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Posted by: Vivalas
« on: June 25, 2022, 06:20:37 AM »

Nuclear missiles are set off by conventional explosives, but that doesn't mean that conventional explosions set of nukes. It has to be detonated in a very precise way to ensure prompt criticality without destroying the nuclear warhead in the process. Basically, if it's detonated in any way other than the precise way it's meant to be detonated, at worse you get a very nasty dirty bomb, but that's with all external forces somehow pushing the warhead inwards.

Also, a big challenge in early nuclear weapon design was ensuring that every single detonator went off at the same time. It's such a precise reaction that the small distance across the core is enough to introduce enough lag that you don't get your fun explosion. That's generally where the whole "you can't blow up nukes with bombs" thing comes from. It's a whole science just to get the things to detonate in the first place, let alone throwing explosives at one and hoping for the best.
Posted by: ArcWolf
« on: May 07, 2022, 03:35:31 PM »

Quote from: Andrew on May 05, 2022, 06:40:21 AM
This is an interesting and well researched video on the subject of exploding Hood's he has another one on exploding Arizona's

It is one of those interesting things it definetly blew up but why is hard to tell with so little remaining evidence

Drachinifel, a great channel btw, has a good video on the hood (among many many other great videos).

https://youtu.be/CLPeC7LRqIY

Anyways, i believe the prevailing theory is still a flash fire in the secondary powder magazine that spread due to flash doors being left open.
Posted by: Droll
« on: May 05, 2022, 11:31:13 AM »

Quote from: Andrew on May 05, 2022, 06:40:21 AM
This is an interesting and well researched video on the subject of exploding Hood's he has another one on exploding Arizona's

It is one of those interesting things it definetly blew up but why is hard to tell with so little remaining evidence

That's actually the video that I had watched and was somewhat referencing. I think the general thing that some people have already said in this thread is that the warheads themselves seldom explode but heat from fires can cause propellant and such to cook off, which is where the explosions happen, especially since the lack of easy escape routes for the heat can cause some insane pressure buildup.
Posted by: Andrew
« on: May 05, 2022, 06:40:21 AM »

This is an interesting and well researched video on the subject of exploding Hood's he has another one on exploding Arizona's

It is one of those interesting things it definetly blew up but why is hard to tell with so little remaining evidence
Posted by: ArcWolf
« on: May 02, 2022, 07:46:28 PM »

In any case, it's not the Shells/projectiles that explode with the magazine, but the propellent. In the case of Aroura, that would be the missiles fuel, which lets be real, it's easy to get missiles to 30,000 km/s, which is 10%C. If they have enough propellent to do that, they more then have enough propellent to vaporize the ship carrying them with out the nukes going off.
Posted by: Droll
« on: May 02, 2022, 07:22:09 PM »

Quote from: Andrew on May 02, 2022, 05:36:25 PM
Quote from: Migi on May 02, 2022, 05:17:16 PM

You stated that IRL magazines never suffer from explosions, which I rebut by referring you to the HMS Hood.

Exactly what blew up on the Hood is still uncertain , almost certainly not a main magazine, as the were not near the bit which blew up. Torpedo's or secondry/AA magazines are possible but
HMS Invincible and USS Arizona certainly had detonations or partial detonations of a main battery magazine from bomb or shell hits, the two other British BC's at Jutland died from magazine explosions probably not caused by magazine penetration but flash from turret hits and incompetent dangerous shell handling procedures
USS Maine, IJS Mutsu and numerous other ships over the years have blown up from spontaneous detonation of a Magazine

I was certain I had seen expolsions in fuel tanks in Aurora , I must be wrong oops

IIRC the most common theory for the HMS Hood is that the Bismarck got lucky and started cooking off the secondary battery magazine, which then found a way to cook into a nearby main battery magazine, heating that magazine up and cooking that off too.
Posted by: JacenHan
« on: May 02, 2022, 05:37:44 PM »

Quote from: Migi on May 02, 2022, 05:17:16 PM
You stated that IRL magazines never suffer from explosions, which I rebut by referring you to the HMS Hood.

They stated that nuclear missiles do not explode in their magazines, not that magazines in general do not explode, hence the inference that you were also discussing the same topic.

IMO this is a "rule of cool" thing that I highly enjoy: magazine explosions are more fun than no magazine explosions. It would be interesting if fuel acted the same way, though I feel like that might make it too easy to cause these kinds of critical hits.
Posted by: Andrew
« on: May 02, 2022, 05:36:25 PM »

Quote from: Migi on May 02, 2022, 05:17:16 PM

You stated that IRL magazines never suffer from explosions, which I rebut by referring you to the HMS Hood.

Exactly what blew up on the Hood is still uncertain , almost certainly not a main magazine, as the were not near the bit which blew up. Torpedo's or secondry/AA magazines are possible but
HMS Invincible and USS Arizona certainly had detonations or partial detonations of a main battery magazine from bomb or shell hits, the two other British BC's at Jutland died from magazine explosions probably not caused by magazine penetration but flash from turret hits and incompetent dangerous shell handling procedures
USS Maine, IJS Mutsu and numerous other ships over the years have blown up from spontaneous detonation of a Magazine

I was certain I had seen expolsions in fuel tanks in Aurora , I must be wrong oops
Posted by: Migi
« on: May 02, 2022, 05:17:16 PM »

Quote from: nuclearslurpee on May 02, 2022, 09:39:01 AM
Yeah, that is a load of... it. Even if the Moskva was carrying nukes, it is assured that any ammo explosion would have been from the dozens of conventional missiles she was also carrying.
Fortunately I never claimed the Moskva was carrying nukes so you can ignore the troll.

The news article I read said that the Moskva suffered a fire and a magazine explosion, but if that's not correct then either I misremembered the article, or the article was incorrect, or I didn't notice when the article ventured into speculation rather than sticking to factual reporting.

You stated that IRL magazines never suffer from explosions, which I rebut by referring you to the HMS Hood.

Quote from: Andrew on May 01, 2022, 05:09:52 PM
It seems likely that magazine explosions are actually the ignition and explosion of the Sorium fuel stored in the missiles as we know fuel tanks can explode, it is possible that the detonation of the Sorium produces a particle flux which also initiates a chain reaction in the warheads explaining why magazines explode more ferociously than fuel tanks.
This is contrary to the actual game mechanics, and therefore cannot be correct.
The amount of fuel on the missiles plays no role in determining the size or likelihood of a magazine explosion.
Additionally ship fuel tanks don't explode in Aurora, they just break like most other components.
Posted by: TheTalkingMeowth
« on: May 02, 2022, 03:39:40 PM »

Quote from: Andrew on May 02, 2022, 12:48:22 PM
...certainly nothing the Ukraine owns.

Side note, interesting piece of etymology. The preferred modern usage is "Ukraine" not "the Ukraine," because the old styling "the Ukraine" is derived from the fact that "ukraina" is a word for a border region. So, much like the way we in the US refer to "the Netherlands" (the lowlands) we would historically talk about "the Ukraine" (the borderlands...of Russia!). But the modern Ukrainian state prefers to drop the "the" as part of reasserting their independence after the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

I only learned this when the current crisis spawned a bunch of newspaper articles that didn't have the definite article. I thought it was a typo, but then it kept happening!
Posted by: Andrew
« on: May 02, 2022, 12:48:22 PM »

The observed damage to the Moskva is fire damage caused by the missile hits and their spare fuel.  The aft SAM's definetly did not explode as there is no sign of structural damage in the pictures and clear shots of that area. The forward area has heavy fire damage so the SSM's could have caught fire but given their huge conventional warheads there should probably be more structural damage if one of them went off, same for the forward ASW Mortars and Gun magazine not enough signs of structural damage forward for a major explosion but the pictures I have seen of the forward hull are not comprehensive enough to rule out some explosion forward.
The fire and the missile hits low on the hull are enough to explain the sinking particularly if watertight integrity not well maintained and hatches not sealed,  then the crew abandoned quickly with minimum attempts at damage control , ship sinks no need for a magazine or missile explosion onboard.

Theoretically the forward SSM's are nuclear capable in case you really want to try hard to kill an American CVN which is their designed job , however there would be no pressing reason for nuclear warheads to be carried and it would actually make sense not to have the SSM's onboard as there is nothing in the Black sea for them to be fired at and certainly nothing the Ukraine owns.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: May 02, 2022, 09:39:01 AM »

Quote from: brondi00 on May 02, 2022, 09:34:57 AM
Quote from: Migi on May 01, 2022, 01:55:29 PM
Quote
As far as magazines go, frankly the bigger strangeness is that nuclear missiles explode in the magazine at all, that is simply not how they work in real life

Tell that to the Moskva.

So wait, are you contending that the Moskva was transporting nuclear weapons and that those were set off by an attack and then there was a nuclear explosion inside the Moskva that sunk it!

Yeah, that is a load of... it. Even if the Moskva was carrying nukes, it is assured that any ammo explosion would have been from the dozens of conventional missiles she was also carrying.
Posted by: brondi00
« on: May 02, 2022, 09:34:57 AM »

Quote from: Migi on May 01, 2022, 01:55:29 PM
Quote
As far as magazines go, frankly the bigger strangeness is that nuclear missiles explode in the magazine at all, that is simply not how they work in real life

Tell that to the Moskva.

So wait, are you contending that the Moskva was transporting nuclear weapons and that those were set off by an attack and then there was a nuclear explosion inside the Moskva that sunk it!
Posted by: Andrew
« on: May 01, 2022, 05:09:52 PM »

While conventional explosives are the trigger for fission weapons which serve as the trigger for modern fusion weapons a magazine detonation is unlikely to initiate an nuclear reaction as the explosives e have to detonate in a very controlled sequence, so an initiation of nuclear warheads in a magazine his is exceptionally unlikely , unless the neutron flux from a detonating warhead managed to initiate the nuclear reaction before the other effects destroy them.
It seems likely that magazine explosions are actually the ignition and explosion of the Sorium fuel stored in the missiles as we know fuel tanks can explode, it is possible that the detonation of the Sorium produces a particle flux which also initiates a chain reaction in the warheads explaining why magazines explode more ferociously than fuel tanks.

Historically with magazines containing explosive shells detonation of the shells has historically been fairly rare and not the main cause of magazine explosions in the Arizona for instance salvage teams had to remove a lot of unexploded shells from the forward hull area after the detonation. What usually explodes is the large amount of propellent stored in these area's and particularly the primer charges intended to ignite that propellent even though these are kept seperate , if enough of them go off the explosion spreads and quite handily wrecks the ship involved
Posted by: Migi
« on: May 01, 2022, 01:55:29 PM »

Quote
As far as magazines go, frankly the bigger strangeness is that nuclear missiles explode in the magazine at all, that is simply not how they work in real life

Tell that to the Moskva.