Author Topic: Too many jump points?  (Read 10776 times)

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Offline Maltay

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2015, 02:57:38 AM »
I would be interested in an option to force a star system, maybe only the starting star system, to have a larger number of JPs.  Specifically to accommodate multi-faction starts in a single star system.
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2015, 03:16:02 AM »
I would be interested in an option to force a star system, maybe only the starting star system, to have a larger number of JPs.  Specifically to accommodate multi-faction starts in a single star system.

You can set the number of JPs in Sol during game creation. You can also use Add JP in SM Mode to create additional JPs in any system.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2015, 07:03:13 AM »
This is looking very good to me. There is just one small thing I'd like to add: with this and the significant increase in useless systems (due to your inclusion of massive amounts of brown dwarfs few patches back) you may want to rethink civilian shipping distances. Currently, if my memory serves, a civilian vessel will look for a destination only four jumps away, which is a little short at the moment, at least in my opinion. But that's just a small issue.

Since the limit is due to algorithmic complexity, this could partially be solved by considering all the systems along a warp chain of systems with only 2 WP each to be the "same" system for purposes of route planning.  Or this might come naturally out of the algorithm.

This has the downside that if another jump point appears in a chain (e.g. from a closed jump point), then your civie "trade route" can disappear.

One way to avoid this:  allow players to specify multi-system warp chain "trade routes" (as a list of systems) that Aurora would use as "1-hop connections" when calculating routes.  Then such a 2-jump chain could be specified as a trade route and even if it were broken the civies wouldn't get confused.

John
 

Offline Prince of Space

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2015, 08:41:53 PM »
Another mechanical consequence for trimming down jump points is the value of Sector Commands. They aren't cheap, and extending their influence to further and further systems requires exponentially higher numbers of them. If the average number of jump points is reduced, so is the return on investment for SecComs. I don't necessarily object to this revaluation, but it bears mentioning.
 

Offline xeryon

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2015, 08:42:29 AM »
Deviation from the original topic a little bit, but I guess in the same vein.  Longer and longer chains of systems with higher quantities of them now being barren dwarf systems is going to make civilian shipping a bit less productive.  The idea of designating shipping lanes for civilians to use (that are capped due to propulsion range and not the number of jumps) would be amazing.
 

Offline Rich.h

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2015, 10:44:39 AM »
Deviation from the original topic a little bit, but I guess in the same vein.  Longer and longer chains of systems with higher quantities of them now being barren dwarf systems is going to make civilian shipping a bit less productive.  The idea of designating shipping lanes for civilians to use (that are capped due to propulsion range and not the number of jumps) would be amazing.

Doesn't SM mode already allow you to add new JP's in systems with a choice on where they lead? Rather than complex coding you can simply add in a bypass that offers a short cut and call it a civillian highway etc.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2015, 12:59:12 PM »
another option would be the creation of civilian transshipment stations, with the capability of organically acting as a trade waypoint by virtue of stockpiling excess goods.
 

Offline xeryon

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2015, 02:42:12 PM »
Doesn't SM mode already allow you to add new JP's in systems with a choice on where they lead? Rather than complex coding you can simply add in a bypass that offers a short cut and call it a civillian highway etc.

In theory that would function but it is an awfully ugly solution and would produce lots of unintended side effects.  One of them being computer controlled craft using that same JP.  By using that method to work around the 4 jump limit to make a civilian highway between an outlying colony and your home system you have also just created an open backdoor for a hostile craft to jump right into your home system.

Making some sort of civilian way-point or designating two points as being a defined trade route would be a much smoother solution and allow for substantially spread out empires to still be functional.  With the current system generation setup and a new less-jp generation rate I can envision universes being generated where I might need to make more jumps than civilians can navigate before finding suitable colonizing real estate. This wouldn't be a huge problem but there is a lack of support for deep space stations that civilians can interact with.  If there was a functioning mechanic where I could build a station 2 jumps out and have it be a place that could grow enough to found it's own shipping lines out of that station it could work.
 

Offline Bryan Swartz

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2015, 05:47:26 PM »
The civilian shipping is a whole other issue, but I'd like to see it less productive as I think it's way too productive as it is.  I realize that this is really a matter of taste concept. 
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2015, 11:07:29 PM »
The issues surrounding shipping line wealth generation are complex, but the really out of control wealth generation mostly revolves around extremely short turn-around runs like Earth-Luna or Earth-Mars. I don't believe long range trade routes to be a particular issue in that regard.

 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2015, 12:51:41 PM »
The issues surrounding shipping line wealth generation are complex, but the really out of control wealth generation mostly revolves around extremely short turn-around runs like Earth-Luna or Earth-Mars. I don't believe long range trade routes to be a particular issue in that regard.

Yes, I agree. I might reduce the benefit of in-system runs. Need to look at it in more detail.
 

Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2015, 07:31:54 PM »
I thought about that there could be some sort of timer to a civil ship (or just a note that specifies when it was loaded). With this it could be introduced that a ship's contents are worth more the longer it stayed underway, thus naturally creating fairness between long and short distance trade. It also makes sense from the realistic perspective, as goods from distant worlds should be more rare exactly because of the more costly shipment, thus increasing in value. Faster ships would reduce the prices later on, just as it goes when logistic becomes easier, more competitive and wares more readily available.(bananas were exotic once too)
An alternative (or upgrade) could be to just start counting the fuel that a ship would have lost by transporting the goods, if that is even in the realm of possibilities for civilians. The result of that would however be even more logical to be a base of pricing, and would only drop prices with fuel efficiency tech or larger engines(/ships) of course. ...It would also be more calculation I presume. The first method would only make a time stamp on loading, and then do the 1 calculation on unload to determine final value of goods by comparing to the time passed 'now vs. time stamp'.

However, a system like this would just make the returns more fair, but solving how civilians even decide on trade routes is another and surely more complicated issue.
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Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2015, 12:02:21 PM »
Yes, I agree. I might reduce the benefit of in-system runs. Need to look at it in more detail.

The root cause is a constant reward regardless of distance. IMO the only way to fix it properly is to scale traderoute income with distance * cargo.

The reason you want to use distance rather then time is because this gives an advantage to fast new designs. In reality a shorter traveltime would rather cost an extra premium, not the other way around.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2015, 08:08:09 AM »
The root cause is a constant reward regardless of distance. IMO the only way to fix it properly is to scale traderoute income with distance * cargo.

The reason you want to use distance rather then time is because this gives an advantage to fast new designs. In reality a shorter traveltime would rather cost an extra premium, not the other way around.

And the revenue (or score) should probably prefer longer trips, i.e be faster than "proportional to".  In "reality" this would show up in load/unload time, i.e. revenue = rate*distance - fixed_cost_per_trip_due_load_unload.  In practice (game mechanics) it would probably be easier to scale with a soft exponent, e.g. revenue - rate*distance^(1.1).  The former would severely impact the current revenue from the earth/mars run; the latter would simply prefer longer routes.

John
 

Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Too many jump points?
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2015, 02:03:45 PM »
The root cause is a constant reward regardless of distance. IMO the only way to fix it properly is to scale traderoute income with distance * cargo.

The reason you want to use distance rather then time is because this gives an advantage to fast new designs. In reality a shorter traveltime would rather cost an extra premium, not the other way around.
I thought about distance instead of time or fuel as well, but aside from being surely more difficult to determine in a system where civils already are the calculation hog nr.1 already, I dismissed the idea because distance is an illusionary since relative price factor.
I see it like this: 200 years ago, shipping some nice clothes or sweets that you wanted from US to Europe would have cost a lot, and they would still arrive slowly. Shipping technology advanced beyond the sail eventually, and transportation cost went down.(of course as secondary factor also due to tighter logistic networks) However, we can of course still get a fast delivery for more money (like airmail), but is that really because of technology advance? No, not really, still more or less same fossil ovens, yet it costs more because of the less efficient transportation (fuel/energy expense per weight unit) or having to act outside of established supply lines.(personal taxi at 10 is more expensive than 9 O'clock train)
If technology were to advance to give us say personal around-the-world jet/vtol drone delivery with a cheap as hell He3 fusion motor, transportation cost would not go up, but instead shrink even further. In an eventual extreme, a star trek transporter system would probably cost you a stamp mark worth of electricity in the end.(..and this is true even if we had it between planets and stars)

So the point is that, yes, within the realm of your current technology level faster transportation will cost extra, as a faster "ship" or whatever will use less efficient engines, or you need to charter(or build in aurora) a special clipper for an outside of routine job.
Space and distance are relative though, and if your means to get around become more efficient (and at the same time sometimes faster), the expenses of shipping fall down as well, so as long as there is competition on the market, that will push providers to attract with lower prices eventually, if not immediately.( as a "sell-point" of the new technology for example. the flyPhone! faster than your old hauler and microwave oven combined, and can be located via galactic-positioning-system at all times!)
Faster transportation technology virtually 'shrinks' the world around you, and with that all kind of things happen:
1 - highest possible delay of ware supply decreasing (mitigating the "readiness" price component of rare wares)
2 - better reaction time ensures that business can make more secure deals (reducing the "risk" price component. Risk is not really pirates, but actually more inherent long term investment danger since long delays between request and delivery might mean you will be beaten to it. What you do is usually you factor in some sort of self insurance each time, - otherwise you are just gambling on your luck.)
3 - if it is also more fuel efficient, you might actually save on energy, which is probably the base factor to the whole transport cost equation
? - ...possibly more things I can't think of right now

So in some cases the 3rd point's price increase (less efficient engine) might override the advantage of the two speed advantages, which creates these fast "taxis" that might be situationally useful at some point, but wont evolutionary survive on the mainstream market.
An advance in technology is therefore made if that doesn't happen, so if you get at least a price of d1+d2+d3<0, you have found a cheaper way to do it despite being faster.
...Which means the economic returns of transportation tax go down as technology advances. :P


...Consequently also meaning that time and fuel are the actual influencing factors, as distance is only a influence, but what really counts is how fast+cheap you can cross it.
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