction have to be limited and use different rules? Any station (including gates and shipyard) complexes should be possible to build with both construction ships and planetary Industry, and require enough minerals (no free gates).

I guess one of the first balance questions with such a system is, can space stations travel between systems? Another good related one is, shouldnt jump gates have a maximum ship size they can transport, which might be possible to expand by adding more generic jump gate modules to our now modular jumpgate space station.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2013, 02:04:43 PM »
Currently Jumpgates are envisioned as stabilized wormhole entrances.  They don't have material components per se.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2013, 02:45:58 PM »
Which sounds more like technobabble exuses then how we would want the game to work imho. A Construction Ship building a "gate" at least gives me an impression that some physical construction is ongoing.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2013, 03:05:52 PM »
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Thundercraft

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2013, 05:59:00 PM »
Building a gate around a jump point immediately brings to mind the jump gates in Babylon 5.  And the jump gates in the Egosoft games - X: Beyond the Frontier, X2: The Return, and X3: Reunion.  Heck, just about every sci-fi mention of jump gates I can think of refer to physical gates in which a jump point can be used.  You could almost consider the Wing Commander series an exception… except they always refer to them as "jump points", never as "jump gates".   

I'm also reminded of the star gates in SG:Atlantis and SGU.  But they don't call them "jump gates".   

Quote from: Charlie Beeler link=topic=1784.  msg61205#msg61205 date=1363032352
Perhaps Steve opinion will help…

This is what he said,
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=3630. msg35388#msg35388 date=1306663339
…the stablised jump point, rather than an actual physical jump gate, is how I tend to view it as well.  Maybe I should make that canon.  I'll give it some thought.

Notice the "tend(s) to view" and the part about still deciding whether or not to make this canon?

Also, there's more than one way to interpret that statement.  It sounds like he either a) envisions them as a stable jump point with no physical component whatsoever -or- that b) he thinks of the jump point first and foremost when thinking of jump gates (allow jump gates to have some physical component).   

Quote from: alex brunius link=topic=1784.  msg61204#msg61204 date=1363031158
Which sounds more like technobabble excuses then how we would want the game to work imho.  A Construction Ship building a "gate" at least gives me an impression that some physical construction is ongoing.   

I'd agree that it does sound like trying to excuse things away.  And "building" a gate does imply that something physical is constructed.  Though, it really is Steve's game, so the way "we would want" many not have much weight.  That said, it's usually impossible please everyone, so why not make more stuff like this an option that players can turn on or off? (I'm reminded of games like Dwarf Fortress with "init" text files which allows tremendous customization to suit all sorts of player preferences…)

Quote from: Rogtuok link=topic=1784. msg61180#msg61180 date=1362985596
A orbital station could have a module named orbital docking or something that whoud enable you to add som special mods like dry dock orbital factories and other things.  Could make it something like building a PDC that you need prebuild the parts planet side until you got it up and running and from ther it needs minerals to add to the station.

Considering how sophisticated a simulator Aurora is, I'm surprised that this isn't already implemented.  It's a much more realistic approach.  It shouldn't even matter if players want to do something weird, like try to combine a shipyard with the capabilities of a Deep Space Tracking Station by combining the relevant modules.  (I'm reminded of the Xpace game, where one could build whatever type of station one would want merely by designing it with certain modules. )

Space stations are the heart and soul of space exploration.  Imagine in the real world trying to colonize mars or explore/exploit the asteroids or other solar bodies without a space station.  But even in fiction they are important.   
One can envision other uses for them besides shipyards, tracking stations, and refueling, too.  Weapons platforms would be cool.  Even something like financial/commercial stations or luxury stations that increase wealth would be nice.   
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 06:10:34 PM by Thundercraft »
"Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine." - Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2013, 09:10:48 PM »
O come on guys don't nitpick.

You can build all the space stations you want, they just have to follow the same rules as ships.

The only thing limiting space stations right now is maintenance rules. 


ps. Just because populations are organized by body doesn't mean the facilities are on the ground.  :]
 

Offline ollobrains

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2013, 11:37:43 PM »
and if u turn on the option to have jump gates automatic at each jump point ( think ancients or a naturally occouring wormhole) that fixes that to
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2013, 06:33:17 AM »
Perhaps Steve opinion will help...
And in another place he wrote that one of the main uses for sorium is jump gate construction...

We are just trying to suggest that it might be smart to redo and implement space stations and jumpgates properly, given how central they are to almost all sci fi lore in games, books and movies. It's not easy to find a single story without either stations or physical jumpgates in Space.

Aurora for me is about generating and experiencing a sci fi story, and without space stations it's a bit of an immersion breaker for me.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2013, 07:46:06 AM »
True, Steve has not made it absolute canon that jumpgates are stabilized wormholes. 

Some things to take into consideration. 

Gate construction does not use any minerals/components in the current version of the game.  Most of you have not been around long enough to remember that this was not always the case.  It used to be that gate components were manufactured by your industry and only assembled by gate construction ships. 

Back when the component feature of gate construction was removed there had been a growing push to have a way to target and destroy the gates.  Instead of building a functional way for combat ships to destroy gates, Steve removed the components thus negating the argument that physical components could be destroyed. 

Something else too consider.  There is no limit to hull mass that can transit a jumppoint at any one time.  This lends itself to the concept of stabilized wormhole better than a physical construct.

Yes most of this is just my opinion.  It is based on something of the order of 15 years of interacting with Steve rules interpretation and programming support of same.  I'm not perfect in my interpretation as Steve has pointed out over the years. 

Your mileage may very.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2013, 09:13:07 AM »
Quote
Aurora for me is about generating and experiencing a sci fi story, and without space stations it's a bit of an immersion breaker for me.
:|

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716 km/s     Armour 5-563     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
MSP 14    Max Repair 200 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 68   
Habitation Capacity 50,000    Tractor Beam     
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This design is classed as an Orbital Habitat for construction purposes

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Agincourt class Citadel    12,500 tons     173 Crew     1361 BP      TCS 250  TH 0  EM 0
1 km/s     Armour 5-47     Shields 0-0     Sensors 14/14/0/0     Damage Control Rating 11     PPV 0
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Hangar Deck Capacity 4000 tons     Troop Capacity: 1 Battalion   

Fuel Capacity 500,000 Litres    Range N/A

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Y203 Marathon - Copy class Fuel Harvester    135,750 tons     538 Crew     2695.2 BP      TCS 2715  TH 0  EM 0
1 km/s     Armour 1-235     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
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Cryogenic Berths 1000    Tractor Beam     
Fuel Harvester: 50 modules producing 1400000 litres per annum

Fuel Capacity 6,000,000 Litres    Range N/A

UN PHALANX  (2x6)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
X-Band Navigational Scanner (1)     GPS 1600     Range 12.8m km    Resolution 100

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2013, 08:42:53 AM »
Ofcourse mostly semantics but in any dictionary I have seen "massive structure" was as not one of the interpretations of "vessel".  ;)

But thanks for reminding me that Aurora is pretty flexible so you can build alot of ships that behave similarly to how a starbase would, which is ofcourse good and something I acknowledge.

Also interresting to know some history on this matter, thanks for that Charlie.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2013, 02:11:24 PM »
Well, I would say it's in part because there's very little difference between a space station and a ship in practice.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISS_Propulsion_Module

We're used to the dichotomy between a harbor/naval base and a ship.  Harbors are fundamentally different than ships, but space stations are just ships without engines. But we have inertia cancellation and artificial gravity (presumably).  We can put engines on a space station without even worrying about structural factors. 

You're right though that we can't really build what people want, which is giant space military space stations to guard jump points.  It's just not practical with maintenance rules :)

Various interpretations of self-maintenance modules have been proposed, I assume it's something on Steve's long term 'look at' list.