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Posted by: serger
« on: August 06, 2021, 03:11:44 PM »

I see the crew requirements as the need not only for manpower, but also the various food stuffs, etc. The "Life Support" as it were.

Well, then try to decrease food volume requirements by dropping Deployment Time. A math is a math indeed.
(It was possible in VB, AFAIRC, but it's not in C#.)

Also, I feel as though the comparisons to wet water ships are relatively poor. In space, it is far and above more difficult to maintain things. Whether Real Space or the Aether, starships of any stripe are very likely to be significantly more difficult to maintain and need significantly more supplies to keep those crew members alive.

One bad gasket can be the difference between life and a slow, quite possibly painful, death.

As it was mentioned by Droll, submarines are not less dangerous comparing to space ships, yet their crew requirements are nearly the same as for surface ships.
Really, even if some environment is more dangerous - it's not a cause to think that you need more crew there, these things are completely different.

In addition, deep space really isn't more dangerous comparing to deep sea even for surface ships: you cannot survive in both of those environments without uncrippled bulky equipment, and in the same time deep space is much more quiet and predictable environment comparing to deep sea - especially for mechanics inside the hull.
Posted by: Droll
« on: August 06, 2021, 01:42:49 PM »

--- Well, since y'all jacked my thread I guess I'll weigh in on this myself. ;D I see the crew requirements as the need not only for manpower, but also the various food stuffs, etc. The "Life Support" as it were. Also, I feel as though the comparisons to wet water ships are relatively poor. In space, it is far and above more difficult to maintain things. Whether Real Space or the Aether, starships of any stripe are very likely to be significantly more difficult to maintain and need significantly more supplies to keep those crew members alive.

One bad gasket can be the difference between life and a slow, quite possibly painful, death.

I think comparisons to wet navy still is fine though, not because of surface ships but because submarines exist. Submarines have been lost to a crewmember flushing the toilet wrong.
Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: August 06, 2021, 12:32:36 PM »

 --- Well, since y'all jacked my thread I guess I'll weigh in on this myself. ;D I see the crew requirements as the need not only for manpower, but also the various food stuffs, etc. The "Life Support" as it were. Also, I feel as though the comparisons to wet water ships are relatively poor. In space, it is far and above more difficult to maintain things. Whether Real Space or the Aether, starships of any stripe are very likely to be significantly more difficult to maintain and need significantly more supplies to keep those crew members alive.

One bad gasket can be the difference between life and a slow, quite possibly painful, death.
Posted by: serger
« on: August 06, 2021, 11:49:58 AM »

Well... I can understand a reason to do smth a bit simpler just because you are one man and it's rather complicated game. Yet I cannot understand a reason to do a salto mortale when you need a morning run.
Mount more powerful (forced) engine on the same fighter with the same size and functions - and you'll suddenly need much more crew. Try to design some analog of modern supertanker (hundreds of ktons, year-long voyages through storms and unpredictable traffic - still only 15 to 50 crew required) - and you just cannot do it. On the contrary - add a bunch of box launchers, and your ship will became 10 times bigger, while her crew requirements will remain the same (and no more internal postal service, as you can see). It's all completely outside of your explanation. There is a limit in which we can pretend that a math is not a math.
Posted by: TallTroll
« on: August 06, 2021, 09:21:56 AM »

I think you are misunderstanding the crew requirements somewhat. Although in design, crew are directly tied to components, their work aboard a ship is not necessarily actually related to the component they are nominally brought in for, although larger pieces of equipment do also generally require more crew for maintenance and operational purposes. Larger ships and larger crews will also have requirements for various services which are totally ignored in Aurora, and that's what those "excess" crew are doing. Rather than have additional crew requirements crop up as a design increases it's need for non-combat maint/cleaning crew, cooks, laundry service, police, medical services, internal postal service (yes, this is a real thing on larger IRL warships) and so on and so forth, it's all just subsumed into the crew requirements of the major combat components
Posted by: serger
« on: June 08, 2021, 04:52:24 AM »

On commercial engine sizes. I think it's rather doubtful mechanics now, that large engines need very large crews. It's some sort of coal epoch way of thinking: the more power, the more stokers you need. It's rather strange for space ship with nuclear power to have hundreds of crewmen to service it's engines, and even more strange to have linear dependence between engine power and crewmen needed. Is there any need to stoke nuclear fuel with shovels seriously?!

Not that it looks strange with engines only - it seems that cannons in Aurora are pointing and reloading with muscle power too!

So, there are 2 obvious problems with curent mechanics:

1. There is no mean to make commercial couriers, buisness passenger craft, something like traffic control craft and so on. And I think Steve have no desire to make it possible, because it adds some complexities for the AI and, in addition, it can slowdown any campaign very quickly, so it's easier to fully abstract such commercial smallcraft activity.
Personally I have to add some lore about aether storms, that makes smallcraft spacefaring too dangerous if you have no mil-grade engines and very good trained pilots, and so I use no couriers (even military ones) and no small patrol or survey craft too in my latest campaigs.
So, make small commercial engines possible - and it will be possible to make all these commercial smallcraft (small engines with nearly no crew and no MSP!) to populate our systems with auxiliary traffic and slowdown our campaigns. Well, it will be up to you, player, really, just don't whine in a bug thread afterwards.

2. Large commercial ships are way more crew-devouring that it can be plausible. It's rather plausible that you cannot automate detection and tactics (although it's strange therefore that your officer's skills adds no bonus to missile fire and detection at all) and hangar ops, but engine service?.. The biggest real commercial engines at tankers and even liners need only several crewmen to service them during nearly year-long voyages.

So, what I think is possible to optimize with commercial engines aside of fuel usage (ramscoop tech) to get rid of those special rules:

Make nearly all components to use crewmen in nearly static way. There is no matter really (plausibly) if it's 1-ton nuclear gun or 1000-ton nucler gun: you need 1 or 2 operators anyway, because they doesn't need their muscles to rotate and reload it, and mechanically bigger gun isn't more complex than smaller one to know how to service it onboard. So the biggest components possible may need several more crewmen then smallest ones just for redundancy of service for expensive toys, no more.

Both military and commercial ships will become smaller (and those players who love smaller ships - will have them), but the smallest ones will lose much of their advantages: they will keep most of their tactical advantages of lesser detectability, they will be still very potent at sensor picket and necessary in independent patrol (especially with new spoiler race on) or tramp roles, but it will be much less sense in making swarms of destroyer-grade battle ships or harvesters to sit in hundreds on every gas giant and so on. Less flags needed - less performance and micro burden and strange elusive bugs for average player.
Posted by: Density
« on: June 07, 2021, 05:08:47 PM »

I wasn't trying to say that banning commercial engines from military craft is desirable, I'm saying that it's a probable consequence of infinite-fuel commercial engines.
Posted by: Droll
« on: June 07, 2021, 04:41:44 PM »

On Commercial Engines:
I'm in favor of changes that allow for smaller commercial engines. I don't dislike xeno's suggestion, but I don't know if it's the best way to facilitate that goal. Likewise with serger's suggestions. I see the appeal of a ramscoop (or whatever other explanation is used for fuelless commercial engines) to reduce player/AI special rule cases. The caveats there is that it reduces design choices (but I really don't know how large a % of the players enjoy balancing speed/fuel usage on their freighters) and there would need to be a check to prevent commercial engines on military craft (as I don't see it as desirable to allow fuelless engines on warships, no matter how slow they are; at that point you might as well get rid of fuel altogether). Granted, that second point is mitigated in that with seperate tech lines, an engine wouldn't be designated as commercial just because it's big and slow, and the game can already check for similar ship design rules. I also don't know if an additional tech line(s) are desirable for the overall goal (smaller commercial). Looking at how jump engines are handled, similar things can be done that way: toggle the design project to commercial, and it would alter other features (power per HS, max boost, etc).

I absolutely despise the idea of commercial engines not being allowed on military ships much like how I also don't like that we cant use multiple sizes of the same engine type on the same ship (there was a bug that allowed this).

I think it reduces the amount of designs that you can create and reduces player freedom. So if choosing between infinite-fuel commercials and the ability to put commercial engines on military ships I am always going to favor the latter.
Posted by: Density
« on: June 07, 2021, 03:44:07 PM »

Well, I've weighed in on jump shock, so here goes for the rest.

On the Transit Drive
--- The fuel thing is definitely the lynchpin to this suggestion. As given 1HS per fuel unit IS VERY, VERY broken. The idea was that ships might carry... 1~3... 5 units of fuel, tops? The whole idea was that this was to be a very limited resource. The concept that fuel storage got more expensive as it got more efficient was meant to reinforce that this was very powerful. The idea of a Transit Drive with 0 fuel built in was so that small ships could have a self jump drive for much less tonnage than a full on jump drive. The numbers would need to be tweaked... a lot, but the idea is that realistically speaking, a ship is not going over 3 Transit Jumps without being either absurdly expensive or cutting into mission tonnage, while a ships is NOT going over about 5 Transit Jumps without being absurdly expensive AND cutting significantly into mission tonnage.

The counterarguements that I agree with is that it doesn't matter how expensive it is, or that a ship that can do it 3+ times can't do anything else... it's that a ship that can do this 1 time is broken, as it has an ability that can easily counter an entire combat doctrine. As for a 0 fuel version to reduce tonnage compared to self jump drives, I'm also against that as it deprecates the utility of the jump drive efficiency tech line. By that I mean that with enough research, you can already make a 1hs jump engine that can jump any sized fighter.

That being said, I see the desire and utility for a way of transiting to distant secondary stars that don't already have stabilized lagrange points. The only way to reconsile this with my concern is for the transit drive to have a spin-up time: essentially the order to transit would also create an order delay before the transit. Which also happens to be one of the proposed mechanics many, many others have proposed for improving jump point transits. If that's doable (and it should be since the game can insert orders on more complicated criteria like auto-including lagrange points), then that's the only way I'm seeing of getting behind the transit drive.

On Pulse Sensors:
As things stand in the game now, we really aren't seeing continuous movement of objects. Actives show us where things are right now, and the game can also show us a movement trail extrapolated from the last snapshot. If someone wants to rp that sensors are providing a continuous feed of data or rp that sensors ping every 5 seconds, both fit with the current limits of the game. If someone really, really wants to rp that sensors ping less often... they can turn their actives on and off.

So, I really don't see the need for a new system. Even if it's implemented in a way that's well-balanced against existing active sensors, a big chunk of the players aren't going to use it or appreciate that it's there. At best it's a QoL improvement for the players who want to automate slower sensor pinging. At worst it's adding design choices for everyone including those who would rather keep things as they are now.

On Commercial Engines:
I'm in favor of changes that allow for smaller commercial engines. I don't dislike xeno's suggestion, but I don't know if it's the best way to facilitate that goal. Likewise with serger's suggestions. I see the appeal of a ramscoop (or whatever other explanation is used for fuelless commercial engines) to reduce player/AI special rule cases. The caveats there is that it reduces design choices (but I really don't know how large a % of the players enjoy balancing speed/fuel usage on their freighters) and there would need to be a check to prevent commercial engines on military craft (as I don't see it as desirable to allow fuelless engines on warships, no matter how slow they are; at that point you might as well get rid of fuel altogether). Granted, that second point is mitigated in that with seperate tech lines, an engine wouldn't be designated as commercial just because it's big and slow, and the game can already check for similar ship design rules. I also don't know if an additional tech line(s) are desirable for the overall goal (smaller commercial). Looking at how jump engines are handled, similar things can be done that way: toggle the design project to commercial, and it would alter other features (power per HS, max boost, etc).
Posted by: serger
« on: June 07, 2021, 04:10:29 AM »

Jump Shock preventing ships from jumping at all - it's, I think, very needed mechanics: it's killing several potential game-breaking infinite loop scenaries with AI ships jumping back and forth every tick and, in addition, it's negating trivial tactics of baiting AI at JP, that AI cannot use or withstand, and the less such small exploits the better.
I'd propose not only a necessary cooldown, but also a necessary several-minutes warming up time to make this effect more resilient.

As for inter-system transit drives and pulse sensors - I think it will add too much difficulties for the AI; my stable opinion that we need no such burden on Steve's free time for any small additional time-to-time opportunities.

The last proposition - I doubt if I understand correctly the intention of this suggestion. I think commercial components mechanics is intended for RP-plausibly mitigation of micro burden. In this sense I think current mechanics isn't very good, because it's non-plausible arbitral breaking points (50% efficiency and 25HS), but it's simple and familiar roughness of mechanics, why to make it more complicated and less familiar for players?
My strong opinion is that the best change to commercial engines mechanics will be to just make them separate tech line (the same as for all other mil/com techs), ideally with ramscoop capability (i.e. no sorium needded) to mitigate AI complexities (so player's navy, commercials and NRPs will play by less different rules).
Posted by: Density
« on: June 06, 2021, 11:34:47 PM »

--- I honestly agree with all of that... in hindsight it would be a terrible change. :( That said I STILL maintain that I'd really, really like to see Jump Shock prevent a ship from Jumping while under the effects of it.

This is supposed to be implemented...I see this effect on my survey ships all the time as they jump into a new system and must wait some time before being able to jump out. I've never tried to see what happens with a squadron jump (usually when I do these I have other things on my mind...) but if it does not also prevent immediate re-jumping it should be submitted as a bug.

However the NPRs are allowed to jump with no cooldown as a compensation for their poor AI, so we do need to separate out player race (if you can jump immediately after jumping, it is a bug and should be reported) and NPR (not a bug, only an unfortunate compromise) behaviors.

The huge problem with jump shock right now is that based on player reports it seems that ships with 100% trained crews can more or less ignore its effects entirely, which rather defeats the point of the whole mechanic and makes fleet training excessively powerful - and unlike some exploits this one cannot really be avoided as ships gain training% over time even if not under a TRN admin command.

I've squadron jumped my survey ships plenty of times, and the ones in service long enough to have max training and grade still have a delay in jumping back. So I'm confident that jump shock does disable jump engines along with active sensors and fire controls.

So really, what's being talked about is flagging ships affected by jump shock so that they either can't be squadron jumped (regardless of the ship doing it), or can't be jumped at all.

As for the current durations being a problem, there are ways of changing that just by Steve fiddling with the math (extending the base times, reducing the effect of crew grade/training, etc) without inventing new criteria (like displacement, # of ships, and so on).
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: June 06, 2021, 10:02:41 PM »

--- I honestly agree with all of that... in hindsight it would be a terrible change. :( That said I STILL maintain that I'd really, really like to see Jump Shock prevent a ship from Jumping while under the effects of it.

This is supposed to be implemented...I see this effect on my survey ships all the time as they jump into a new system and must wait some time before being able to jump out. I've never tried to see what happens with a squadron jump (usually when I do these I have other things on my mind...) but if it does not also prevent immediate re-jumping it should be submitted as a bug.

However the NPRs are allowed to jump with no cooldown as a compensation for their poor AI, so we do need to separate out player race (if you can jump immediately after jumping, it is a bug and should be reported) and NPR (not a bug, only an unfortunate compromise) behaviors.

The huge problem with jump shock right now is that based on player reports it seems that ships with 100% trained crews can more or less ignore its effects entirely, which rather defeats the point of the whole mechanic and makes fleet training excessively powerful - and unlike some exploits this one cannot really be avoided as ships gain training% over time even if not under a TRN admin command.
Posted by: ISN
« on: June 06, 2021, 08:46:47 PM »

Am I misreading this or would the transit drive make long-range missiles completely unviable as a strategy against any fleet employing them? Just wait until the enemy has emptied their magazines and then jump away while the missiles are en route. Granted a clever player could get around this -- fire only a few salvos to provoke the enemy into wasting their scarce jumps -- but I doubt the AI could do this very well, and players hardly need more advantages over the AI. I appreciate the attempt to explore radically different game mechanics (and I'm certainly in favor of rebalancing missiles!), but I think this mechanic would integrate terribly with the rest of the game.
Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: June 06, 2021, 08:28:38 PM »

--- The fuel thing is definitely the lynchpin to this suggestion. As given 1HS per fuel unit IS VERY, VERY broken. The idea was that ships might carry... 1~3... 5 units of fuel, tops? The whole idea was that this was to be a very limited resource. The concept that fuel storage got more expensive as it got more efficient was meant to reinforce that this was very powerful. The idea of a Transit Drive with 0 fuel built in was so that small ships could have a self jump drive for much less tonnage than a full on jump drive. The numbers would need to be tweaked... a lot, but the idea is that realistically speaking, a ship is not going over 3 Transit Jumps without being either absurdly expensive or cutting into mission tonnage, while a ships is NOT going over about 5 Transit Jumps without being absurdly expensive AND cutting significantly into mission tonnage.

So I got quite far into writing a post full of (hopefully) constructive criticism but I am suddenly unsure if I correctly understood the premise of the transit drive. I just noticed something quite significant that requires clarification. Like completely changes the nature of what it is that we are talking about.

In your OP you said that the Transit Drive "allows instant transit between points within a system". Were you referring to jump points specifically? As in, this drive would allow a ship to use an existing jump point but instead of emerging in a different system, it emerges from a different jump point in the same system? You didn't specify jump points so I, and possibly others, interpreted it to mean arbitrary points. As in, this drive lets you move instantly, from anywhere, to anywhere else, in the same system.

Intent unclear. Foot nearly put in own mouth. Please advise.

 - Lol I'm really bad at explaining these things ;D, the idea was that the Transit Drive would let you go from one part of a system to any other part of a system for one unit of "fuel". You wouldn't need Jump Points to do it, you could just jump to anywhere in the system. The thing is, and I ALSO forgot to include this because I'm a friggin' moron, is that in Aurora you can only have one Jump Drive, and the Transit Drive would count as such. That's also why I mentioned it having higher Jump Shock overall when used to transit an actual Jump Point. If you transited a Jump Point with a Transit Drive, then no, you couldn't jump out just anywhere, but you could do that afterwards by expending a unit of "fuel". Each transit requires that fuel, so to go there and back would require two units of fuel. The entire thing is only balanced if it is prohibitive / impossible to mount enough fuel, be that special fuel or just the normal stuff that we already have, to Transit Jump no more than a handful of times. At it cannot transit a group either, so EVERY ship that wants to Transit would need one. This would also mean that, conversely, unless every ship in the fleet has a Transit Drive than NONE of them can.

 - With regards to fuel, having a special unit would require an entirely new production / logistical chain, but for a very powerful (overpowered even) ability. Having it consume normal fuel, but in extreme quantities will suddenly make it useful only for niche designs. I like both ideas, but to be honest I'm kind of liking having it use regular fuel in extreme amounts as it gives Underway Replenishment tech a little bit of extra utility and gives some extra flavor to tankers.

I appreciate the clearer explanation. However, it doesn't really change any of the issues I have with it:
  • Scaling jump shock with ship size is a very harsh nerf to larger ships, which is very much not needed in the current state of the game as larger ships already have significant strategic drawbacks (shipyards, maintenance, research, etc.) even if they are a bit more efficient tactically.
  • Jump shock is already supposed to affect all ships in a squadron or fleet, so it already scales with squadron/fleet size at exactly 1:1 net effect (if it doesn't that is a bug and needs to be reported and patched). There isn't any need to add an extra multiplier - especially because this modifier basically punishes people for using higher techs in the Jump Squadron Size tech line (which by the way already has a drawback because jump drives with a larger squadron size are larger and more expensive). Why should players be punished for using higher techs? They should not, as long as they are able to pay the costs of using that tech in the first place - i.e., researching the jump drives and building ships that can carry them.
  • There's no real counterplay to these mechanics. The only way to avoid mitigate the 1.25x modifier, for example, is to use smaller jump squadrons, and since the jump shock effect is principally a tactical drawback to make jump point assaults an actual challenge, and using fewer non-jump ships per squadron is also a tactical drawback, the result is not an interesting gameplay decision. In the end one way will be strictly superior either due to pure numbers gaming or due to strategic costs. Most of the good gameplay decisions in Aurora come from balancing tactical and strategic factors, not from making the player pick their poison.
The overall point is, a game mechanic which consists solely of punishing the player for the sake of verisimilitude is a bad game mechanic. That isn't saying that punishing the player is bad - mineral crunches or being outmatched in a battle are punishing, but also logical consequences of other game mechanics and player actions. Making large ships suffer more jump shock just because it seems more realistic doesn't fit this bill - it might make sense if it was needed for game balance, but at least as things stand right now that is not the case.

 --- I honestly agree with all of that... in hindsight it would be a terrible change. :( That said I STILL maintain that I'd really, really like to see Jump Shock prevent a ship from Jumping while under the effects of it. The intention of that suggested change was to make add more distinction between big ships and small ships with regard to Jump Point assaults. There were a lot of things wrapped up in that statement, but given that the changes would not achieve said goals anyway I'll leave them out.
Posted by: Foxxonius Augustus
« on: June 06, 2021, 05:24:52 PM »

--- The fuel thing is definitely the lynchpin to this suggestion. As given 1HS per fuel unit IS VERY, VERY broken. The idea was that ships might carry... 1~3... 5 units of fuel, tops? The whole idea was that this was to be a very limited resource. The concept that fuel storage got more expensive as it got more efficient was meant to reinforce that this was very powerful. The idea of a Transit Drive with 0 fuel built in was so that small ships could have a self jump drive for much less tonnage than a full on jump drive. The numbers would need to be tweaked... a lot, but the idea is that realistically speaking, a ship is not going over 3 Transit Jumps without being either absurdly expensive or cutting into mission tonnage, while a ships is NOT going over about 5 Transit Jumps without being absurdly expensive AND cutting significantly into mission tonnage.

So I got quite far into writing a post full of (hopefully) constructive criticism but I am suddenly unsure if I correctly understood the premise of the transit drive. I just noticed something quite significant that requires clarification. Like completely changes the nature of what it is that we are talking about.

In your OP you said that the Transit Drive "allows instant transit between points within a system". Were you referring to jump points specifically? As in, this drive would allow a ship to use an existing jump point but instead of emerging in a different system, it emerges from a different jump point in the same system? You didn't specify jump points so I, and possibly others, interpreted it to mean arbitrary points. As in, this drive lets you move instantly, from anywhere, to anywhere else, in the same system.

Intent unclear. Foot nearly put in own mouth. Please advise.