Author Topic: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions  (Read 7248 times)

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Offline Iceranger

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Re: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2020, 02:33:50 PM »
Invaders are meant to be scary and deadly, and a game with reduced research rate is generally more challenging. So mixing the two is probably not going to help you when facing them.
 

Offline GodEmperor

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Re: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2020, 09:46:41 AM »
I like Invaders. They probably are responsible for most of my lost campaigns but i really like the idea of incredibly dangerous aliens that can solo your entire Empire navy.

Even if they are a death sentence on low research speed runs which are my favourite.
."I am Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt. I am known as a fair man, unless I am pushed.
You have just pushed me."
 

Offline nebbish

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Re: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2020, 12:23:14 PM »
Ha do I need to be worried? I am currently on year 113 also with a low % research (I think 20% or 10% do not have the game file here to check).  With a conventional start only on Ion Tech by now with invaders turned on.  No signs of invaders yet but currently in contact with 3 different NPRs.  1 seems peaceful, 1 not so much (had minor skirmishes with which he got the better of) and the other I have only seen one scout of.  If the invaders come I am okay with losing.  If i lose i lose  ;D

Just to double check would an ion tech design have any chance against an invader fleet? Is it just the ECM tech that is preventing hits for the anti missile spam mentioned in the first post.  I am presuming beams could do okay at point blank range?  My fleet is 100% laser beam and with decent speed for an ion tech fleet (over 300k tonnage of combat beam ships in tonnage roughly 20k each).  Currently R&D efforts are aiming for carriers and fighters for beam fighters to try to utilise a speed advantage.  My laser beam tech is my most superior tech after finding a planet early in the game with a beam tech bonus which i stuck 40 labs on.

 

Offline MuthaF

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Re: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2021, 07:49:07 AM »
Wow, i literally envy you. 
I have being trying to get invaders in Sol forever, way from before C# release and i only managed it once. . .
Kingdom for a Spawn Invader/Precursor option. . . .
 

Offline captainwolfer

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Re: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2021, 10:58:55 AM »
Ha do I need to be worried? I am currently on year 113 also with a low % research (I think 20% or 10% do not have the game file here to check).  With a conventional start only on Ion Tech by now with invaders turned on.  No signs of invaders yet but currently in contact with 3 different NPRs.  1 seems peaceful, 1 not so much (had minor skirmishes with which he got the better of) and the other I have only seen one scout of.  If the invaders come I am okay with losing.  If i lose i lose  ;D

Just to double check would an ion tech design have any chance against an invader fleet? Is it just the ECM tech that is preventing hits for the anti missile spam mentioned in the first post.  I am presuming beams could do okay at point blank range?  My fleet is 100% laser beam and with decent speed for an ion tech fleet (over 300k tonnage of combat beam ships in tonnage roughly 20k each).  Currently R&D efforts are aiming for carriers and fighters for beam fighters to try to utilise a speed advantage.  My laser beam tech is my most superior tech after finding a planet early in the game with a beam tech bonus which i stuck 40 labs on.
Haven't fought invaders, but judging by the fact you have ion tech you probably only have eccm 1 or 2, which means the invaders (with ECM 8 presumably) would be a nightmare. ECM reduces hit chance for missiles and beam weapons by (target ECM - attacker ECCM linked to fire control or built into missile) X 10 = amount that %hit chance is reduced by

So even at point blank, your fighters won't have more than 15%-20% hit chance, assuming you can't fit ECCM into them.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2021, 11:10:46 AM »
Ha do I need to be worried? I am currently on year 113 also with a low % research (I think 20% or 10% do not have the game file here to check).  With a conventional start only on Ion Tech by now with invaders turned on.  No signs of invaders yet but currently in contact with 3 different NPRs.  1 seems peaceful, 1 not so much (had minor skirmishes with which he got the better of) and the other I have only seen one scout of.  If the invaders come I am okay with losing.  If i lose i lose  ;D

Just to double check would an ion tech design have any chance against an invader fleet? Is it just the ECM tech that is preventing hits for the anti missile spam mentioned in the first post.  I am presuming beams could do okay at point blank range?  My fleet is 100% laser beam and with decent speed for an ion tech fleet (over 300k tonnage of combat beam ships in tonnage roughly 20k each).  Currently R&D efforts are aiming for carriers and fighters for beam fighters to try to utilise a speed advantage.  My laser beam tech is my most superior tech after finding a planet early in the game with a beam tech bonus which i stuck 40 labs on.
Haven't fought invaders, but judging by the fact you have ion tech you probably only have eccm 1 or 2, which means the invaders (with ECM 8 presumably) would be a nightmare. ECM reduces hit chance for missiles and beam weapons by (target ECM - attacker ECCM linked to fire control or built into missile) X 10 = amount that %hit chance is reduced by

So even at point blank, your fighters won't have more than 15%-20% hit chance, assuming you can't fit ECCM into them.

The invaders I encountered at 160% difficulty 40 years in had ECM 3. Somewhat disappointing.
 

Offline captainwolfer

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Re: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2021, 12:17:31 PM »
If the invaders only have ECM 3, then fighters would probably do okay, although I imagine fighter losses would be pretty large, so you would need a lot of fighter factories and quite a few academies so that you have enough of your lowest ranked military officers
 

Offline Gabethebaldandbold

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Re: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2022, 01:49:30 PM »
You can fight them once you get magneto-plasma engines. I do it way more often than I should. But you will need good ECCM andrange on your guns and BFCs. You can get viable warships on the 30kt-40kt range, going at 10.000-12.000km/s, but you will need large quantities of galicite, and you will need to make the engines on factories if you want the ships anytime soon. If you can be slightly faster than them, and have a decent chance of hitting them from 300.000 km, then any reasonable particle beam should give you the dps to come out on top with a 50%. You have tostart racing towards that from day one, expand your economy as fast as possible, have good military academies and tactical bonuses for your ships. But you will need a little luck with minerals. With 2 billion people, you sorta kinda can in the time frame you had, if all your starting tech is research speed, and the economy does good. Its a fun hell.
To beam, or not to beam.   That is the question
the answer is you beam. and you better beam hard.
 

Offline brondi00

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Re: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2022, 05:16:08 PM »
A level 20 necromancer
 

Online boolybooly

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Re: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2022, 06:49:34 PM »
Or a time ship, that would fix it!

Circular time is supposed to be part of BSG lore, though they never did tackle quite what that meant, before getting somewhat surreal, in the latest version. (My previous time travel suggestion for Aurora btw - http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=10464.0 )

Has anyone suggested applying the research multiplier to the invader timers? Just a thought.

If you keep backups OP and everyone, you can just revert and switch off the invaders until you are ready.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2022, 06:51:13 PM by boolybooly »
 

Offline Agraelgrimm

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Re: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2022, 01:37:52 AM »
In my humble opinion, next to impossible challenges are what makes a good player and create a shrewd mind. Weak challenges create confusion and inflates one's ego and when a worthy challenge appears, then it comes disbelief and erosion.
Now that applies to both life and games.
Its just a few lines of codes following a determined path, you are a sentient being, you can beat them if you want. You just need time, patience and enough thought devoted to that. And it would suggest for you to ignore the players telling you how to beat them and figure out your own way to do it, its the only way to become better.
 

Online boolybooly

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Re: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2022, 08:03:51 AM »
In my humble opinion, next to impossible challenges are what makes a good player and create a shrewd mind. Weak challenges create confusion and inflates one's ego and when a worthy challenge appears, then it comes disbelief and erosion.
Now that applies to both life and games.
Its just a few lines of codes following a determined path, you are a sentient being, you can beat them if you want. You just need time, patience and enough thought devoted to that. And it would suggest for you to ignore the players telling you how to beat them and figure out your own way to do it, its the only way to become better.

Strikes me invaders are the sort of thing you can take on if you feel you have mastered the mechanics (which I personally haven't) and would like to face a greater challenge than the other spoilers (which for the moment I wouldn't). I am sure there are many optimisations one can discover or invent which would make it possible to achieve what to a noob (which I am) might seem impossible. Not least adjusting research % to the max which, if research rate does not influence invader difficulty, would definitely give a player an edge, if they know what to do with it (which I don't)!

What I did get from reading around though was that invaders are a next level challenge, which is a good thing as its nice to have somewhere to go.
 

Offline TallTroll

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Re: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2022, 08:58:01 AM »
Invaders are definitely the hardest to deal with, as even the less advanced versions are disproportionately nasty, and they can be really very advanced. They are also quite proactive, so the challenge is not only having the capability to deal with them, but also having that capability in the right place at the right time
 
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Offline Gabethebaldandbold

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Re: Invaders are broken - a cautonary tale and some suggestions
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2022, 07:08:57 AM »
If you can outrange them with anything beam related, you can fortify your planets very well too, and that can give you bastions to manoeuvre around
To beam, or not to beam.   That is the question
the answer is you beam. and you better beam hard.