Posted by: TheDeadlyShoe
« on: September 20, 2012, 05:57:06 PM »Increasing beyond 2mkm could result in fast enemy targets outrunning the submunitions :|
Posted by: Brian Neumann
« on: September 16, 2012, 08:31:22 AM »The release range on your minuteman IV is to short. Most amm setups can engage incomming out to at least 2m km. As your exocet B have a range of 3.7m km why don't you change the release range to 3m km. This will give you a much better chance of having the second stage release before the first stage is shot down.
Good Luck
Brian
Good Luck
Brian
Posted by: tryrar
« on: September 16, 2012, 05:23:48 AM »Looks good to me. I particularly like the size of the Exocet. It's small and can cause second layer damage.
Heh, thank you. I realized that going with my all up shipkillers for this design was rather counterproductive, as that added too much bulk. As well as being the munitions for booster missiles and mines, I plan for the Exocet to be my standard fighter and FAC-launched missile, though I might step it down a little to eek out a bit more range on gen 3(I was thinking somewhere around 5m kilometers). Speaking of which, here's the gen 2 design(haven't produced any yet, but just got this finalized)
Minuteman IV ISBM:
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 10 MSP (0.5 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 5
Speed: 24000 km/s Endurance: 208 minutes Range: 300.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 8.075
Second Stage: Exocet B Mini-ASM x2
Second Stage Separation Range: 1,000,000 km
Overall Endurance: 4 hours Overall Range: 303.7m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 120% 3k km/s 40% 5k km/s 24% 10k km/s 12%
Materials Required: 2x Tritanium 6.05x Gallicite Fuel x2500Exocet B Mini-ASM:
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 2 MSP (0.1 HS) Warhead: 4 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 22
Speed: 24000 km/s Endurance: 3 minutes Range: 3.7m km
Cost Per Missile: 2.1
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 528% 3k km/s 176% 5k km/s 105.6% 10k km/s 52.8%
Materials Required: 1x Tritanium 1.15x Gallicite Fuel x62.5
The major changes were doubling missile agility tech, and getting slightly smaller warheads, as well as finally getting ion drone engines; which REALLY helps with flight time, as well as making this harder to hit overall.
Posted by: Theokrat
« on: September 16, 2012, 04:40:35 AM »Well, that game petered out after 100 years of nothing interesting happening(like, AT ALL), so here's the planetary defense missile from my current game:
Minuteman III ISBMCode: [Select]Missile Size: 10 MSP (0.5 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 5
Speed: 10000 km/s Endurance: 500 minutes Range: 300.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 5.1917
Second Stage: Exocet Mini-ASM x2
Second Stage Separation Range: 1000 km
Overall Endurance: 8 hours Overall Range: 303.8m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 50% 3k km/s 15% 5k km/s 10% 10k km/s 5%
Materials Required: 2x Tritanium 2.7667x Gallicite Fuel x2500
And the warheads:
Exocet Mini-ASM:Code: [Select]Missile Size: 2 MSP (0.1 HS) Warhead: 4 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 14
Speed: 21700 km/s Endurance: 3 minutes Range: 3.7m km
Cost Per Missile: 1.825
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 303.8% 3k km/s 98% 5k km/s 60.8% 10k km/s 30.4%
Materials Required: 1x Tritanium 0.675x Gallicite Fuel x62.5
As a note, this is pretty much gen 1, all with pretty basic missile and drone tech(I don't even have pulse drone engines!), so all I want is critique on the basic package
Looks good to me. I particularly like the size of the Exocet. It's small and can cause second layer damage.
Posted by: tryrar
« on: September 15, 2012, 11:00:29 PM »Well, that game petered out after 100 years of nothing interesting happening(like, AT ALL), so here's the planetary defense missile from my current game:
Minuteman III ISBM
And the warheads:
Exocet Mini-ASM:
As a note, this is pretty much gen 1, all with pretty basic missile and drone tech(I don't even have pulse drone engines!), so all I want is critique on the basic package
Minuteman III ISBM
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 10 MSP (0.5 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 5
Speed: 10000 km/s Endurance: 500 minutes Range: 300.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 5.1917
Second Stage: Exocet Mini-ASM x2
Second Stage Separation Range: 1000 km
Overall Endurance: 8 hours Overall Range: 303.8m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 50% 3k km/s 15% 5k km/s 10% 10k km/s 5%
Materials Required: 2x Tritanium 2.7667x Gallicite Fuel x2500
And the warheads:
Exocet Mini-ASM:
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 2 MSP (0.1 HS) Warhead: 4 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 14
Speed: 21700 km/s Endurance: 3 minutes Range: 3.7m km
Cost Per Missile: 1.825
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 303.8% 3k km/s 98% 5k km/s 60.8% 10k km/s 30.4%
Materials Required: 1x Tritanium 0.675x Gallicite Fuel x62.5As a note, this is pretty much gen 1, all with pretty basic missile and drone tech(I don't even have pulse drone engines!), so all I want is critique on the basic package
Posted by: Theokrat
« on: September 14, 2012, 11:11:00 AM »I would like to point out that the most efficient way to deal with the the AMM concerns is to use a smaller first stage missile carrying only one less second stage missiles.
For now (5.6) there is no reason to use a size-26 missiles to carry four submunitions. You could just as well use two size-13 missiles to carry two submunitions each.
Both of these alternatives have exactly the same costs (minerals, manufacturing, required tonnage) and the same characteristics (speed, range, warhead), but the second alternative is much harder to spot on active sensors (it will only be spotted at 42% of the range), and there will be twice as many target for enemy AMMs to address.
This is on top of other benefits, like reduced reload rate, reduced research costs, and more flexibility in engaging multiple targets or finishing off stranglers.
So if the first stage does not have any sensors, it is usually more efficient to use a single second stage on each (individually smaller) bus.
For now (5.6) there is no reason to use a size-26 missiles to carry four submunitions. You could just as well use two size-13 missiles to carry two submunitions each.
Both of these alternatives have exactly the same costs (minerals, manufacturing, required tonnage) and the same characteristics (speed, range, warhead), but the second alternative is much harder to spot on active sensors (it will only be spotted at 42% of the range), and there will be twice as many target for enemy AMMs to address.
This is on top of other benefits, like reduced reload rate, reduced research costs, and more flexibility in engaging multiple targets or finishing off stranglers.
So if the first stage does not have any sensors, it is usually more efficient to use a single second stage on each (individually smaller) bus.
Posted by: Rabid_Cog
« on: September 14, 2012, 10:07:57 AM »Just so you know, you don't NEED onboard sensors for MIRV missiles, as long as your firecontrol and active sensor has enough range. The secondary missiles just inherit the targets and firecontrol of the carrier missile. Also, just because a carrier launches its submunitions, doesn't mean it is destroyed. The carrier will also keep going until it hits the target, even if it has no warhead (does 0 damage).
Posted by: HaliRyan
« on: September 13, 2012, 10:33:42 PM »Ok, taking everything into account, here's the new designs:
Minuteman III Mod-IICode: [Select]Missile Size: 29.527 MSP (1.47635 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 5
Speed: 10800 km/s Endurance: 849 minutes Range: 550.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 24.1083
Second Stage: Apollo B Mod-II Guided ASM x4
Second Stage Separation Range: 500,000 km
Overall Endurance: 14 hours Overall Range: 579.2m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 54% 3k km/s 15% 5k km/s 10.8% 10k km/s 5.4%
Materials Required: 4x Tritanium 3.2x Uridium 17.6833x Gallicite Fuel x11317.5
I reduced overall range a little, as well as putting in a sane seperation range. I also bit the bullet and upped the size of the apollo Bs to fit in a decent sensor:
Apollo B Mod-IICode: [Select]Speed: 33600 km/s Endurance: 14 minutes Range: 28.8m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.8 Sensitivity Modifier: 80%
Resolution: 100 Maximum Range vs 5000 ton object (or larger): 640,000 km
Cost Per Missile: 4.725
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 504% 3k km/s 165% 5k km/s 100.8% 10k km/s 50.4%
Materials Required: 1x Tritanium 0.8x Uridium 3.15x Gallicite Fuel x1000
So, what you guys think?
I think you'll want a much longer separation range on the booster stage, reason being that it's so large a decent AMM sensor will spot it quite a way out and with a 500k km separation range it may get intercepted by said enemy AMMs before it can release. I'd go for something closer to 10 kk km personally.
I'd also redesign the second stage munitions a bit as their current range is vastly more than they need. I'd reduce their fuel to give them a range of roughly 150% their separation distance, and ditch any armor/ecm on them in favour of making them as small as possible to fit more of them onto the minuteman stage.
Last thing is I'd make sure the main stage is an even MSP integer by adding fuel. No reason to waste launcher space!
Posted by: niflheimr
« on: September 13, 2012, 09:54:18 PM »Here's on of the missiles I use against the pesky low-level spoilers in the current game :
The warhead has level 1 ECM and 0. 5 units of armor - just enough to give it a chance to survive one or two missiles , a 4d warhead and 200k KM active sensor range . So far I haven't run into problems like not finding its target , even though the target moved towards me - it's probable it will still take targets from the firecontrol since it hit the same target as the carrier drone.
With 44k kmps speed ( 54 on the MK II missile , but I dont have it researched ) the enemy cannot move far enough during those 3 minutes to get outside range - and it will hit most enemies with close to 100% chance .
It's still hard to saturate the PD with them though - I use a few variants with different speeds for time-on-target missions , coupled with internal launchers and box launcher pods ( tractor the pods , fire , get them in the hangar to reload one at a time)
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 10 MSP (0.5 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 5
Speed: 40000 km/s Endurance: 135 minutes Range: 324.0m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.18 Sensitivity Modifier: 180%
Resolution: 120 Maximum Range vs 6000 ton object (or larger): 350,000 km
Cost Per Missile: 11.2907
Second Stage: S4 SFAM 44.4k/9m/3min 71% x1
Second Stage Separation Range: 6,000,000 km
Overall Endurance: 2 hours Overall Range: 332.9m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 200% 3k km/s 65% 5k km/s 40% 10k km/s 20%The warhead has level 1 ECM and 0. 5 units of armor - just enough to give it a chance to survive one or two missiles , a 4d warhead and 200k KM active sensor range . So far I haven't run into problems like not finding its target , even though the target moved towards me - it's probable it will still take targets from the firecontrol since it hit the same target as the carrier drone.
With 44k kmps speed ( 54 on the MK II missile , but I dont have it researched ) the enemy cannot move far enough during those 3 minutes to get outside range - and it will hit most enemies with close to 100% chance .
It's still hard to saturate the PD with them though - I use a few variants with different speeds for time-on-target missions , coupled with internal launchers and box launcher pods ( tractor the pods , fire , get them in the hangar to reload one at a time)
Posted by: tryrar
« on: September 13, 2012, 08:22:25 PM »Yeah, you can tell my only experience with second stage missiles is messing around with mines, huh? 
And that is NOT what I'm trying to do here; I'm trying to make a viable very long range planet-launched missile that will devastate anything that might attack me(especially when launched two at a time from 20 PDCs). I'm currently working on getting better missile and sensor tech right now, so I'll hold off on making any more mods until I get them done. However, can you guys post some examples so I can see what makes a good Anti-ship MIRV missile?
And that is NOT what I'm trying to do here; I'm trying to make a viable very long range planet-launched missile that will devastate anything that might attack me(especially when launched two at a time from 20 PDCs). I'm currently working on getting better missile and sensor tech right now, so I'll hold off on making any more mods until I get them done. However, can you guys post some examples so I can see what makes a good Anti-ship MIRV missile?Posted by: sublight
« on: September 13, 2012, 08:11:06 PM »The Minuteman currently resembles a self-propelled half-day duration mine. If that was the intent, it looks great. Otherwise I'd agree that it's functional, but extremely vulnerable to AMM fire. While one solution would be to increase separation range up to millions of km, that approach would probably require investing in advanced active-sensor scout-craft spotters plus a crazy large ultra-long ranged fire-con on the PDC. If the target control has a long enough range then I think sensors on the missiles become unnecessary.
Alternatively, you could slap two or three levels of armor onto the Minuteman to harden them against AMM fire. To make room for the armor consider dumping fuel off of the Apollo B. The submunitions really only need a range of twice the separation distance at most. Call it 2m km to be extra generous. 28m km is pure overkill for 0.5m km seperation. If reducing Apollo fuel doesn't provide enough room for Minuteman armor, then reduce the payload down to 3x submunitions. You might consider reducing the submunition count anyway to make the minuteman faster.
Alternatively, you could slap two or three levels of armor onto the Minuteman to harden them against AMM fire. To make room for the armor consider dumping fuel off of the Apollo B. The submunitions really only need a range of twice the separation distance at most. Call it 2m km to be extra generous. 28m km is pure overkill for 0.5m km seperation. If reducing Apollo fuel doesn't provide enough room for Minuteman armor, then reduce the payload down to 3x submunitions. You might consider reducing the submunition count anyway to make the minuteman faster.
Posted by: Havear
« on: September 13, 2012, 07:18:22 PM »I'd reduce the range on the Minuteman to maybe 300 klicks and increase the separation range on the Apollos to 10 million klicks. Actually I'd probably up the separation range to 15, but all things considered I don't think you'll have to worry about AM fire *that* far out unless you're facing Invaders. Your biggest issue with that small of a separation range will be AMM fire from the target. Even a crude AMM can reach 2 million klicks easy.
Posted by: tryrar
« on: September 13, 2012, 05:45:03 PM »Ok, taking everything into account, here's the new designs:
Minuteman III Mod-II
I reduced overall range a little, as well as putting in a sane seperation range. I also bit the bullet and upped the size of the apollo Bs to fit in a decent sensor:
Apollo B Mod-II
So, what you guys think?
Minuteman III Mod-II
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 29.527 MSP (1.47635 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 5
Speed: 10800 km/s Endurance: 849 minutes Range: 550.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 24.1083
Second Stage: Apollo B Mod-II Guided ASM x4
Second Stage Separation Range: 500,000 km
Overall Endurance: 14 hours Overall Range: 579.2m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 54% 3k km/s 15% 5k km/s 10.8% 10k km/s 5.4%
Materials Required: 4x Tritanium 3.2x Uridium 17.6833x Gallicite Fuel x11317.5I reduced overall range a little, as well as putting in a sane seperation range. I also bit the bullet and upped the size of the apollo Bs to fit in a decent sensor:
Apollo B Mod-II
Code: [Select]
Speed: 33600 km/s Endurance: 14 minutes Range: 28.8m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.8 Sensitivity Modifier: 80%
Resolution: 100 Maximum Range vs 5000 ton object (or larger): 640,000 km
Cost Per Missile: 4.725
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 504% 3k km/s 165% 5k km/s 100.8% 10k km/s 50.4%
Materials Required: 1x Tritanium 0.8x Uridium 3.15x Gallicite Fuel x1000So, what you guys think?
Posted by: Shooer
« on: September 13, 2012, 02:10:20 PM »Quote from: Zook link=topic=5326. msg54627#msg54627 date=1347562076
By the way, can you build three-stage missiles?Yes. You can add only one second stage to a design, but that can have it's own second stage, and that one can have it's own second stage, and that one can have it's own second stage.
To the OP I would reduce the separation range. If the target is moving away from the missiles your second stage will run out of fuel before hitting. It's a error I did with my first MIRV as well, they were only good for taking out PDCs and shipping. (To be fair they were only used on cloaked siege ships)
Posted by: Erik L
« on: September 13, 2012, 02:06:27 PM »So, You say I should cut the range down? Ok, by how much? (I was using a max-size active sensor for my C&C PDC, so that's why I had that much range).
Optimally, right around the sensor range of your submunitions. It also depends on if you are in a chase battle or a closing battle. For closing you can have a higher separation. For a chase, you'd want lower.
