Author Topic: Designing ship hulls instead of ships  (Read 4233 times)

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Offline Tree

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2017, 03:54:47 AM »
I still don't see how there'd be any difference with the current Refit button. I can upgrade only engines just fine, or copy a design and replace the guns just fine already, or copy my colony ships and make the newly created a variant a cargo ship.

how unsatisfying designing a ship actually is.
That's like, your opinion, man. Designing ships yourself is one of the best parts of Aurora.
 

Offline obsidian_green

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2017, 07:44:08 PM »
I still don't see how there'd be any difference with the current Refit button. I can upgrade only engines just fine, or copy a design and replace the guns just fine already, or copy my colony ships and make the newly created a variant a cargo ship.

I think several of us are talking about the "additional eligible classes" we can build (we find them on the DAC tab of class design window) when a shipyard is tooled for a specific ship class. Counter-intuitively we can't really design a stripped-down basic frame and build variations from it at added cost.
 

Offline El Pip

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2017, 02:10:01 AM »
Counter-intuitively we can't really design a stripped-down basic frame and build variations from it at added cost.
You can't do that, but you can produce an over-designed frame and then build variants of it at standard cost - I had a ~4kt hull full of grav and geo sensors that I used to build 3.5kt grav specific or geo specific survey ships.

Personally I prefer that approach, you take the cost/time hit upfront in getting the shipyard re-tooled but can then churn out ships at standard cost. Feels more accurate to me, you would need lots of additional tooling and so on at the yard to produce all those variants, but the cost of the ship wouldn't actually change.
 

Offline Tree

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2017, 03:33:34 AM »
I think several of us are talking about the "additional eligible classes" we can build (we find them on the DAC tab of class design window) when a shipyard is tooled for a specific ship class. Counter-intuitively we can't really design a stripped-down basic frame and build variations from it at added cost.
I think the "if two ships are similar enough, you can build both in the same yard" is plenty intuitive already. Plus yards are clearly specialized by class, makes sense you wouldn't be able to build wildly different ships from just one unless both ships were designed for that from the beginning, making them effectively variants of one another. Which means the game already handles what the OP wanted.
 

Offline obsidian_green

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2017, 01:00:36 AM »
You can't do that, but you can produce an over-designed frame and then build variants of it at standard cost - I had a ~4kt hull full of grav and geo sensors that I used to build 3.5kt grav specific or geo specific survey ships.

Yeah that's true, but I haven't found it as easy to plan ahead with the current setup. Sometimes we're building those shipyards in advance of the designs. I also have a resistance to designing a ship I know I won't build just so I can get a multipurpose shipyard out of the deal. That may just be a hang up I should get over; the rationale you give makes a lot of sense.

I think the "if two ships are similar enough, you can build both in the same yard" is plenty intuitive already. Plus yards are clearly specialized by class, makes sense you wouldn't be able to build wildly different ships from just one unless both ships were designed for that from the beginning, making them effectively variants of one another. Which means the game already handles what the OP wanted.

I'm not a supporter of what the OP wanted and agree that the game already handles it. A lot of the previous posts were about additional eligible classes, so I (probably mistakenly) thought you were addressing that. I'd prefer the mechanics behind that were tweaked along lines I and some other posters suggested, not that stock hulls should be a game feature. I love the way ship design current works.
 

Offline El Pip

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2017, 01:35:54 AM »
I also have a resistance to designing a ship I know I won't build just so I can get a multipurpose shipyard out of the deal. That may just be a hang up I should get over; the rationale you give makes a lot of sense.
I somewhat understand that issue, so I make it explicit and give the first design name like "32kT Basic Hull" and make them utterly impractical as useable ships.

My RP thinking is that the it's not designing a ship, it's designing a basic hull/frame and tooling the shipyard for that. That's why I'm not opposed to the idea of designing hulls, I just think we already have a perfectly good mechanism for doing that already.
 

Offline Drgong

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2018, 03:52:42 PM »
I somewhat understand that issue, so I make it explicit and give the first design name like "32kT Basic Hull" and make them utterly impractical as useable ships.

My RP thinking is that the it's not designing a ship, it's designing a basic hull/frame and tooling the shipyard for that. That's why I'm not opposed to the idea of designing hulls, I just think we already have a perfectly good mechanism for doing that already.

I agree on this.  Also I like the idea that sometimes a hull design or concept has reached it max and it time to rotate them with new ideas.   

(And now I will be tempted to name one of the templates a "F-body" just for giggles.) 
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Offline Iranon

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2018, 09:12:17 PM »
My problem with placeholder hulls to get an advantage in the current system is that taking it to the logical conclusion eliminates retooling entirely.
Retool to the most expensive thing you can build, usually fitting only (hardened?) sensors/fire controls, and you should be able to use it for any practical design forever.
 

Offline Drgong

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2018, 06:25:39 PM »
My problem with placeholder hulls to get an advantage in the current system is that taking it to the logical conclusion eliminates retooling entirely.
Retool to the most expensive thing you can build, usually fitting only (hardened?) sensors/fire controls, and you should be able to use it for any practical design forever.

But in game that concept breaks rather quickly in practice as you will end up needing something else. 
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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2018, 01:41:11 AM »
You could possibly balance it by making people pay a lot in minerals to build a modular hull slot (IE a 200 ton sensor slot) in order to make specialized ship designs potentially much more affordable but less flexible in the long term.

e:  You could imagine the slots being comparable in cost to the systems themselves, so more or less you pay double cost but potentially get long term gains if that ship survives to be retrofitted multiple times.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2018, 03:03:39 AM »
I recommend not abusing it even though you can. Aurora isn't sturdy enough for that.
 

Offline TMaekler

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2018, 03:59:11 AM »
Interesting concept and idea. Let me throw in my 2 cents... or a little more  :)

How about changing the system of "shipyards" into a two component system:
a) slipways (assembly lines)
b) construction areas

Every shipyard can have one or more slipways, even of different sizes (2x15.000t; 1x20.000t; 1x30.000t). Additionally to this every shipyard can have multiple construction areas where the individual components of the ships are constructed and then given to the respective assembly line (slipway) where it is assembled into the ship.

By this the slipways become independent of what ship can be constructed in it (only the size of the slipway limits the biggest type which could be assembled/refit/scrapped/repaired there). The necessary components for the ship will be constructed in the separate construction areas. And if new technology is researched only new construction areas need to be build for the shipyard to be able to assemble new ship designs (and no longer is there need for a complete refit).
If you want to speed up the construction of new ships multiple assembly areas of one type can be created in one shipyard which then would be used for parallel assembly.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2018, 12:29:52 PM »
That could potentially be really fun.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2018, 02:46:32 AM »
IIRC Steve's talked about a system where slipways and slip size are convertible.  I thought it was in Newtonian Aurora but i couldn't find the post.
 

Offline hostergaard

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Re: Designing ship hulls instead of ships
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2018, 09:22:48 AM »
So another aspect of making the ship design more modular and designing ship hulls which you can later add components on (a bit like you can fit different missiles in the same launcher) is that it could allow you to also temporarily refit the ship for a specific mision profile.

Say you have a big carrier with a huge hangar space. You need a ship with a huge sensor array to go check something stat, you don't have time, or maybe resources to build a new ship, but you just so happen to have a very large sensor laying around. So you stuff it in the hangar space, maybe with some extra generators and hook it all up. Presto! You got yourself a temporary listening ship. It far less efficient as purpose built ship in terms of sensor strengt to hull strengt as you are kinda have to make it fit into a space it was not made for. But hey, you got something that works in a pinch.

This would allow for more tactical options, interesting retrofitted pirate ship or other people and organisations engaging using haphazard ships as need be. Or just spyops where you can disguise your ships, like stuffing a hangar in a transporter or whatever to surprise your enemies.
 

 

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