Author Topic: Cold War Comments Thread  (Read 74540 times)

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Offline Shinanygnz

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #345 on: March 05, 2021, 01:38:08 PM »
Not looking good for the Mintek.  Heavily outnumbered by D'Bringi F0, and they only get an even fighter duel if they bring just half with them.  Given the disparity in battleline weights, they are in deep do-do now the Alliance has a potential back door.  Might find themselves bottled up in home system until SBMHAWKS come along, or the Alliance wants to feed enough ships into a WP assault
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #346 on: March 05, 2021, 03:19:31 PM »
Not looking good for the Mintek.  Heavily outnumbered by D'Bringi F0, and they only get an even fighter duel if they bring just half with them.  Given the disparity in battleline weights, they are in deep do-do now the Alliance has a potential back door.  Might find themselves bottled up in home system until SBMHAWKS come along, or the Alliance wants to feed enough ships into a WP assault

This is all going to be dependent on lots of variables.  You are right as far as sheer numbers, but they don't always tell the tale.  For example, while the D'Bringi Alliance does have a larger fleet, they also have multiple commitments, such as guarding the border with the humans, maintaining the blockade at the warp point to the Mintek home world, and garrisoning their various species capitals.  The Mintek have a lighter load, since they can rely on their fixed defenses, at least in part, to defend their home system, freeing up their navy to attack or defend outside the home system.  It will also depend on the manner of their meeting. 

Kurt
 

Offline StarshipCactus

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #347 on: March 05, 2021, 05:48:45 PM »
I am seriously hoping the Mintek have a lot of success and destroy a good % of the invading fleet. The recovery time and cost will allow Humanity to catch up a little.
 

Offline Migi

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #348 on: March 06, 2021, 10:46:22 PM »
The Mintek fighter battle was brutal.
I didn't quite understand if the Mintek recommendations involve adding fighters to the warp point defenses or if they are going to be based at the homeworld.

With respect to ground combat, I hadn't considered the problem of orbital bombardment weapons causing planetary surrender. In Steve's writing the standard procedure is to ignore missile bombardment and start with beam bombardment to clear out beam STOs on the planet, then bring in ground units to take control of the surface.
I don't think I've seen any write ups of Aurora where planets surrender rather than face missile bombardment, but that might be partly due to the NPR AI.

I did think up a system for adding point defence fortification to planets (which you could track with excel or pen and paper) but I realised afterwards that once the defences are overcome the planet still has the same choice, keep up resistance despite the consequences or surrender. This again renders the ground forces somewhat moot.
The way to change the surrender calculation would require missiles (and probably all other weapons) to be less powerful vs populations, so that a fleet can't inflict a completely devastating amounts of damage once it has control of local space. This might be somewhat difficult to explain in universe given the events which have already happened, although I don't see why you couldn't implement it in a future campaign.

I've put the point defence fortification system below in case you are interested in implementing it.
Off-Topic: show

In Aurora C# to protect a colony from missiles you want point defence STOs. With enough point defence the attacker can't get any missiles through and is forced to attack with beam weapons. This (hopefully) means they can be targeted by beam STOs (assuming the attacker doesn't have longer range tech). With enough of both the planet is safe, otherwise the planet is vulnerable to beams or missiles.
Another aspect is that fortification makes units harder to hit, the way I think about it is that heavily fortified units have many prepared positions they can move between (via underground tunnels or something) rather than sitting in one place and piling up bigger dirt mounds or concrete layers to protect them. The maximum fortification level is based on unit type and whether they have construction units helping.
This means that STOs can survive beam bombardment by virtue of being difficult to hit regardless of what is shooting at them.
Finally you can't distinguish STOs from other ground units until they fire, which gives the defender the possibility of deceiving the attacker into thinking there are no long range STOs until they are well inside firing range.


You can implement this by having abstract levels of point defence fortification. Each level represents a hardened network of mobile vehicles with point defence weapons and radars for detection, statistically some useful fraction of the network is in the correct position to shoot the incoming missiles. The system remains hidden until activated.

Each level of point defence fortification provides some suitable amount of point defence (maybe 10 shots?) and costs a suitable amount to build and maintain. There should probably be some limit on how high the level can get and where you can build them (like a minimum population and body size, it would be difficult to have a vast network on a small asteroid).

Hits from missiles and beam weapons can degrade the point defence fortification, reducing its ability to protect the planet, but those shots don't necessarily destroy the units, they might just block tunnels or destroy firing platforms. This can be abstracted as hit points, when all hit points are lost the fortification is considered destroyed, the output should diminish as the fortification takes damage.
(This is somewhat difficult to calibrate without a firm number of shots it can fire and hit points, I'm assuming 10 each)
The simplest option would be to reduce the number of shots by the number of lost hit points.
Alternatively you could have a 50% chance of reducing the number of shots by the number of lost hit points.
Alternatively you could roll 2D6-2 and if the damage is larger than the number rolled then the output is reduced by the amount of damage (this might just be my penchant for bell curve distributions talking).

I think you mentioned that planets are divided into 6 hexes so you might want to keep track of defences in each hex separately, which could increase the amount of book keeping during a battle.

You then have a choice of duplicating this system with beam weapons or putting beam weapons on PDCs. Arguably you have the same choice for missiles. While they are already established in universe to be stationed on PDCs, that could simply be a strategic holdover based on outdated philosophies rather than new operational realities. Or you could make it a HT9 system so that everyone has an excuse for not having it researched yet.
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #349 on: March 07, 2021, 10:07:31 AM »
The Mintek fighter battle was brutal.
I didn't quite understand if the Mintek recommendations involve adding fighters to the warp point defenses or if they are going to be based at the homeworld.

You didn't understand because I didn't mention it <G>.  Neeron's recommendations were made from the point of view of supporting the fleet.  For system defense, the Mintek currently have a large, 257 space asteroid fort (almost as big as two superdreadnoughts) at the warp point.  This fort has thirty fighters, three armed pinnaces, and capital missile launchers. In addition, the latest version of their BS5 warp point defense base will have a small fighter complement as well.  Although it will take some time to refit all of those monsters.  The Mintek have plans to build a second asteroid fort to be placed in orbit over their home world, to defend the planet against anything that gets past the warp point defenses.   

Quote
With respect to ground combat, I hadn't considered the problem of orbital bombardment weapons causing planetary surrender. In Steve's writing the standard procedure is to ignore missile bombardment and start with beam bombardment to clear out beam STOs on the planet, then bring in ground units to take control of the surface.
I don't think I've seen any write ups of Aurora where planets surrender rather than face missile bombardment, but that might be partly due to the NPR AI.

Aurora is a different game, with different assumptions.  In Starfire, there has been a long standing debate on planetary defenses.  In Starfire, once a defending fleet has been forced to retreat, a planetary population is left with only its defenses to prevent invasion or catastrophic bombardment.  Those defenses can be, in order, orbital fortresses, Planetary Defense Centers (PDC's), and troops.  The orbital defenses and PDC's are armed with the same weapons that a fleet is, and so have the same advantages and disadvantages that the fleet does.  In Starfire, weapons range is critical, nowhere more so than with planetary defenses.  Your big, expensive bases or PDC's become mere targets if the enemy fleet outranges their weapons, and yet, typically, players will refit their fleet with the latest weaponry first, only later refitting defenses, if ever.  Also, PDC's present a particular problem.  To engage the PDC's, a fleet will necessarily have to bombard the planet, and there will be collateral damage to the population.  A PDC on the surface of an inhabited world invites planetary bombardment.  Indeed, David Weber's Terran Federation, the main human race in the Starfire source material, refuses to build PDC's on inhabited planets for that very reason.  Better to have the planetary population surrender undamaged, to be retaken later, than suffer catastrophic bombardment.   Indeed, there are rules for that. 

Quote
I did think up a system for adding point defence fortification to planets (which you could track with excel or pen and paper) but I realised afterwards that once the defences are overcome the planet still has the same choice, keep up resistance despite the consequences or surrender. This again renders the ground forces somewhat moot.
The way to change the surrender calculation would require missiles (and probably all other weapons) to be less powerful vs populations, so that a fleet can't inflict a completely devastating amounts of damage once it has control of local space. This might be somewhat difficult to explain in universe given the events which have already happened, although I don't see why you couldn't implement it in a future campaign.

I've put the point defence fortification system below in case you are interested in implementing it.
Off-Topic: show

In Aurora C# to protect a colony from missiles you want point defence STOs. With enough point defence the attacker can't get any missiles through and is forced to attack with beam weapons. This (hopefully) means they can be targeted by beam STOs (assuming the attacker doesn't have longer range tech). With enough of both the planet is safe, otherwise the planet is vulnerable to beams or missiles.
Another aspect is that fortification makes units harder to hit, the way I think about it is that heavily fortified units have many prepared positions they can move between (via underground tunnels or something) rather than sitting in one place and piling up bigger dirt mounds or concrete layers to protect them. The maximum fortification level is based on unit type and whether they have construction units helping.
This means that STOs can survive beam bombardment by virtue of being difficult to hit regardless of what is shooting at them.
Finally you can't distinguish STOs from other ground units until they fire, which gives the defender the possibility of deceiving the attacker into thinking there are no long range STOs until they are well inside firing range.


You can implement this by having abstract levels of point defence fortification. Each level represents a hardened network of mobile vehicles with point defence weapons and radars for detection, statistically some useful fraction of the network is in the correct position to shoot the incoming missiles. The system remains hidden until activated.

Each level of point defence fortification provides some suitable amount of point defence (maybe 10 shots?) and costs a suitable amount to build and maintain. There should probably be some limit on how high the level can get and where you can build them (like a minimum population and body size, it would be difficult to have a vast network on a small asteroid).

Hits from missiles and beam weapons can degrade the point defence fortification, reducing its ability to protect the planet, but those shots don't necessarily destroy the units, they might just block tunnels or destroy firing platforms. This can be abstracted as hit points, when all hit points are lost the fortification is considered destroyed, the output should diminish as the fortification takes damage.
(This is somewhat difficult to calibrate without a firm number of shots it can fire and hit points, I'm assuming 10 each)
The simplest option would be to reduce the number of shots by the number of lost hit points.
Alternatively you could have a 50% chance of reducing the number of shots by the number of lost hit points.
Alternatively you could roll 2D6-2 and if the damage is larger than the number rolled then the output is reduced by the amount of damage (this might just be my penchant for bell curve distributions talking).

I think you mentioned that planets are divided into 6 hexes so you might want to keep track of defences in each hex separately, which could increase the amount of book keeping during a battle.

You then have a choice of duplicating this system with beam weapons or putting beam weapons on PDCs. Arguably you have the same choice for missiles. While they are already established in universe to be stationed on PDCs, that could simply be a strategic holdover based on outdated philosophies rather than new operational realities. Or you could make it a HT9 system so that everyone has an excuse for not having it researched yet.


Interesting.  I have long played around with the idea that if drive-fields didn't work in atmosphere combined with a gravity well, then that would change the equation.  After all, if the missiles that every fleet is equipped with didn't work any more, then the threat of bombardment is negated without special equipment and surrender would no longer be automatic.  I always get lost in trying to devise a combat system that is abstract enough to cover an entire planet, but yet still detailed enough to be interesting. 

For now I've decided to continue pushing forward with the current hybrid system from the later Starfire products that I've been using. 

Kurt
 
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Offline Gyrfalcon

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #350 on: March 07, 2021, 11:43:03 PM »
The quick puncture to the drive field issue - the drive field only has to get the missile going and up to speed, and then it can be shut down and physics will take over as the missile continues towards the planet on inertia. Or even if its an Aurora-like 0.2c to 0 stop on a dime, placing the missiles in a decaying orbit would let the planetary gravity pull them in. It’d take calculations to land the weapons on target, but PDCs are static targets so it would be doable.
 

Offline Andrew

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #351 on: March 08, 2021, 04:28:02 AM »
I believe that in starfire physics when the drive field is dropped/destroyed an object stops moving as it does not develop a real velocity under the drivefield. So if an atmosphere stops the drive field standard starfire missiles would be fairly ineffective against a planet particularly if there is any point defense as a missile moving under gravity would be an easy kill compared to a drivefield missile at soemthing like .9c
 

Offline misanthropope

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #352 on: March 08, 2021, 07:48:07 AM »
zero velocity in all frames of reference!  whoever said weber was a hack?
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #353 on: March 08, 2021, 08:45:50 AM »
Yes, if the drive field goes down the object "stops moving", as problematic as that is.  And I believe that was a Marvin Lamb ruling, not a David Weber thing.  The problem was, if the object doesn't stop, then relativistic bombardment becomes simple.  Just attack a drive field generator to an asteroid, get it up to two or three percent of the speed of light, and crack any handy planet.  Or base, or asteroid fort, or whatever can't dodge. 

By making such a ruling you create all sorts of logical issues, of course.  What is "stopping"?  In what frame of reference?  Relative to what?  However, that ruling did eliminate the relativistic bombardment issue which could have broken the game. 

Kurt
 

Offline Andrew

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #354 on: March 08, 2021, 09:51:50 AM »
Yes Starfire is a game first with technobabble to explain what was neessary for a game to work. I seem to remember drive field based kinetic kill weapons used from orbit and by ground troops with very high pseudo velocities for less damaging weapons than massed nuclear bombardment. Also in ISW-4 when they used asteroids as kinetic weapons to eradicate life on planets they were moved with an Orion drive not a drive field.
As drive field technology seems to be linked to warp points which seem to be anchored to stars the simplest answer seems to be that without a drive field a ship comes to rest in the frame of reference of the star , which still causes some problems when taking up orbits around planets and similar
 

Offline Migi

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #355 on: March 08, 2021, 11:42:42 AM »
Yes, if the drive field goes down the object "stops moving", as problematic as that is. 
(snip)
By making such a ruling you create all sorts of logical issues, of course.  What is "stopping"?  In what frame of reference?  Relative to what?
My concern is not with something as esoteric as a reference frame but simple conservation of energy.
To stop a moving object you need to apply force opposite to the direction of travel, to stop it more or less instantly you need a very large force.
A drive which can generate those sort of forces doesn't sound like a drive which is no longer functional eg due to battle damage.

It all sounds like it needs a big "non-Newtonian" disclaimer applied.

On another note, are there any races which are interested in planet sniping, or is that considered too dishonourable? The humans spring to mind given how they came pretty close to having their home planet conquered and the political situation trending xenophobic.
 

Offline Black

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #356 on: March 08, 2021, 12:03:33 PM »
I am not sure humans would be willing to nuke planets, the navy personnel had to deal with consequences of nuked planet and I am not sure they would do it to someone else, especially while Ruston is in command.
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #357 on: March 09, 2021, 08:27:54 AM »
I am not sure humans would be willing to nuke planets, the navy personnel had to deal with consequences of nuked planet and I am not sure they would do it to someone else, especially while Ruston is in command.

This is essentially correct.  The destruction of much of Earth was traumatic, and the ongoing export of emigrants to the rest of the colonial territories ensures that the knowledge of the horrors and sheer destructiveness of the bombardment are kept fresh.  The Fleet, as it stood at the time of the destruction of the USSR and the Coalition, stood against the madness that led to the end, and is dead set against that happening again. 

However, that being said, there is a growing anti-alien sentiment throughout the colonial territories, given voice by the New Dawn movement.  There are those within New Dawn that would not flinch at bombarding aliens to achieve their ends, as they are alien. 

Kurt
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #358 on: March 09, 2021, 08:34:06 AM »
Yes, if the drive field goes down the object "stops moving", as problematic as that is. 
(snip)
By making such a ruling you create all sorts of logical issues, of course.  What is "stopping"?  In what frame of reference?  Relative to what?
My concern is not with something as esoteric as a reference frame but simple conservation of energy.
To stop a moving object you need to apply force opposite to the direction of travel, to stop it more or less instantly you need a very large force.
A drive which can generate those sort of forces doesn't sound like a drive which is no longer functional eg due to battle damage.

It all sounds like it needs a big "non-Newtonian" disclaimer applied.

On another note, are there any races which are interested in planet sniping, or is that considered too dishonourable? The humans spring to mind given how they came pretty close to having their home planet conquered and the political situation trending xenophobic.

Currently, the D'Bringi and the Colonial Union are both dead-set against planetary bombardment, although for different reasons.  The D'Bringi want to civilize races they encounter, and incorporate them within the Alliance, while the Colonial Union feels that it is morally wrong based on what happened to Earth.  The Colonial Union, as it stands now, would be more likely to react negatively to another race committing genocide, while the D'Bringi would be more likely to merely note that the offending race is unstable and to be avoided. 

The Mintek, also, are dead set against planetary bombardment, as they view every planet has being filled with lost souls that must be saved.  Killing them without trying to bring them to the light would be about as bad a thing as a Mintek could do.  They would be appalled by another race committing such an atrocity, and would strive to end such a threat to the faithful. 

The Rehorish and the Bjering are much more comfortable with the concept, although that doesn't mean that they would use it indiscriminately.  For them it would be considered on a case by case basis, based on the situation as it stood a the time. 

Kurt
 
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Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #359 on: March 13, 2021, 12:22:51 PM »
A note to anyone who is interested.  The Cold War universe has reached a size and complexity that is making it harder for me to keep track of on-going events.  And I feel that if I'm having a problem keeping track of events, then I'm probably not communicating them very well either.  Therefore, I'm going to change the format a bit to hopefully make things easier to track.  From now on, instead of making posts with general events for all of the races, I'll be making at least one post for every ten turn period for each race/alliance.  Sometimes these posts will cover events covering multiple races or alliances, as they interact with each other.  And I'll continue doing the general updates every ten turns, as I think that helps everyone see where each race/alliance is in the overall scheme of things. 

I think this will allow everyone, including me, to see the progress of each alliance better.  Hopefully. 

Kurt
 
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