Do AI/NPR fleets frequently run out of fuel?

[Second Foundationer (OP)]

Or was this just rare luck/bad luck for them?

This is from 1.9.5.
Our much decimated main cluster sits in orbit of an NPR home world and has been bombarding their ground forces on and off for weeks now. As you can see, a fleet of theirs sits stranded about 30 million km outside the home world orbit, and has been sitting there all the time. It consists of enough AMM/PD ships to contain a well-timed combination of our strike missiles and two-stage Corona missiles [the name refers to an astrophysical, not a biological phenomenon], and our short-ranged railgun/carronade armament would make a direct approach painful at least – something we cannot afford after losing much of our fleet in a failed operation in another NPR home system, and due to very limited population and industrial capacity. For the same reason, we can't mount an immediate invasion without bombardment, we'd be outnumbered heavily.
So, if that fleet hadn't been stranded, it would probably have prevented us from immediately bringing order to their primitive planet that apparently still relies on biological evolution alone.

It's great that they have logistical limits on operations now; but if this happens often, maybe the NPR fleet AI deserves another look. Any other observations on stranded NPR fleets?

[SpikeTheHobbitMage]

I'm betting that those are missile ships that have run out of ammunition.  The AI will park like that when they are trying to kite you and you don't take the bait.

[Second Foundationer (OP)]

Hmm. No ultimate certainties yet; but we think one class is beam PD, the other AMM. And they do definitely have some missiles left. Our Unicluster has closed in to 5gm for a quick ham & eggs bombing run: a refreshing little AMM shower with Coronas mixed in; we wasted them as we do not fear the scattered remnants of their fleet buzzing around aimlessly in neighbouring systems.

One thing I notice: Absolutely no thermal signature. Are those stations??? It would explain perfectly why they don't move. (If I remember correctly, Steve's announced V1.00 change was that NPR ships would still be able to move without fuel, but only to refuel. Of course, their most obvious refuelling point is besieged right now, but they were already sitting when we arrived in the inner system.) That would also enable them to have decent fire-power at that size. But it would be absurd AI-wise. 15 stations in the middle of nowhere, no asteroids, absolutely nothing nearby

[Black]

Hmm. No ultimate certainties yet; but we think one class is beam PD, the other AMM. And they do definitely have some missiles left. Our Unicluster has closed in to 5gm for a quick ham & eggs bombing run: a refreshing little AMM shower with Coronas mixed in; we wasted them as we do not fear the scattered remnants of their fleet buzzing around aimlessly in neighbouring systems.

One thing I notice: Absolutely no thermal signature. Are those stations??? It would explain perfectly why they don't move. (If I remember correctly, Steve's announced V1.00 change was that NPR ships would still be able to move without fuel, but only to refuel. Of course, their most obvious refuelling point is besieged right now, but they were already sitting when we arrived in the inner system.) That would also enable them to have decent fire-power at that size. But it would be absurd AI-wise. 15 stations in the middle of nowhere, no asteroids, absolutely nothing nearby

Most likely stations. I noticed similar behavior from Precursor OWPs. When I run them out of the missiles, I was waiting for my boarding ships to arrive and the stations started to move to my position at 1km/s.

It also happened several times that my stations lost position on planet they orbited. But if that would be the case, they would still be at orbital path of the original planet.

[DFNewb]

i don't think those are stations, just ships that don't move have their thermal put to 1

[JacenHan]

1 km/s means the ship is stationary, but the game doesn't want to call it 0 km/s because that would lead to divide-by-zero errors.

[Second Foundationer (OP)]

Most likely stations. I noticed similar behavior from Precursor OWPs. When I run them out of the missiles, I was waiting for my boarding ships to arrive and the stations started to move to my position at 1km/s.

It also happened several times that my stations lost position on planet they orbited. But if that would be the case, they would still be at orbital path of the original planet.

Yes, the position doesn't fit a lost "anchor". I just checked the asteroid display options and the system table again to be sure: 4+1 dwarf planets, 4 comets, no moons, no asteroids, nothing around the companion star. I even checked the comet paths, no fit.

One possibility I considered: The system is unsurveyed; so, it could be an unstabilized jump point we do not know about. But they spammed stabilized jump points all over the sector, including four in this home system. It seems unlikely to me that they would spare one point to then park stations on it.

But I can't rule it out. In fact, right now, it seems to me the only plausible/WAI explanation.
We'll find out eventually, only, it may take a while. We need that planet first.

Edit: It's also possible that they tried to move from the planet to our entry point at 1km/s. The first jump point assault took place more than a year ago. We just didn't enter the inner system back then. AI-unwise, there is a catch, though: It's 3.59 bn km from the star to the JP, that's roughly a century at 1 km/s, give or take a decade.

i don't think those are stations, just ships that don't move have their thermal put to 1

The minimum thermal emissions are size-dependent. I think it's 0.1% of size in tons. So, at 12,000 t, they should have a base emission of 12. Since we could see the Thermal 4 from the missiles at that range when we closed in, the ship engines should have shown up as well.

Or does it go fully down to 0 if a ship runs out of fuel?

[SpikeTheHobbitMage]

Most likely stations. I noticed similar behavior from Precursor OWPs. When I run them out of the missiles, I was waiting for my boarding ships to arrive and the stations started to move to my position at 1km/s.

It also happened several times that my stations lost position on planet they orbited. But if that would be the case, they would still be at orbital path of the original planet.

Yes, the position doesn't fit a lost "anchor". I just checked the asteroid display options and the system table again to be sure: 4+1 dwarf planets, 4 comets, no moons, no asteroids, nothing around the companion star. I even checked the comet paths, no fit.

One possibility I considered: The system is unsurveyed; so, it could be an unstabilized jump point we do not know about. But they spammed stabilized jump points all over the sector, including four in this home system. It seems unlikely to me that they would spare one point to then park stations on it.

But I can't rule it out. In fact, right now, it seems to me the only plausible/WAI explanation.
We'll find out eventually, only, it may take a while. We need that planet first.

Edit: It's also possible that they tried to move from the planet to our entry point at 1km/s. The first jump point assault took place more than a year ago. We just didn't enter the inner system back then. AI-unwise, there is a catch, though: It's 3.59 bn km from the star to the JP, that's roughly a century at 1 km/s, give or take a decade.

i don't think those are stations, just ships that don't move have their thermal put to 1

The minimum thermal emissions are size-dependent. I think it's 0.1% of size in tons. So, at 12,000 t, they should have a base emission of 12. Since we could see the Thermal 4 from the missiles at that range when we closed in, the ship engines should have shown up as well.

Or does it go fully down to 0 if a ship runs out of fuel?

I think thermal emissions drop when a ship isn't moving.

[Second Foundationer (OP)]

I think thermal emissions drop when a ship isn't moving.

They do in C#, but they don't go to zero. (C# Aurora Changes List v1.00: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg113792#msg113792)

You can take a look at one of your own ship lists for a fleet that isn't moving. The 'Thermal' column corresponds to the ship sizes in kt.

PS: Just did that. Looking at my own fleets, it seems to apply to engine-less stations as well, apparently. Thermal reduction is theoretically possible, but unlikely, none of the wrecks salvaged so far had any sign of it. Now I'm out of ideas. I'll just have to wreck those things soon, whatever they may be.

[Droll]

I think thermal emissions drop when a ship isn't moving.

They do in C#, but they don't go to zero. (C# Aurora Changes List v1.00: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg113792#msg113792)

You can take a look at one of your own ship lists for a fleet that isn't moving. The 'Thermal' column corresponds to the ship sizes in kt.

PS: Just did that. Looking at my own fleets, it seems to apply to engine-less stations as well, apparently. Thermal reduction is theoretically possible, but unlikely, none of the wrecks salvaged so far had any sign of it. Now I'm out of ideas. I'll just have to wreck those things soon, whatever they may be.

Actually their fuel does go to zero but to save on AI complexity, they can still move at zero fuel - its just that the only mission that ship can now do is to refuel or go home and stew.

[Second Foundationer (OP)]

Only to illustrate that even engine-less stations have a base thermal signature:
The design of our station orbiting Campeche (the unicluster is away overhauling/chasing a small squadron of Campeche ships) which claims "TH 0" and an intelligence screen obtained from our biolimited ancestors in the United Planets who have now noticed our presence which proves otherwise:

Code: [Select]

JPDB Repulsor 003  (Repulsor class Jump Point Defence Base)      20,253 tons       491 Crew       3,150.7 BP       TCS 405    TH 0    EM 0
1 km/s      Armour 12-66       Shields 0-0       HTK 137      Sensors 49/49/0/0      DCR 30      PPV 85
Maint Life 6.22 Years     MSP 1,944    AFR 164%    IFR 2.3%    1YR 86    5YR 1,293    Max Repair 105 MSP
Magazine 2,096   
Node    Control Rating 4   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Morale Check Required   


CPAP 2094 30 cm C4 Plasma Carronade (5)    Range 128,000km     TS: 5,000 km/s     Power 24-4     RM 10,000 km    ROF 30       
CPAP 2094 10cm Railgun V40/C3 (10x4)    Range 40,000km     TS: 5,000 km/s     Power 3-3     Accuracy Modifier 100%     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5       
CPAP 2094 Beam Fire Control R128-TS5000 (3)     Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 5,000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 38 30 22
CPAP 2094 Stellarator Fusion Reactor R16 (3)     Total Power Output 48.3    Exp 5%
CPAP 2094 Stellarator Fusion Reactor R4 (1)     Total Power Output 4    Exp 5%

CPAP 2094 Size 1 Missile Launcher (10)     Missile Size: 1    Rate of Fire 5
CPAP 2094 Missile Fire Control FC12-R1 (2)     Range 12.1m km    Resolution 1
CPAP 2094 Missile Interception Drone (2011)    Speed: 30,000 km/s    End: 3.4m     Range: 6m km    WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 340/204/102

CPAP 2094 Active Search Sensor AS75-R60 (1)     GPS 6300     Range 75.1m km    Resolution 60
CPAP 2094 Active Search Sensor AS17-R1 (1)     GPS 84     Range 17.1m km    MCR 1.5m km    Resolution 1
CPAP 2094 EM Sensor EM4.50-49.50 (1)     Sensitivity 49.5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  55.6m km
CPAP 2094 Thermal Sensor TH4.50-49.50 (1)     Sensitivity 49.5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  55.6m km

ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes