Author Topic: v2.0.0 Changes Discussion Thread  (Read 125525 times)

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Offline Elminster

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #270 on: August 19, 2021, 07:39:20 AM »
If you terraform to the middle of the human tolerance range (which I am trying to do now), the planet will move between -18C and 46C during its orbit, exceeding human tolerance by 8 degrees at either end of the range, which makes it very interesting from a roleplay/story perspective.
Also don't forget that, at some point, Gene Manipulation comes into play.  ;)
 

Offline AlStar

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #271 on: August 19, 2021, 08:30:28 AM »
Are populations smart enough to remember to continue to build themselves infrastructure during the good times, knowing that the planet will become inhospitable?
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #272 on: August 19, 2021, 08:33:08 AM »
Performance doesn't seem to be suffering so far. I've just started a new campaign though, so I will see how it goes once there are a lot of systems in play. Besides, this is an optional change.

I just checked my current campaign. At the moment there are 21 systems with a total of 2876 system bodies, of which 509 have eccentric orbits and 582 more are moons of bodies with eccentric orbits. Those 1091 bodies are being updated during orbital movement as if they were being terraformed. Orbital movement is currently taking 0.01 seconds. I'll keep an eye on it as the number of systems increases.

EDIT: Looks like above was unusual. I checked twice more and it was less than 0.003 seconds each time.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 09:54:38 AM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #273 on: August 19, 2021, 08:34:11 AM »
Are populations smart enough to remember to continue to build themselves infrastructure during the good times, knowing that the planet will become inhospitable?

Yes, infrastructure is based on max colony cost, not current.
 
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Offline ArcWolf

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #274 on: August 22, 2021, 07:02:45 PM »

Hmm. If I understand you correctly, you are positing the existence of an entire class of people who both play Aurora but also don’t remember the orbital elements from middle–school? That’s crazy talk.



I went to Uni for Physics and studied astronomy, and the reason i know what i do about orbital mechanics is because of Kerbal Space Program...
 
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Offline MarcAFK

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #275 on: August 23, 2021, 12:30:52 AM »
Maybe update the title of the thread , something like V1.14.0 (now V2.0 ) etc thread.
" Why is this godforsaken hellhole worth dying for? "
". . .  We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like.  But we can assume this.  They stand for everything we don't stand for.  Also they told me you guys look like dorks. "
"Stop exploding, you cowards.  "
 

Offline LiquidGold2

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #276 on: August 23, 2021, 02:48:27 PM »
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=12524. msg154589#msg154589 date=1629371292
Quote from: Desdinova link=topic=12524. msg154582#msg154582 date=1629312448
Would it make more sense to calculate the average colony cost for elliptical orbits? It just seems like there's a lot of extra calculations with the new eccentricity system that could lead to a serious performance hit.

Performance doesn't seem to be suffering so far.  I've just started a new campaign though, so I will see how it goes once there are a lot of systems in play.  Besides, this is an optional change.

As someone else replied, the object of the change is to create interesting scenarios for colonies.  I've already found a couple of terrestrial worlds with temperature ranges that are so wide that you cannot terraform them to ideal, but you can bring the colony cost to a fairly low amount.  The planet I am currently terraforming has a 64 degree difference.  If you terraform to the middle of the human tolerance range (which I am trying to do now), the planet will move between -18C and 46C during its orbit, exceeding human tolerance by 8 degrees at either end of the range, which makes it very interesting from a roleplay/story perspective.


I like the new orbital stuff, but do you have any plans for colony management tools for dealing with the temp swings, automated or manual? It seems reasonable that the settlers would be aware of the effects of the eccentric orbit, and have plans to mitigate their effects instead of just dying in droves.  Pop caps (to allow for reserve infracture; cap could be set using max CC & available infrastructure, or manually), mass hibernation complexes (stop the entire colony, but allow them to ride it out without mass death), A way to depopulate a planet without abandoning it (to allow for, say, a mining outpost to operate for 30 years, be evaced for a decade or two, then bring workers back once the CC comes back down). 
In general, some way to gather excess in times of plenty to guard against times of need, whatever form that takes.

Without some sort of controls, the RP opportunities for this system seem a little slim to me.  I have a hard time imagining why people would willing live on a planet that is regularly uninhabitable without some means of preparing for those times (unless you're rolling with a dictatorial government, but that's only one way to play).

These sort of systems could also be the starting point for a disaster/event system, if that strikes your fancy at some point down the line.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #277 on: August 23, 2021, 04:08:04 PM »
Without some sort of controls, the RP opportunities for this system seem a little slim to me.  I have a hard time imagining why people would willing live on a planet that is regularly uninhabitable without some means of preparing for those times (unless you're rolling with a dictatorial government, but that's only one way to play).

It seems like the underlying "issue" people are bringing up is not that there's no RP opportunities, but rather that the RP opportunities require player attention and (micro?)management. In other words, it looks to me like players are complaining that there is not enough automation to make the RP "worth it" for them.

From what I gather it seems like the RP opportunities, i.e. why Steve likes this new design so much, is because the player does have to pay attention to their colonies instead of just setting them on autopilot and checking every couple years to make sure the civvies haven't depopulated Earth again. The idea is to add gameplay for colony management. So I think to some extent it is maybe not in keeping with this design to expect a lot of automation which would just be turned on by most players and ignored, and where is the fun in that?

Personally I think this all sounds extremely interesting with the variety of different colony sites that can exist. However I do also like to play more slowly than many people so I am sure not everyone will find it to their own taste. Other people who do not appreciate the added management always have the option of only colonizing up to the max CC limit and accepting some inefficiency, or plopping AMs everywhere like we already do anyways.
 
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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #278 on: August 23, 2021, 07:41:43 PM »
Yeah, nothing forces you to colonize a planet which turns hostile at some point of its orbit. I'm guessing that most planets just vary slightly in their CC if at all. I agree with nuclearslurpee, it seems to me as well that this feature is to add more work for the player in colony management - if they so choose.
 

Offline ISN

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #279 on: August 23, 2021, 08:21:31 PM »
Without some sort of controls, the RP opportunities for this system seem a little slim to me.  I have a hard time imagining why people would willing live on a planet that is regularly uninhabitable without some means of preparing for those times (unless you're rolling with a dictatorial government, but that's only one way to play).

It seems like the underlying "issue" people are bringing up is not that there's no RP opportunities, but rather that the RP opportunities require player attention and (micro?)management. In other words, it looks to me like players are complaining that there is not enough automation to make the RP "worth it" for them.

From what I gather it seems like the RP opportunities, i.e. why Steve likes this new design so much, is because the player does have to pay attention to their colonies instead of just setting them on autopilot and checking every couple years to make sure the civvies haven't depopulated Earth again. The idea is to add gameplay for colony management. So I think to some extent it is maybe not in keeping with this design to expect a lot of automation which would just be turned on by most players and ignored, and where is the fun in that?

I'm not sure automation is what was being asked for. Of the ideas mentioned in the post (pop caps, mass hibernation complexes, and a way to depopulate a planet without abandoning it), two out of three seem like they would be manual tools. I think at present there's just a dearth of colony management options, automated or otherwise. The concern as I see it is that the tools currently in the game (setting a colony as a destination/source of colonists, restricting it to military traffic, etc.) might not be powerful or flexible enough to deal with really difficult planets, and trying to do so might end up more frustrating than challenging. (Personally, I expect to greatly enjoy the new update regardless of whether Steve adds any new colony management options, but I can definitely see where the concern is coming from.)
 
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Offline db48x

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #280 on: August 25, 2021, 11:05:59 AM »
Steve, can you talk a bit about the technical details of your implementation of non–circular orbits? Do you differentiate between circular and non–circular orbits, or are all orbiting bodies advanced using the same code? Do you use a function that only handles ellipses, or did you use the closed–form solution for the general two–body problem (for example, see https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19660027556.pdf)? I’m assuming the former, since you said you hadn’t yet decided how to handle ʻOumuamua.
 

Offline LiquidGold2

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #281 on: August 26, 2021, 08:36:14 PM »
Quote from: nuclearslurpee link=topic=12524. msg154696#msg154696 date=1629752884
is because the player does have to pay attention to their colonies instead of just setting them on autopilot and checking every couple years to make sure the civvies haven't depopulated Earth again.  The idea is to add gameplay for colony management.
. . .
So I think to some extent it is maybe not in keeping with this design to expect a lot of automation which would just be turned on by most players and ignored, and where is the fun in that?

As it stands, we have very limited means of interacting with the colonies along those lines.  What I'm asking for in a general sense is a way to interact with the new system.  The temp swings will only add micromanagement if we don't have some way of interfacing with them.

Say you decide to set up a mining colony on a body that will be very high CC in 20 years.  How is the player supposed to interact with the colony as the CC creeps up over the years, before it spikes to the max value, and slowly comes back down? You can't prepare ahead of time by shipping excess colonists out, because the more you ship out the faster natural growth will refill it.  Even when the pop is reduce to 0, there is still somehow natural growth.  As it stands, all you can really do is either deal with the "unrest due to overpopulation" messages until everyone dies off, or futilely fight against the pops trying to move into infrastructure that will be needed to keep everyone alive later by sending colony ships continuously at them.

If the extent of automation is checking a box and forgetting about an entire game system, you have a point.  But the way you fix that is by making the process of setting up the automation interesting.  Look no further than factorio to see how automating the tedium away can be fun in and of itself.


My suggestions weren't completely off-the-cuff:

Pop caps could be a simple as not letting pops grow into more infracture than will be needed at max CC, they could be manually set, or they could be some combo of automatic and manual.  This would effectively allow the player to earmark infrastructure as emergency use only.

Mass hibernation complexes would be something you'd need to build, and each one would only hold so many pops.  Their travel weight and production costs could be high or low for different balance reasons.  They would allow the player to essentially pause the planet, and could have a startup and shutdown time (like industries in VB).  This would make the planet useless while hibernating, but would prevent people dying by the millions, and bypasses the issue of trying to fight against the repopulation systems.

A way to depopulate an planet without abandoning it could be as simple as a button that stops colony ships dropping off colonists and stops any natural pop growth (with a hit to unrest or other downside to prevent abuse).  This would allow the population to be evacuated en-mass for an indeterminate amount of time without more people growing from rocks or whatever.  A second button could even be added, marking the colony as "being evaced", which would allow the civil colony ships to reduce the population to zero (the government might have to pay the civs instead of the reverse for this service).

I'm not picky about the tools we're given to interact with the new system.  But we currently don't have any tools I'm aware of to do anything that's not inefficient, micro-intensive, and involves fighting against other game systems.
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #282 on: August 26, 2021, 10:29:23 PM »
You can't prepare ahead of time by shipping excess colonists out, because the more you ship out the faster natural growth will refill it.  Even when the pop is reduce to 0, there is still somehow natural growth.  As it stands, all you can really do is either deal with the "unrest due to overpopulation" messages until everyone dies off, or futilely fight against the pops trying to move into infrastructure that will be needed to keep everyone alive later by sending colony ships continuously at them.

I don't want to minimize the rest of your post, but...if there is still "natural growth" when the population is reduced to literally zero, this sounds like a bug. The only "WAI" thing I can think of that would cause "natural" growth at 0 pop would be civilian colony ships delivering colonists because they see empty infrastructure, and this can be prevented by checking a box in the colony window.

The natural pop growth, while annoying, is also only 10% per year at most so fighting natural growth with colony ships should certainly not be futile A colony of 10m pop size or larger can be set as a source of colonists only, which will also mobilize the civilian shipping lines to move people offworld, and a smaller colony can only grow by at most 100,000 people per year which is only a couple of colony shiploads. It is entirely possible provided that one knows where the (admittedly limited) controls we do have available can be found - which in fairness many are unaware of some of these controls.

This being said...

Quote
My suggestions weren't completely off-the-cuff:

words

It sounds like the #1 thing needed are pop caps and/or a way to turn off natural population growth (again, this is different from civilian shipping-driven growth). This I think is reasonable particularly as natural growth is the cause of many other problems that are more annoying than fun - for example, trying to use orbital habitats on planets like Venus is a management nightmare because pop growth will exceed the habitat capacity as soon as a small bit of "free" infrastructure is built on the planet surface. Some way to tell the population to stop doing stupid things like this makes sense and will probably offer a lot in terms of making colony management easier with the v2.0 changes as well.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #283 on: August 26, 2021, 10:36:13 PM »
Steve has said that colonies will build & demand infra for the maximum CC of the body, not the current one and that civilians will not deliver pop to go over the capacity of the infrastructure present.

So, the only problem is natural pop growth if it's too fast which I doubt. Infra production just by civilians is pretty effective providing sufficient infra to counter natural pop growth unless you have several colonies demanding a lot of infrastructure.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #284 on: August 27, 2021, 08:00:11 AM »
I like the new orbital stuff, but do you have any plans for colony management tools for dealing with the temp swings, automated or manual? It seems reasonable that the settlers would be aware of the effects of the eccentric orbit, and have plans to mitigate their effects instead of just dying in droves.  Pop caps (to allow for reserve infracture; cap could be set using max CC & available infrastructure, or manually), mass hibernation complexes (stop the entire colony, but allow them to ride it out without mass death), A way to depopulate a planet without abandoning it (to allow for, say, a mining outpost to operate for 30 years, be evaced for a decade or two, then bring workers back once the CC comes back down). 
In general, some way to gather excess in times of plenty to guard against times of need, whatever form that takes.

Without some sort of controls, the RP opportunities for this system seem a little slim to me.  I have a hard time imagining why people would willing live on a planet that is regularly uninhabitable without some means of preparing for those times (unless you're rolling with a dictatorial government, but that's only one way to play).

These sort of systems could also be the starting point for a disaster/event system, if that strikes your fancy at some point down the line.

Colony infrastructure production, civilian delivery of infrastructure and civilian delivery of colonists are all based on max colony cost, not current, so the problems above should not arise. Pop growth is based on current colony cost, so that could exceed the max supported population, but that is similar in a way to living near volcanos or major fault lines. In any event, pop growth going beyond the maximum future supported population and then dying off a little, has no real difference compared to that growth not happening in the first place. I just thought that the former was more likely to happen than the latter, given past human behaviour.
 
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