Author Topic: Beams only  (Read 6552 times)

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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2014, 05:12:21 PM »
The ship already has a low repair capacity in comparison with the largest component, which I assume is the engine. So if an engine receive a maintenance failure on the ship as is right now you can't fix it and will have to return to a naval yard and repair it. Battle damage also cost twice this so you would need a capacity of 2500MSP repair to fix an engine that is damaged. If you make the engine even bigger then you will just need even more engineering facilities.

If you also consider the very low maintenance cycle for this ship you can soon find yourself in a big trouble.

I think you should think about this before building the ship.
 

Offline Stardust (OP)

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2014, 07:23:47 PM »
So many variables.  Now maintenance costs enter into the picture.

OK, we'll go with this for now.  I think.
Quote
Tennessee II class Cruiser    15,000 tons     546 Crew     3631.7 BP      TCS 300  TH 2250  EM 0
7500 km/s     Armour 15-54     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 3     PPV 106.44
Maint Life 0.63 Years     MSP 454    AFR 600%    IFR 8.3%    1YR 726    5YR 10886    Max Repair 375 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 1   

750 EP Magnetic Fusion Drive (3)    Power 750    Fuel Use 110.23%    Signature 750    Exp 15%
Fuel Capacity 1,850,000 Litres    Range 20.1 billion km   (31 days at full power)

20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser (4)    Range 192,000km     TS: 7500 km/s     Power 10-5     RM 4    ROF 10        10 10 10 10 8 6 5 5 4 4
Quad R9/C3/16 Meson Cannon Turret (4x4)    Range 90,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 24-12     RM 9    ROF 10        1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0
Laser Targeting Computer S06 96-8000 (2)    Max Range: 192,000 km   TS: 8000 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Beam Targeting Computer S06 48-16000 (2)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
Magnetic Confinement Fusion Reactor S.5 (14)     Total Power Output 70    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Missile Detection Processor MR2-R1 (1)     GPS 32     Range 2.6m km    MCR 279k km    Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor MR25-R100 (1)     GPS 5000     Range 25.0m km    Resolution 100

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
 

Offline Hydrofoil

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2014, 07:48:08 AM »
Im still new to this game but two of each of your targeting computers strikes me as odd why not remove the excess ones and possibly a meson to two add in extra MSP
 

Offline Stardust (OP)

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2014, 08:10:29 AM »
Im still new to this game but two of each of your targeting computers strikes me as odd why not remove the excess ones and possibly a meson to two add in extra MSP

While my scientists work on delivering a larger more fuel efficient engine, I'm considering doing just as you suggest.
 

Offline Black

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2014, 11:52:58 AM »
It is better to have more fire controls, you can shoot on more targets, in case of 4 FCs you can target 4 different targets. If one of your fire controls is destroyed in battle you will still be able to shoot. Ships with only one fire control will be helpless when that fire control is destroyed.
 

Offline Stardust (OP)

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2014, 01:01:16 PM »
Using two 30HS engines instead of three 20HS engines saves some fuel.

Quote
Tennessee II class Cruiser    15,000 tons     557 Crew     3562.7 BP      TCS 300  TH 2250  EM 0
7500 km/s     Armour 15-54     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 112.44
Maint Life 0.79 Years     MSP 594    AFR 450%    IFR 6.2%    1YR 749    5YR 11239    Max Repair 562.5 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 1   

1125 EP Magnetic Fusion Drive (2)    Power 1125    Fuel Use 96.45%    Signature 1125    Exp 15%
Fuel Capacity 1,750,000 Litres    Range 21.8 billion km   (33 days at full power)

20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser (5)    Range 192,000km     TS: 7500 km/s     Power 10-5     RM 4    ROF 10        10 10 10 10 8 6 5 5 4 4
Quad R9/C3/16 Meson Cannon Turret (4x4)    Range 90,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 24-12     RM 9    ROF 10        1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0
Laser Targeting Computer S06 96-8000 (1)    Max Range: 192,000 km   TS: 8000 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Beam Targeting Computer S06 48-16000 (2)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
Magnetic Confinement Fusion Reactor S.5 (14)     Total Power Output 70    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Missile Detection Processor MR2-R1 (1)     GPS 32     Range 2.6m km    MCR 279k km    Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor MR25-R100 (1)     GPS 5000     Range 25.0m km    Resolution 100

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

 

Offline SteelChicken

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2014, 01:06:48 PM »
Not a bad revision.

Personally, I would still ditch one of the beam fire controls and add a thermal sensor.
 

Offline Stardust (OP)

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2014, 02:09:49 PM »
Not a bad revision.

Personally, I would still ditch one of the beam fire controls and add a thermal sensor.

They will primarily be used as reactionary system defense vessels at first and most of these systems will have deep space scanning stations for passive surveillance.
 

Iranon

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2014, 04:30:16 AM »
Still wasteful. Try this:

25 HS fuel (1,250,000l)
2 size 35 engines, at 86-90% of your current power multiplier - depending on whether you want better speed or better range. Total tonnage will stay the same, and you'll need 29% less fuel.

Edit: If you need to adjust crew quarters/engineering spaces because of the larger engines, do so at the expense of fuel. My example is about as close to  the performance-optimal fuel:engine ratio as I care to go, dropping a little lower in the name of fuel efficiency is quite ok.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 04:42:25 AM by Iranon »
 

Offline Stardust (OP)

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2014, 04:42:28 PM »
Still wasteful. Try this:

25 HS fuel (1,250,000l)
2 size 35 engines, at 86-90% of your current power multiplier - depending on whether you want better speed or better range. Total tonnage will stay the same, and you'll need 29% less fuel.

OK.  Note that we've increased our fuel efficiency from 0.5 to 0.4 l/eph.

Quote
Tennessee II class Cruiser    15,000 tons     562 Crew     3575.95 BP      TCS 300  TH 2362  EM 0
7873 km/s     Armour 15-54     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 112.44
Maint Life 0.69 Years     MSP 596    AFR 450%    IFR 6.2%    1YR 865    5YR 12969    Max Repair 590.625 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 3   

1181.25 EP Magnetic Fusion Drive (2)    Power 1181.25    Fuel Use 55.06%    Signature 1181.25    Exp 13%
Fuel Capacity 1,250,000 Litres    Range 27.2 billion km   (40 days at full power)

20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser (5)    Range 192,000km     TS: 7873 km/s     Power 10-5     RM 4    ROF 10        10 10 10 10 8 6 5 5 4 4
Quad R9/C3/16 Meson Cannon Turret (4x4)    Range 90,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 24-12     RM 9    ROF 10        1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0
Laser Targeting Computer S06 96-8000 (1)    Max Range: 192,000 km   TS: 8000 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Beam Targeting Computer S06 48-16000 (2)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
Magnetic Confinement Fusion Reactor S.5 (15)     Total Power Output 75    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Missile Detection Processor MR2-R1 (1)     GPS 32     Range 2.6m km    MCR 279k km    Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor MR25-R100 (1)     GPS 5000     Range 25.0m km    Resolution 100

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Thank you.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 04:48:42 PM by Stardust »
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2014, 06:04:11 PM »
Almost double efficiency, nice.
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Offline Stardust (OP)

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2014, 11:55:29 AM »
Almost double efficiency, nice.

Thanks.

The new engine design mechanics add a lot of flexibility.  Iranon's treatise on fuel/engine weight ratio is a good read (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,6762.0.html).  I've added a tab to my Aurora spreadsheet so that I don't drive my engineers crazy.  I understand that researching new propulsion concepts is more rewarding than tweaking power modifiers.

Does it bother anyone else that there's no distinction between science and engineering in Aurora?
 

Iranon

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2014, 01:39:05 PM »
Thanks for the kind words, but byron deserves a lot more credit there than I do. He had this mostly solved before I even looked into it, and greatly helped me understand the trade-offs for cases where we want efficiency as well as raw performance.

t's easy to shoot ourselves in the foot with overly stressed engines. We should also look hard whether fuel efficiency is worth the RP - that line needs to be judged against a higher concept and lower power multiplier.
Another thing to keep in mind: build cost scales linearly with power for engines of 1.00 power multiplier and above, below that it scales quadratically with the power multiplier.

*

Lack of division between science and engineering doesn't bother me much, although I suppose we could have that as its own speciality field.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2014, 05:16:46 AM »
I see two primary weaknesses of this design.

first is range.  Given the tech level of your other components, 192kkm beam range is rather short.  A 256kkm fire control is within your reach, although this could easily be handled via a refit.

Second is dat MSP. The damn thing might break on the way to its assigned sector or on the way back.  I would sacrifice an armor layer or some of the fuel to add additional engineering spaces.
 

Iranon

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Re: Beams only
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2014, 04:46:02 PM »
Still not convinced about that weaponry, not just the FC aspects.
Using 4x4 Meson Cannons 'mostly for point defence' is suspect when Railguns are so efficient on a moderately fast ship. Little or no additional research is required, and volume of fire instead of high tracking speed means we don't need sophisticated fire controls to be effective.

4x4 Meson Cannons make more sense as general purpose weapons - only mediocre point defence, but reliable damage dealers. But that's tricky too, as then we need to consider synergy with our long-ranged weapons.
If someone crosses into Meson Range, our firepower is split between medium-sized lasers that'll scratch the paint badly but can't be expected to burn through defences in a single shot, and peashooters that ignore defences.
This is wasteful. Equal-sized laser turrets would take better advantage of existing armour damage, and have considerably longer range so we could slave them to the long-range fire control for enhanced capabilities at range. Since unturreted and turreted guns are only one size apart and the larger cannons have the same RoF with your capacitor tech, unifying everything including fire control would be better still.

Getting truly long range with Mesons is expensive and we don't gain damage potential in the bargain. Fitting lasers to a primarily-Meson ship for cheap shots is fine in principle, but I struggle to find an implementation that wouldn't be better as something else.
I see the main appeal of Mesons mainly for things other than mainline combat vessels: fighters, fast snipers (especially against certain spoilers), support for boarding actions, PDCs where other beam weapons would be ineffective...

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Whether the MSP situation is a problem depends on many details... as it is, it seems a serious limitation but not an unreasonable one given the intended use.