How does the tech scaling work for generated NPRs?

[kilo (OP)]

Hi,

I am playing a very low research speed game and I am a bit shocked about the quality of enemy designs. Is it posible that research points scale in a weird way for generated NPRs when you sit at 20% research speed? As far as I understood it, a generated NPR will get a certain percentage of the value of all the stuff you have build on it's creation. How can it be that they have 1 level more in engines and powerplants, 1 level in armor tech, 3 levels in beam weapon tech, 2 levels in fire control tech, 3 levels in gauss tech, 2 levels in turret tracking tech, 3 levels in jump engine tech and so on and so forth.
I should not be that bad when it comes to technology, as one in 18 humans works in labs, which is all I can do without ruining the economy.

[nuclearslurpee]

NPRs are generated based on the player's population at that point in the game, multiplied by a random factor. The starting RP level of the NPRs is determined by the population, up to 1,250m, with one Research Lab given per 25m, and starting RP equal to the number of years since game start plus twenty, times 300 RP per Lab per year. As far as I know the research rate does not scale this relation at all. At 20% research speed it would take you a while to close this gap, but it can be done eventually if you build a lot of labs and invest in the +RP techs.

Don't think of it as being bad at technology, think of it as encountering a naturally more advanced race and try to roleplay accordingly.

[kilo (OP)]

This is gonna be the dwarf fortress kind of fun. At least now I can stop building warships, as it is completely pointless to do it anyway. The circus is there and all the clowns are coming.

[nuclearslurpee]

It won't be completely pointless, but you will have to reconsider your tactics. Many options are still available to combat a technologically superior foe. Fighters/FACs, box launcher missile volleys, AMM spam, jump point ambushes with plasma, railguns, etc. are all viable approaches. If you are only one engine tech tier behind this is an opportunity as you can use larger engine plus boosting to match speed and employ some of these strategies...it is not too much different from encountering certain spoiler races early in a campaign.

Of course if a war has not already started, there is also the potential for diplomatic solutions, if you can keep in good graces with the NPR (post diplo ships and accept their claims on systems even if this costs you some valuable real estate) this will buy you time to close the gap. Once a NPR spawns they research at the same reduced rate as the rest of the galaxy, so using a lot of labs and a well-planned research strategy can bring you close to parity.

[kilo (OP)]

I do not know whether I can build diplo ships at the moment, but I guess it is my only way of action. I bet it will take me decades to reach their current level of technology.
The bigger problem is that I went with beam weapons and have not much when it comes to missile tech and missiles. Investing in those does not make a lot of sense, as developing, manufacturing and rolling out missiles in significant numbers will take too long. A solution will be found before they become available either way.
Espionage could be useful if possible.

[Froggiest1982]

I do not know whether I can build diplo ships at the moment, but I guess it is my only way of action.

Diplomatic modules are available from start and dont need to be researched.

Espionage could be useful if possible.

You need an ELINT module that would need to be researched.This I would avoid anyway as it works similar to an active sensor and NPRs don't react particularly well to these or military grade ships/engines in their systems.

[nuclearslurpee]

You need an ELINT module that would need to be researched.This I would avoid anyway as it works similar to an active sensor and NPRs don't react particularly well to these or military grade ships/engines in their systems.

Are we sure about this? My understanding is that ELINT works as a rather weak EM sensor, not an active sensor, so is passively operated. It is not immediately detectable when in use.

NPRs also do not care about whether the ship is commercial or not (not to be confused with civilian traffic of course), as the only intelligence they can gather about that is the engine type which of course can be used for deception. Of course since ELINT is a military component such a ship is subject to maintenance, etc. which means it cannot remain on station indefinitely.

The bigger issue is that NPRs tend to take issue with almost any kind of ship in their core systems, although a "small" (<11,000 tons) diplo ship in constant contact can overcome that issue in many cases, but probably it is better to maintain contact in a neutral system if possible. Often the NPRs will accompany their survey ships with a destroyer-sized diplo ship which sits at entry jump points, and if so this is a good target to park your own diplo ship next to.

[Froggiest1982]

You need an ELINT module that would need to be researched.This I would avoid anyway as it works similar to an active sensor and NPRs don't react particularly well to these or military grade ships/engines in their systems.

Are we sure about this? My understanding is that ELINT works as a rather weak EM sensor, not an active sensor, so is passively operated. It is not immediately detectable when in use.

That is correct ELINT per se works as an EM so I should have probably chosen better words  , although what I meant is explained a bit more in-depth later

NPRs also do not care about whether the ship is commercial or not (not to be confused with civilian traffic of course), as the only intelligence they can gather about that is the engine type which of course can be used for deception. Of course since ELINT is a military component such a ship is subject to maintenance, etc. which means it cannot remain on station indefinitely.

So for general detection rules are here:

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg118318#msg118318

So while a ship is judged by its engines, the "have not demonstrated any weapon capability" must also be considered. Scouts with missile launchers for probes, CIWS, or any other defensive mechanism are not an exception to this rule, providing that you have been observed already.

However, Diplomatic ships have a sort of exception to the above plus they generate points that should counter a bit the negative effects of the detection rules making them the only choice if you really want to make peace. Sure, if a commercial engine vessel completely defenseless behind enemy lines with the only purpose of spying is your choice, go for it. Based on my experience, ANY ship without a Diplomatic module sooner or later will be fired upon regardless, especially if there are no positive relationships and you are receiving warning messages. Furthermore, considering the basic diplomatic framework, on particularly aggressive species, the leave and forget rule is my preferred choice as it is easier to work your way up from 0 than any minus.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg120024#msg120024

The bigger issue is that NPRs tend to take issue with almost any kind of ship in their core systems, although a "small" (<11,000 tons) diplo ship in constant contact can overcome that issue in many cases, but probably it is better to maintain contact in a neutral system if possible. Often the NPRs will accompany their survey ships with a destroyer-sized diplo ship which sits at entry jump points, and if so this is a good target to park your own diplo ship next to.

Again, based on the diplomacy framework, to gain diplomatic points you need contact (same as the intelligence ones) therefore yours is a perfectly viable solution. That is why for both spying and diplomacy it is better to follow "rogue" ships rather than park yourself somewhere (unless for the above exception). On this matter, the 1.14 follow fix is really appreciated.

Eventually, you can always use ELINT and Diplomatic Modules on the same ship so that once your Ship is marked as a diplomatic vessel you may be able to perform both actions without causing too much disruption to the force.

[TheTalkingMeowth]

Spying on NPR homeworlds with ELINT modules is very possible and profitable. I do it all the time.

The EM signature of such worlds is absolutely gigantic, so it's quite possible to park an ELINT equipped vessel a couple hundred million kilometers away, step down the engines to 100km/s or so (depending on necessary speed to keep up with the planet), and watch. Stick big EM passives on the ship so you can see active sensors before they spot you and sneak away.

It's...maybe a bit exploitative of the AI, in that once it loses track of the spy ship it basically forgets the ship is present. No diplomatic impact and there is little effort spent trying to run them down.

[Froggiest1982]

Spying on NPR homeworlds with ELINT modules is very possible and profitable. I do it all the time.

I don't say it's not possible, but you would require 2 things:

Enough EM range to be out of the enemy sensor range
To get there and remain undetected from possible patrols, civilian lines, etc

I personally find the combination ELINT Diplomatic Module easier to manage and overall safer (the reason being that we actually have the Diplomatic exception string of code)

It's...maybe a bit exploitative of the AI, in that once it loses track of the spy ship it basically forgets the ship is present.

My guess is that the AI currently suffers the same bug/issue as the player and when it loses its contact the transition with the following order to the new one makes the AI not forgetting about the ship but lose contact entirely. As stated before and with more in-depth analysis, could be fair to assume that now the AI will be able to track down ships better and for longer. However, without Steve's confirmation that remains a wild and totally speculative guess.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=12523.msg152588#msg152588

I seem to remember that a sort of short-term memory is already implemented into the code, so if what you saying it's correct, it may be possible we are facing a bug similar to the one that was not recording the AMM capability of the enemy. So, again, without confirmation, it is easy to assume that the AI is not tracking properly the location of the missing contact, therefore not actively looking for the ship

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg119676#msg119676

As the records are actually in the DB, should be easy for the AI to lodge a request to investigate certain contacts with appropriate forces. Eventually, importance could be set considering how old is the contact, where it was made, and what sort of contact was (size, number of ships, and more). The AI could then dismiss contacts already investigated, too old, or simply deemed uninteresting. Again, assuming that it either doesn't actually do it already or, if it should, it may be bugged then.

[kilo (OP)]

I can see how a superior race can be fun in the game, but thinking about the situation, I came to the conclusion to set the NPR chance to 0 after this. I have them and 4 starting NPRs to worry about. This is plenty of fun for me.

PS: I still consider this to be some sort of unintended behavior of the game. I do not want to imagine what kind of tech the next species would have. This will only get worse over time.