Author Topic: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'  (Read 7559 times)

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Offline Malorn (OP)

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2020, 03:22:41 PM »

My stability didn't go below 90% before I sent in the troops, at which point they kept things stable.

Right, sure, but you are saying you saw something which gave you an idea of how many troops you needed, and not on a conquered population? I've been below 90% many times on various colonies, never seen anything like that.

There is a post by Steve somewhere that explains the policing and how it will be changed in the next patch.

Yes, it's quoted above. This is really not about the 'math' of policing. It's about UI displays, quirks with supply and ground unit woes in general. Basically, it's not about the way the game calculates anything, but rather about how players are able to interact with those calculations. And really, the policing is NOT the important part. Supply and rebuilding ground forces is far more of a problem currently.

For some reason everyone seems to think it's a question about how policing works, it's kinda driving me nuts... :'(

Just for clarity, I think the following are the 'vital' parts of what I originally said:

The first and most obvious thing, which many have already mentioned, is that it would be very helpful to have a 'rebuild to template' build option, so it is not necessary to manually rebuild ground formations after they have been mauled horribly by the enemy. This could be as simple as just calculating the build cost of the current formation, and then the build cost of the formation you have selected, and cost the difference. This would also allow you to 'refit' divisions with new technology, if you so chose.
Supply...oh my, supply. Right now there is little purpose to have any integrated supply into your troop formations, simply because in any large or long scale battle, those supplies will not be consumed unless everything has gone wrong. And, odds are, those supply elements will be destroyed by enemy action by the point they are needed. Supply is also quite frustrating in general, since it requires the constant building of new formations and the integration of those formations into an existing OoB. Lots of clicking, moving, micromanagement, etc. This can be somewhat justified in the case of an invasion, since that has the players full attention, but in the case of constant border skirmishing...it becomes a bit tiresome quickly.
STO setup: I love STOs, the idea is awesome, the concept is fun, they are great for defending planets. However setting up their targeting is a bit less great, especially when you have a couple hundred of them scattered across a dozen planets. First it's hard to find the proper ones and then you do huge amounts of clicking until your hand dies. It'd be great to have a planet view option, that only had the STOs on the planet. But the really important thing is it would be VERY nice if we could select multiple STOs at once to change their targeting. It would also be great if we could specify a 'default' targeting option for each STO, meaning that we don't have to manually set all the PD to missile interception. Thank god they choose their own targets...

« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 03:29:03 PM by Malorn »
 

Offline Ulzgoroth

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2020, 04:00:19 PM »

My stability didn't go below 90% before I sent in the troops, at which point they kept things stable.

Right, sure, but you are saying you saw something which gave you an idea of how many troops you needed, and not on a conquered population? I've been below 90% many times on various colonies, never seen anything like that.
Well, I was saying that there were numbers (in the population summary) for occupation present and needed.

Possibly only after I actually had an occupation force on site. I didn't use those numbers to calibrate the force, I just built a general-purpose basic garrison company and shipped it over and saw that the unrest increasing events switched to events about unrest being suppressed.
 

Offline Malorn (OP)

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2020, 04:39:28 PM »
Well, I was saying that there were numbers (in the population summary) for occupation present and needed.

Possibly only after I actually had an occupation force on site. I didn't use those numbers to calibrate the force, I just built a general-purpose basic garrison company and shipped it over and saw that the unrest increasing events switched to events about unrest being suppressed.

Well...not sure what you saw then. The summary has a lovely display for 'protection required/actual', but that has nothing to do with policing or ground troops. I've got ground troops on a colony that is hovering around 87% stability, and I still can see nothing about occupation forces. Are you sure this was a colony that you founded, not one you conquered?

Yes, you get messages about policing reducing the loss of stability, and with enough troops you can prevent loss entirely. BUT...again, nothing on the summary screen about it.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 04:41:38 PM by Malorn »
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2020, 06:37:31 PM »
A turret with 0 km/s tracking speed just operates like a normal un-turreted weapon, it does not have 0% CTH.

As for waste of research.... waaahhh? You can only put one laser per STO. If you want more firepower per STO you would need more guns and turrets let you do that. It is also lighter than four single STOs. Four of the Single Laser examples given below would need 1,188 Tons. The Quad Turret only needs 867. Also, HORRY SHET that range... I only have Active Strength 10 and Conventional-Tech Fire Controls :o

These were thrown to together as an example, so they don't have Capacitor 3 and probably aren't terribly effective given that they are 10cm Infrared Lasers. As an aside, these should have been made Non-Combat classes, since the Non-Combat makes them harder to hit but doesn't reduce their effectiveness. The more you know. :)

STO, Single Laser (10cm)
Code: [Select]
Transport Size (tons) 297     Cost 7.94     Armour 3     Hit Points 9
Annual Maintenance Cost 0.99     Resupply Cost 0

10cm C1 Infrared Laser
Range 30,000 km      Tracking 1,250 km/s      Damage 3 / 1     Shots 1     Rate of Fire 15
Maximum Fire Control Range 100,000km      Chance to Hit at Max Range 70%
Maximum Sensor Range 1,261,564km      Max Range vs Missile 113,541 km

Duranium  0.3    Boronide  3.3    Vendarite  0.24    Uridium  3    Corundium  1   
Development Cost  79

STO, Quad Laser (10cm)
Code: [Select]
Transport Size (tons) 867     Cost 22.04     Armour 3     Hit Points 9
Annual Maintenance Cost 2.8     Resupply Cost 0

Quad 10cm C1 Infrared Laser Turret
Range 30,000 km      Tracking 1,250 km/s      Damage 3 / 1     Shots 4     Rate of Fire 15
Maximum Fire Control Range 100,000km      Chance to Hit at Max Range 70%
Maximum Sensor Range 1,261,564km      Max Range vs Missile 113,541 km

Duranium  1.2    Boronide  13.2    Vendarite  0.24    Uridium  3    Corundium  4   
Development Cost  220
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 06:42:21 PM by xenoscepter »
 
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Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2020, 06:47:36 PM »
As of 1.9.5 there is no way to see Ground Unit Police Needed/Actual...

PPV is related only to ships, and only ships can raise or lower it or indeed affect it in any way. Military Police doesn't affect PPV and never did, nor is it intended to. It's meant to offset the unrest that comes from a lack of PPV, aka not meeting the PPV value requested. MPs only reduce unrest, they do not actually prevent it.

Mind you, they can prevent unrest in a roundabout fashion. If you have enough Police Strength the unrest will go down faster than it can rise, thus being effectively "prevented". It is important to note, however, that the unrest is generate first, then it is reduced afterwards. So if you cannot maintain enough Police Strength, it will eventually begin to creep upwards and increase over time.
 

Offline Malorn (OP)

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2020, 07:25:35 PM »
A turret with 0 km/s tracking speed just operates like a normal un-turreted weapon, it does not have 0% CTH.

As for waste of research.... waaahhh? You can only put one laser per STO. If you want more firepower per STO you would need more guns and turrets let you do that. It is also lighter than four single STOs. Four of the Single Laser examples given below would need 1,188 Tons. The Quad Turret only needs 867. Also, HORRY SHET that range... I only have Active Strength 10 and Conventional-Tech Fire Controls :o

These were thrown to together as an example, so they don't have Capacitor 3 and probably aren't terribly effective given that they are 10cm Infrared Lasers. As an aside, these should have been made Non-Combat classes, since the Non-Combat makes them harder to hit but doesn't reduce their effectiveness. The more you know. :)

STO, Single Laser (10cm)
Code: [Select]
Transport Size (tons) 297     Cost 7.94     Armour 3     Hit Points 9
Annual Maintenance Cost 0.99     Resupply Cost 0

10cm C1 Infrared Laser
Range 30,000 km      Tracking 1,250 km/s      Damage 3 / 1     Shots 1     Rate of Fire 15
Maximum Fire Control Range 100,000km      Chance to Hit at Max Range 70%
Maximum Sensor Range 1,261,564km      Max Range vs Missile 113,541 km

Duranium  0.3    Boronide  3.3    Vendarite  0.24    Uridium  3    Corundium  1   
Development Cost  79

STO, Quad Laser (10cm)
Code: [Select]
Transport Size (tons) 867     Cost 22.04     Armour 3     Hit Points 9
Annual Maintenance Cost 2.8     Resupply Cost 0

Quad 10cm C1 Infrared Laser Turret
Range 30,000 km      Tracking 1,250 km/s      Damage 3 / 1     Shots 4     Rate of Fire 15
Maximum Fire Control Range 100,000km      Chance to Hit at Max Range 70%
Maximum Sensor Range 1,261,564km      Max Range vs Missile 113,541 km

Duranium  1.2    Boronide  13.2    Vendarite  0.24    Uridium  3    Corundium  4   
Development Cost  220

Wow, that is a huge savings...I didn't think it would do that, I thought it would just cost 4x the base price.

As of 1.9.5 there is no way to see Ground Unit Police Needed/Actual...

PPV is related only to ships, and only ships can raise or lower it or indeed affect it in any way. Military Police doesn't affect PPV and never did, nor is it intended to. It's meant to offset the unrest that comes from a lack of PPV, aka not meeting the PPV value requested. MPs only reduce unrest, they do not actually prevent it.

Mind you, they can prevent unrest in a roundabout fashion. If you have enough Police Strength the unrest will go down faster than it can rise, thus being effectively "prevented". It is important to note, however, that the unrest is generate first, then it is reduced afterwards. So if you cannot maintain enough Police Strength, it will eventually begin to creep upwards and increase over time.

Well..yes? I never said that ground troops ought to effect PPV? Though, I admit, I do wonder why STOs don't, but eh, I get the point of having ships have a purpose.

But yeah, I do think ground troops prevent unrest. As you pointed out, enough of them cause stability to rise faster then it is falling. That is, in the end, 'preventing' unrest. I mean, if you can't maintain enough PPV unrest will creep upward as well, same basic logic. The only point, and a minor one at that, was that it would be nice to know how many troops were necessary.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 07:27:50 PM by Malorn »
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2020, 08:11:35 PM »
@Malorn

 You didn't say it, but some of those who replied did. VB6 has a Police Strength on the Ground Units summary. C# currently has no equivalent. Some of those replying to this thread seem to me to be conflating that with the PPV. I was hoping to clarify for them if that ended up being the case.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2020, 10:30:53 PM »
@Malorn

 You didn't say it, but some of those who replied did. VB6 has a Police Strength on the Ground Units summary. C# currently has no equivalent. Some of those replying to this thread seem to me to be conflating that with the PPV. I was hoping to clarify for them if that ended up being the case.

Slight alteration - police strength is only shown on planets that aren't of imperial population however I believe that you will always be able to see police strength in 1.12.0
 

Offline vorpal+5

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2020, 10:39:18 PM »
So, intensive click fest for setting up STOs? Did Steve not spoke of a dedicated STO management screen at some point?
 

Offline Ulzgoroth

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2020, 01:27:37 AM »
Wow, that is a huge savings...I didn't think it would do that, I thought it would just cost 4x the base price.
Well, each STO unit has its own fire control, active sensor, and reactor. Saving three copies each of the fire control and sensor, and using a single larger and more efficient reactor, should save a bit.

And 10cm lasers are very small weapons, so all those fixed overhead costs are a much bigger share of the per-unit price than they would be if you were building a 30cm heavy antiship laser or a full-scale Gauss point defense emplacement.
 
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Offline serger

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2020, 01:42:31 AM »
If I understand correctly the formula, that was quoted above - the most effective police strength force will be not one big formation, but on the contrary a stack of small formations:

4t = 2*2t
SQRT(4) = 2 < ~2.8 = 2*SQRT(2)
 

Offline SpikeTheHobbitMage

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2020, 03:22:44 AM »
A turret with 0 km/s tracking speed just operates like a normal un-turreted weapon, it does not have 0% CTH.

As for waste of research.... waaahhh? You can only put one laser per STO. If you want more firepower per STO you would need more guns and turrets let you do that. It is also lighter than four single STOs. Four of the Single Laser examples given below would need 1,188 Tons. The Quad Turret only needs 867. Also, HORRY SHET that range... I only have Active Strength 10 and Conventional-Tech Fire Controls :o

These were thrown to together as an example, so they don't have Capacitor 3 and probably aren't terribly effective given that they are 10cm Infrared Lasers. As an aside, these should have been made Non-Combat classes, since the Non-Combat makes them harder to hit but doesn't reduce their effectiveness. The more you know. :)

STO, Single Laser (10cm)
Code: [Select]
Transport Size (tons) 297     Cost 7.94     Armour 3     Hit Points 9
Annual Maintenance Cost 0.99     Resupply Cost 0

10cm C1 Infrared Laser
Range 30,000 km      Tracking 1,250 km/s      Damage 3 / 1     Shots 1     Rate of Fire 15
Maximum Fire Control Range 100,000km      Chance to Hit at Max Range 70%
Maximum Sensor Range 1,261,564km      Max Range vs Missile 113,541 km

Duranium  0.3    Boronide  3.3    Vendarite  0.24    Uridium  3    Corundium  1   
Development Cost  79

STO, Quad Laser (10cm)
Code: [Select]
Transport Size (tons) 867     Cost 22.04     Armour 3     Hit Points 9
Annual Maintenance Cost 2.8     Resupply Cost 0

Quad 10cm C1 Infrared Laser Turret
Range 30,000 km      Tracking 1,250 km/s      Damage 3 / 1     Shots 4     Rate of Fire 15
Maximum Fire Control Range 100,000km      Chance to Hit at Max Range 70%
Maximum Sensor Range 1,261,564km      Max Range vs Missile 113,541 km

Duranium  1.2    Boronide  13.2    Vendarite  0.24    Uridium  3    Corundium  4   
Development Cost  220
I misremembered.  Tracking speed 1 turrets are the useless ones.  Thank you for the correction.

Let me see if I'm reading this right:
In the example there is a 321 ton savings for the quad system vs 4 of the single.  Dividing by three gives us 107 tons per weapon in savings.

STOs always use a 100 ton FC*.  The example indicates a starting tech FC.  That leaves us with 7 tons for a sensor and a reactor.

Magnetic Confinement Fusion with 100% boost gives us 1 Power in exactly 7 tons.  Without boost requires a Gas-core Anti-matter reactor.  Neither of these options leave room for the sensor, so the reactor must be higher tech than this.  A Vacuum Energy Power Plant with 100% boost gives us 1.2 power in exactly 3 tons.  Reducing it to 2.5 tons would only give 0.9 power.

The active is an almost** perfect match for a 5 ton starting tech sensor, but that would only leave 2 tons for the reactor which isn't enough.  If the active sensor is reduced to 4 tons and then given a 25% effective size bonus like the FC, that would leave exactly 3 tons for a legal reactor.

*1x range/4x speed for PD and 4x range/1x speed for anti-ship, with a (IIRC) 25% range bonus.
**There is an unexplained 1 km discrepancy in the displayed maximum sensor range, suggesting that it isn't quite the same sensor.

If I understand correctly the formula, that was quoted above - the most effective police strength force will be not one big formation, but on the contrary a stack of small formations:

4t = 2*2t
SQRT(4) = 2 < ~2.8 = 2*SQRT(2)
I understood it to mean the size of the individual elements, meaning that infantry are more effective than tanks on a ton-for-ton basis.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2020, 10:38:07 AM »
If I understand correctly the formula, that was quoted above - the most effective police strength force will be not one big formation, but on the contrary a stack of small formations:

4t = 2*2t
SQRT(4) = 2 < ~2.8 = 2*SQRT(2)

Close, the size refers to the total size in terms of tonnage. So if all ground forces have 100000 tons of weight that is the value that is used for size.
Most effective policing formation is going to be one that can fit the most number of units inside any given size. Unit quantity is a bigger factor than that of size which is why further up this thread people suggest using the 3t infantryman, the smollest unit you can get.

To that effect, you can have formations be as big as you need. Just use the optimal type of unit in them for maximum policing power.
 
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Offline Ulzgoroth

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2020, 10:39:05 AM »
STOs always use a 100 ton FC*.  The example indicates a starting tech FC.  That leaves us with 7 tons for a sensor and a reactor.
I believe you're in error here.

STOs use a FC based on either 4x range/1x speed or 1x range/4x speed, but one of the bonuses they get from there is that the FC is half-sized. Which would make it 50 tons I believe. (The other is that they get 1.25x range either way.)
 

Offline SpikeTheHobbitMage

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Re: Ground Combat Observations and 'Rough Spots'
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2020, 02:07:00 PM »
STOs always use a 100 ton FC*.  The example indicates a starting tech FC.  That leaves us with 7 tons for a sensor and a reactor.
I believe you're in error here.

STOs use a FC based on either 4x range/1x speed or 1x range/4x speed, but one of the bonuses they get from there is that the FC is half-sized. Which would make it 50 tons I believe. (The other is that they get 1.25x range either way.)
You are correct and that makes all the difference.  Pricing both units out using a standard 0.1HS active sensor and Conventional Reactor tech gives us:

NameTonsDuraniumBoronideVendariteUridiumCorundium
Single:
Static120.24
10cm Laser1500.30.31.0
1/2 size BFC502.0
Search Sensor51
R1 Reactor803
Total2970.33.30.2431
Quad:
Static120.24
4x 10cm Laser6001.21.24.0
1/2 size BFC502.0
Search Sensor51
R4 Reactor20012
Total8671.213.20.2434