critique my warships now i-fusion

[Jackal Cry]

Here is the next generation fleet.  Due to the larger sensors and fire controls I had to reduce the number of launchers on the AMM destroyer Jackal.  However, they have much more range and should actually be able to hit something this time.  Upgrading to a new armor technology allowed me to keep the same number of launchers on the ASM cruiser Wolf.  Also note the missiles are upgraded to magnetoplasma, too. 

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Jackal Mk 2 class Destroyer Escort    7,000 tons     160 Crew     1345 BP      TCS 140  TH 560  EM 0
4000 km/s     Armour 5-32     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 12
Maint Life 1.54 Years     MSP 240    AFR 196%    IFR 2.7%    1YR 116    5YR 1738    Max Repair 240 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 1   
Magazine 372 

80 EP Military Magneto-plasma Drive (7)    Power 80    Fuel Use 85.5%    Signature 80    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 550,000 Litres    Range 16.5 billion km   (47 days at full power)

Size 1 Missile Launcher 10sR (12)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Jackal 2 Missile Fire Control FC23-R1 (2)     Range 23.0m km    Resolution 1
AMM Dart-1B (320)  Speed: 28,000 km/s   End: 12.6m    Range: 21.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 121/72/36

Active Anti-Missile Search Sensor MR14-R1 (1)     GPS 240     Range 14.4m km    Resolution 1  

Your AMMs have too long a range. If your anti-missile sensor has a range of 14.4m km, then it should be detecting enemy missiles are a much closer range than 14.4m km since missiles are smaller than Hull Size 1. Your AMMs have far too great a range for that. They need a range long enough that, if you fired a salvo as soon as you detected hostile missiles approaching, they would reach the hostile missiles. Any range greater than that equates to wasted fuel. I suggest making your missiles more agile or faster and using less weight for fuel.

The other ships are irrelevant to my interests and so I ignore them.

[joeclark77 (OP)]

If your anti-missile sensor has a range of 14.4m km, then it should be detecting enemy missiles are a much closer range than 14.4m km since missiles are smaller than Hull Size 1.

Is there any way to compute the true range at which size 1 missiles will be detected?
My missiles are respectable enough but yes, I will refine them a bit in the next generation.

[sloanjh]

Is there any way to compute the true range at which size 1 missiles will be detected?
My missiles are respectable enough but yes, I will refine them a bit in the next generation.

Detection range goes down for stuff smaller than resolution like (size/resolution)^2.  Any missile smaller than size 6 will be treated as size 6 for detection purposes.  A size-1 missile is 1/20 of a Hull Space.  So it's (6/20)^2 = .09 of detection vs. a size-1 ship target.

Note that there was a bug a few years ago (don't know if it's still there) that incorrectly calculated this on the missiles stats report, i.e. the "vs. size 6 missiles" number wasn't right.  Don't remember if it's now fixed.

John

[Hawkeye]

Your ships look fine now. There is one thing, I´d like to point out though


Take another look at your missiles, especially your Spike-5Bs.

The missile below, I threw together using
1 x size 2.5 magneto plasma drive engine with max power modification (4.0)
a size 1.8 MSP warhead (Fusion-boosted Fission Warhead - 5 damage per MSP)
0.45 MSP in Fuel and (Fuel Consumpton per EPH 0.6)
0.25 MSP in Agility  (64 Agility per MSP)

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Missile Size: 5 MSP  (0.25 HS)     Warhead: 9    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 13
Speed: 32000 km/s    Engine Endurance: 55 minutes   Range: 105.1m km
Cost Per Missile: 4.57
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 416%   3k km/s 130%   5k km/s 83.2%   10k km/s 41.6%
Materials Required:    2.25x Tritanium   2.32x Gallicite   Fuel x1125

Development Cost for Project: 457RP

While your missile has a somewhat longer range and a little bit more punch, mine is twice as fast and has a 83% chance to hit a target moving at 5000 km/s
The latter two things mean, that my missiles first have a much better chance to make it through enemy PD and second, four out of five of my missiles (that survive PD) will hit, dealing 36 points of damage, where out of five of your missiles (assuming they survive enemy PD) only 1.5 will hit, dealing 16.5 points of damage.


Now for your Dart-1B.
Below is a missile I build using a size 0.6 Engine (again max power mod)
a size 0.2 warhead for 1 point of damage
0.02 MSP of Fuel and
0.18 MSP in Agility

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Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 1    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 22
Speed: 38400 km/s    Engine Endurance: 4 minutes   Range: 8.8m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.9604
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 844.8%   3k km/s 264%   5k km/s 169%   10k km/s 84.5%
Materials Required:    0.25x Tritanium   0.7104x Gallicite   Fuel x50

Development Cost for Project: 96RP
This missile would have about a 50% chance to hit one of _your_ missiles, but only about a 28% chance to hit one of my own ASMs.
Your AMMs, on the other hand, only have a 24% chance to hit your own ASMs and an abyssimal 10% chance to hit one of mine.

[Charlie Beeler]

Charlie I'd say. I sometimes have trouble adding 2 and 2 to get 5 like it's supposed to.

I did some, but Theokrat is the one who posted the best statistical analysis formula.  The subject id is "formations" from August of last year. 

The single biggest problem with area defense is that most beam weapons do not have the requisite range to engage missiles during successive 5-second combat cycles.

[joeclark77 (OP)]

FYI, I sent the new fleet out to deal with the aliens and was victorious, but the enemy never fired a shot.  I would deem it an improbable coincidence that their very last volley that destroyed my previous fleet was the one that expended their last missile.  So I'm guessing that my victory was either due to my firing from outside the range at which they could detect me, or simply poor AI.  Their remaining fleet consisted of two PDCs and one 9000-ton ship hanging out at the planet.  Since the old Lion carriers are going to be scrapped soon anyway, I decided to bring them into the fight and let their fighters fire their obsolete missiles.  I figured this would help me figure out how to manage combat with fighters, as well as absorb some of the enemy AMMs.  To my surprise, the first volley obliterated one of the enemy PDCs without a single missile destroyed by point defense.  Perhaps they had the AMMs but they were all configured for offensive mode or something.  Volleys from my Wolf cruisers destroyed the other enemies, and I have now secured the system.  Unfortunately I never got to test whether my anti-missile defenses on the Jackal and Fox were worth anything.

Improving the sensors made a huge difference.  I was able to detect and target the enemy from 130m+ km instead of <10m km, which gave me time for leisurely fighter maneuvers and reloading without taking constant fire.

The fighters were fun, so I'm thinking that the next generation of my fleet will be built around carriers instead of missile cruisers.  I'll have internal confinement fusion engines in a couple of years, so I'm expanding shipyards to larger sizes now.

[joeclark77 (OP)]

I've played a few games since this thread, but no sense in making a new one.  In my current game I've arrived at the internal containment fusion era.  I have run into swarm aliens in multiple directions from my home world and really need to get past them.  I've also run into an NPR that uses lots of small FACs with short-range weapons.  I had a missile cruiser that I thought could smash them from long range, but I stupidly didn't have a fire control suitable for targeting FACs, so they closed the range and shredded me.  Somehow I guess I thought that missile fire controls were only distinguished by range, and could target anything in their range if you had a sensor that could pick it up.  The new generation of ships is based on an updated version of the Stalwart missile cruiser.  With a full suite of sensors including a backup anti-missile sensor, its own PD lasers, and a choice of two different fire control resolutions, this ship could theoretically operate on its own almost as effectively as with a fleet.

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Stalwart-D class Missile Cruiser    16,000 tons     373 Crew     2677 BP      TCS 320  TH 1280  EM 0
4000 km/s     Armour 7-56     Shields 0-0     Sensors 40/40/0/0     Damage Control Rating 6     PPV 48
Maint Life 2.2 Years     MSP 627    AFR 341%    IFR 4.7%    1YR 174    5YR 2616    Max Repair 160 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 1   
Magazine 680    Cryogenic Berths 200   

160 EP Military Internal Fusion Drive (8)    Power 160    Fuel Use 36.06%    Signature 160    Exp 8%
Fuel Capacity 1,800,000 Litres    Range 56.2 billion km   (162 days at full power)

12cm C4 Far Ultraviolet PD Laser (2)    Range 192,000km     TS: 4000 km/s     Power 4-4     RM 5    ROF 5        4 4 4 4 4 3 2 2 2 2
Centaur PD Laser Fire Control S04 96-4000 (1)    Max Range: 192,000 km   TS: 4000 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Tokamak Fusion Reactor for PD Laser (2)     Total Power Output 8    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Autoloading Firebrand Missile Launcher I (8)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 50
Stalwart Missile Fire Control FC109-R160 (2)     Range 109.3m km    Resolution 160
Stalwart Anti-FAC Fire Control FC61-R16 (2)     Range 61.4m km    Resolution 16
Firebrand-3A (136)  Speed: 49,000 km/s   End: 38.3m    Range: 112.6m km   WH: 4    Size: 5    TH: 179/107/53

10HS Ship Detector Gen2 MR166-R170 (1)     GPS 27200     Range 166.9m km    Resolution 170
2HS Missile Detector Gen2 MR2-R1 (1)     GPS 32     Range 2.6m km    Resolution 1
10HS FAC Detector Gen2 MR51-R16 (1)     GPS 2560     Range 51.2m km    Resolution 16
5HS Thermal Sensor Gen2 TH5-40 (1)     Sensitivity 40     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  40m km
5HS EM Detection Sensor Gen2 EM5-40 (1)     Sensitivity 40     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  40m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
The Stalwarts have been accompanied from the beginning by Ready class destroyers.  Originally these carried the only lasers in the fleet and were intended for point defense.  Now everybody has some PD lasers and they cover each other, so the Ready class has become my energy weapon brawler with twelve medium-sized lasers suitable for close-range combat.  Hmm, I just noticed that the 15cm lasers need to be updated to a new wavelength.  Once I get some technology for longer-range beam fire controls and better capacitor recharge, I will move up to 20cm guns.

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Ready-E class Destroyer    12,000 tons     343 Crew     2273.2 BP      TCS 240  TH 960  EM 0
4000 km/s     Armour 8-46     Shields 0-0     Sensors 8/8/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 68
Maint Life 2.23 Years     MSP 474    AFR 288%    IFR 4%    1YR 128    5YR 1924    Max Repair 160 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 0   

160 EP Military Internal Fusion Drive (6)    Power 160    Fuel Use 36.06%    Signature 160    Exp 8%
Fuel Capacity 1,150,000 Litres    Range 47.8 billion km   (138 days at full power)

15cm C3 Ultraviolet Laser (12)    Range 192,000km     TS: 4000 km/s     Power 6-3     RM 4    ROF 10        6 6 6 6 4 4 3 3 2 2
12cm C4 Far Ultraviolet PD Laser (5)    Range 192,000km     TS: 4000 km/s     Power 4-4     RM 5    ROF 5        4 4 4 4 4 3 2 2 2 2
Centaur PD Laser Fire Control S04 96-4000 (3)    Max Range: 192,000 km   TS: 4000 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Tokamak Fusion Reactor for PD Laser (14)     Total Power Output 56    Armour 0    Exp 5%

10HS Missile Detector Gen2 MR12-R1 (1)     GPS 160     Range 12.8m km    Resolution 1
2HS Ship Detector Gen2 MR33-R170 (1)     GPS 5440     Range 33.4m km    Resolution 170
1HS Thermal Sensor Gen2 TH1-8 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  8m km
1HS EM Detection Sensor Gen2 EM1-8 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  8m km
The newest addition to the fleet is the Centaur class jump cruiser.  I had experimented earlier with a carrier as the jumpship, but I lost a couple carriers by getting them too close to the action, and the squad jump drive took up way too much tonnage that could have been hangar space.  The Centaur will augment the fleet's point defense with my new AMMs.  (I only just got a missile research guy, so I know the missiles themselves are lacking, but I'm working on it.)

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Centaur-A class Jump Cruiser    16,000 tons     398 Crew     2726.6 BP      TCS 320  TH 1280  EM 0
4000 km/s    JR 5-100     Armour 6-56     Shields 0-0     Sensors 40/40/0/0     Damage Control Rating 5     PPV 20
Maint Life 1.54 Years     MSP 1533    AFR 409%    IFR 5.7%    1YR 736    5YR 11043    Max Repair 510 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 0   
Flag Bridge    Magazine 328   

J16500(5-100) Gen2 Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 16500 tons    Distance 100k km     Squadron Size 5
160 EP Military Internal Fusion Drive (8)    Power 160    Fuel Use 36.06%    Signature 160    Exp 8%
Fuel Capacity 1,500,000 Litres    Range 46.8 billion km   (135 days at full power)

12cm C4 Far Ultraviolet PD Laser (3)    Range 192,000km     TS: 4000 km/s     Power 4-4     RM 5    ROF 5        4 4 4 4 4 3 2 2 2 2
Centaur PD Laser Fire Control S04 96-4000 (1)    Max Range: 192,000 km   TS: 4000 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Tokamak Fusion Reactor for PD Laser (3)     Total Power Output 12    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Autoloading Surefire Missile Launcher I (8)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Surefire AMM Fire Control FC11-R1 (2)     Range 11.5m km    Resolution 1
Surefire-3A (328)  Speed: 49,000 km/s   End: 5m    Range: 14.7m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 179/107/53

2HS Ship Detector Gen2 MR33-R170 (1)     GPS 5440     Range 33.4m km    Resolution 170
10HS Missile Detector Gen2 MR12-R1 (1)     GPS 160     Range 12.8m km    Resolution 1
5HS Thermal Sensor Gen2 TH5-40 (1)     Sensitivity 40     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  40m km
5HS EM Detection Sensor Gen2 EM5-40 (1)     Sensitivity 40     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  40m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
I am also using some old carriers with some mediocre fighters that will be updated as soon as I build some hangar-PDCs to store the obsolete ones.  The fighters are never intended to get close to the enemy, but rather to launch an extremely large opening volley (and maybe one more) to thin out the enemy's fleet of FACs, then retreat through a jump point to their mothership.  Then the Stalwarts will fire successive volleys at the approaching FACs.  If any survive to get close, the whole fleet can open up on them with their PD lasers in offensive mode.  Or the jump cruiser can lead us on a heroic retreat through a JP.  Given the 5-ship limit on the jump drive, my task groups are one Centaur, two Stalwarts, and two Readys each.

[joeclark77 (OP)]

One fleet of 1x Centaur, 2x Stalwart, and 2x Ready performed gloriously against an alien fleet consisting of some 70 FACs and one huge mothership.  The Stalwarts unloaded their magazines and shredded the 50 or so approaching FACs long before they could close to energy ranges.  The enemy were not missile users so the Centaur expended its AMMs to soften up the remaining FACs, and those that reached energy range were quickly blown away by the laser batteries on the Readys.  Only the Centaur took damage, and it withstood a great deal.  20 more FACs were launched from the mothership when my fleet closed in to laser range.  Taken by surprise, the Centaur took a lot more damage but stayed in the fight.  At close range it only took a few volleys for our lasers to eliminate the ambushing FACs.

Reviewing the battle I've come to some conclusions:
First, my missiles have too small a warhead for being size 5.  I can squeeze a 9-power on there by significantly reducing the speed, or I could simply go to a much smaller missile while keeping the 4-power warhead.  Since my anti-FAC sensors and fire controls allow me the leisure of firing as many volleys as I want, long before the enemy closes range, there's no reason why I couldn't fire twice as many volleys of a missile half the size.  I'm trying the 9-power warhead approach first, but considering smaller launchers and missiles in the next generation.

Second, my 15cm lasers are less than desired.  The 12cm PD lasers do similar damage except at point blank range, and fire twice as often.  I should improve capacitor recharge technology in the long run.  In the short run, I should either fit more of the small lasers or go to an even-bigger laser so that I'm getting a damage benefit in exchange for accepting the lower rate of fire.