Author Topic: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021  (Read 8355 times)

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Offline Andrew

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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2021, 01:54:18 PM »

[/quote]

No it wont, look at the maintenance profile, this thing will explode in orbit from maintenance failures. In fact, I'd argue this is worse than the design your supposed to be improving on.
[/quote]
I usually turn maintenance off , I thought I had stuffed a large enough number of engineering spaces in. My apologies
 

Offline Andrew

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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2021, 01:56:11 PM »
Also I am an absolute Incompetent. I had designed a 1000000 dreadnought but somehow posted a completely different ship. I feel even more embarrassed that had engineering spaces  :'( but I doubt I saved it.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2021, 02:17:23 PM »
Its built with the same low tech but should actually be able to fight other ships

No it wont, look at the maintenance profile, this thing will explode in orbit from maintenance failures. In fact, I'd argue this is worse than the design your supposed to be improving on.

He has stated that he plays with maintenance off. Ordinarily I'd consider that a reason to not post in these kinds of threads but given the particular design questions being discussed I think it is alright, with maintenance on the only real change would be to knock off a couple of laser turrets and add a couple dozen engineering rooms anyways.

Oh I wasn't aware, thing is I also play with maintenance off but I still put like 2-4 years of maintenance on my ships, I like to pretend that maintenance still somewhat matters, I just don't want the micro associated.

However, in this case I will still argue that even with no maintenance this was waaay to little MSP for the ship. 99 MSP on a 750 max repair 50k ton behemoth leaves no space for damage con to repair anything, so the no maintenance checkmark doesn't render MSP completely useless.
 

Offline Andrew

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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2021, 02:30:24 PM »
Code: [Select]
Atlantis class Superdreadnought      1 000 000 tons       14 161 Crew       91 680.9 BP       TCS 20 000    TH 60 288    EM 78 000
3014 km/s      Armour 16-890       Shields 2600-333       HTK 6670      Sensors 60/60/0/0      DCR 486      PPV 4 352
Maint Life 1.55 Years     MSP 27 848    AFR 16461%    IFR 228.6%    1YR 13 314    5YR 199 715    Max Repair 640 MSP
Magazine 26 340   
Earth Lord    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Gala-Decentius Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP384.00 (157)    Power 60288.0    Fuel Use 63.10%    Signature 384.00    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 194 052 000 Litres    Range 55.4 billion km (212 days at full power)
Captio-Viridio Beta S20 / R333 Shields (130)     Recharge Time 333 seconds (7.8 per second)

Captio-Viridio 12cm Railgun V20/C3/S2 (64x2)    Range 40 000km     TS: 3 014 km/s     Power 3.0-3     RM 20 000 km    ROF 5       
Captio-Viridio 10cm Railgun V20/C3 (122x4)    Range 20 000km     TS: 3 014 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 20 000 km    ROF 5       
Gaius & Lepontus Beam Fire Control R128-TS4000 (8)     Max Range: 128 000 km   TS: 4 000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 38 30 22
Calerus Thrust Pebble Bed Reactor R72 (8)     Total Power Output 579.3    Exp 5%

Balbillus Advanced Defence Systems Size 1 Missile Launcher (60)     Missile Size: 1    Rate of Fire 15
Balbillus Advanced Defence Systems Size 5 Box Launcher (5000)     Missile Size: 5    Hangar Reload 111 minutes    MF Reload 18 hours
Gaius & Lepontus Missile Fire Control FC19-R1 (10)     Range 19.1m km    Resolution 1
Gaius & Lepontus Missile Fire Control FC111-R200 (10)     Range 112m km    Resolution 200

Gaius & Lepontus Active Search Sensor AS34-R1 (2)     GPS 640     Range 35m km    MCR 3.1m km    Resolution 1
Gaius & Lepontus Active Search Sensor AS204-R200 (2)     GPS 128000     Range 204.5m km    Resolution 200
Gaius & Lepontus EM Sensor EM10-60 (1)     Sensitivity 60     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  61.2m km
Captio-Viridio Thermal Sensor TH10-60 (1)     Sensitivity 60     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  61.2m km

This is another version of the 1000000 ton low tech dreadnought with actual maintenance!!

I find repairs are rarely worthwhile, I have a tug following the fleet which can tow back damaged ships for repair, in practice I find I get few damaged ships and more dead ships so typically only 1 or 2 ships need repairing if I take light losses or heavy losses. Hence the lack of repair capability, others may feel differently.  I am aware of several other flaws with the 50,000 ton battleship, it is slow and has a sharp limit to how many missiles it can cope with even in a fleet it also is lacking several upgrades to deal with one of the spoilers which is currently getting the fleet hammerred
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2021, 04:36:38 PM »
I find repairs are rarely worthwhile

If your building normal ships which will be in the 1k to 30k range sure, but repairs actually become very worthwhile on a 1M ton behemoth that has 6k+ HTK since it'll be able to damage con components before it dies. 
 

Offline Andrew

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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2021, 05:04:48 PM »
A very valid point, my 50000 ton ships usually end up overkilled, a 1000000 ship would be different. On the other hand I would never actually build one
 

Offline Blogaugis (OP)

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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2021, 10:24:31 AM »
Range really does not matter for anti-missile defense. It would for Area Defense fire however I have never used it and never seen a way to make it viable someone else probably has. However all your fire controls should be set to final defensive fire, they will then engage the missiles at 10000 km , so make sure your weapons and fire control have that range.  CIWS is just locked on Final defense (self).

Those ship designs are huge for nuclear pulse engine tech, which is really primitive. Ships with that tech will be slaughtered by spoilers so you are probably better getting to a higher tech level before pouring resources into what are just big targets. I like big ships but those are a bit early for Nuclear pulse technology they are INCREDIBLY slow, 4000km/s would be fast 400km is slower than a snail.
Offensive beam weapons are pointless on such ships nothing will ever come in range unless it is able to kill you with beam weapons and given how short ranged your weapons are beam armed npr ships and spoilers will just sit outside your range and a single 7000 ton ship will kill your fleet.
Your missiles are also very slow do they have engine boost at all?
Building a Million ton ship is ambitious

This is my not particularly good Ion engined battleship
Code: [Select]
Empress of India class Battleship      50 000 tons       1 157 Crew       7 923.8 BP       TCS 1 000    TH 4 500    EM 10 650
4500 km/s      Armour 6-120       Shields 355-426       HTK 252      Sensors 11/11/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 256.96
Maint Life 0.00 Years     MSP 99    AFR 20000%    IFR 277.8%    1YR 63 087    5YR 946 311    Max Repair 750 MSP
Captain    Control Rating 3   BRG   AUX   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Elliott-French Aeromarine Ion Drive  EP1500.00 (3)    Power 4500    Fuel Use 29.93%    Signature 1500    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 6 282 000 Litres    Range 75.6 billion km (194 days at full power)
Mccarthy-Burton Delta S71 / R426 Shields (5)     Recharge Time 426 seconds (0.8 per second)

Twin Harvey-Davison Armaments Company 20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (12x2)    Range 256 000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 20-10     RM 40 000 km    ROF 10       
Twin Harvey-Davison Armaments Company 12cm C4 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (8x2)    Range 160 000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 8-8     RM 40 000 km    ROF 5       
Harrison-Stewart Electronics Industries Beam Fire Control R256-TS10000 (2)     Max Range: 256 000 km   TS: 10 000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Pickering-Hall Electronic Systems Beam Fire Control R128-TS20000 (2)     Max Range: 128 000 km   TS: 20 000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 38 30 22
Riley & Hope Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor R195 (1)     Total Power Output 195    Exp 5%

Sheppard Warning & Control Active Search Sensor AS112-R200 (1)     GPS 21000     Range 112.1m km    Resolution 200
Sheppard Warning & Control Active Search Sensor AS14-R1 (1)     GPS 63     Range 14.9m km    MCR 1.3m km    Resolution 1
Harrison-Stewart Electronics Industries EM Sensor EM1.0-11.0 (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  26.2m km
Moss Electronic Systems Thermal Sensor TH1.0-11.0 (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  26.2m km

(Maintenance is turned off as I am lazy but with maintenance it would just have a few less guns )

One of them will kill all of your fleet and take no damage. I lost 3 of them and several cruisers to spoilers earlier today and another spoiler may be about to wipe out my entire race .  Before planning huge ships get your research to above starting tech and probably build one type of weapon, you seem to be researching Gauss, Laser, and Meson . Pick one and maybe Gauss as well, but as many people will tell you 10cm railguns are more effective anti-missile weapons until gauss rate of fire 4(I still often use Gauss weapons and rarely use railguns but)

Also what are Cargo shuttles doing on a carrier? Just for RP reasons I assume
Final defense fire - noted.

Well, it's just 5 years in, with instant research points just 2000 - what do You expect?
These designs are more of a... starting point, from which to improve and upgrade.
Engine boost is at 200%, but they are already outdated, since the G1 was created during the Nuclear thermal Engine technology and G2 just Improved NT engine tech.

Yes, your battleship would have no issue in destroying my fleet. Considering that I am playing with maintenance on, your ship would be destroyed while traveling to combat zone, in my universe... And you created this design when? 25 years into the game?

Currently, the focus is now more towards the lasers and gauss cannons... And maybe missiles.

Cargo shuttles are relevant if you have cryogenic and troop transport modules on ships. At least, that what I more or less found out.
Konigsberg und Rheinland have too much fuel tanks for quite heavy armoured ships. There is really no need to keep all those fuel tanks under the armour, because you have to use fast tankers.

Consider giving those ships more Intended Deployment Time, because now they'll start losing combat effectiveness in the middle of the route (having half or more of the fuel unencumbered), even if all the route will be on full power, and while it can be harmless for assault ship - it's definitely not so for escort or patrolling task, and your escort carrier will be combat-inefective after 1/4 of full-power route.

Konigsberg's missile magazine is way too small for her launchers. Reloadable launchers are effective only with deeper magazines - smth like 4 reloads or more.

You are using single weapon short fire control while having 2 multi-weapon and more capable fire controls in the same ship. It's reasonable to have spare FC, but not single-weapon one on multi-weapon ship.

You have only 1 power reactor on Konigsberg - and all her beam batteries will be knocked off if it gets unlucky hit. I'll add spare reactor.

Missile FC of Konigsberg is twice longer-ranged of her radar and still cannot guide her missiles at more then half of their range. She also have no missile FC nor radar against small targets (like missile fighters/FACs).

Rheinland is way too heavy armoured for escort carrier - her hangar is cramped, she can be much more capable in her escort role with less armour and armament and more hangar space. Her CIWS will be incapable to protect escorted vessels - though it can be useful for self-defence against jump point missile ambush.

UPD. Ooompf. My free time is off before I can look at heavier ships of your last post.
I guess it is true for Konigsberg... But about carriers - aren't they also supplying their fighters with fuel? I'm even considering that Rheinland should also be classed as a tanker and collier... But oterwise, Rheinland might have a bit too much armor indeed.

I suppose I can give Rheinland more time while sacrificing some of her armor. But, new engines are already being developed.

Probably, I've chosen 1 reload, with smallest size reloadable missile launcher concept. I guess I could dump some missile launchers, leading to at least 2 reloads, at the cost of a smaller salvo...

Fire controls are divided by the weapon type (their range, most notably). I guess that in the future meson cannons will be dumped and replaced by lasers, meaning that there will be fewer but multi-weapon fire controls.

Reactor is fairly large and has a high HTK - they are designed larger for efficiency reasons, at the cost of having a backup. Put all the necessary power into just 1 reactor was and probably will stay as the main concept.

True, missile fire controls do need some help with target acquisition. New sensor development is a priority. She doesn't have a resolution 1 missile fire control, but HAS a res 1 Active Search Sensor. Missiles are designed to attack larger - res 50 size - targets.

Considering that her fighters will be made up of gauss-cannon-only carrying, I am sure the fighters themselves can provide a decent first line of defense against missiles and other small craft. If desperate, they can also be used against larger ships.
 

Offline Blogaugis (OP)

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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2021, 10:39:04 AM »
All your combat ships are way too slow even for your low tech. You need forced military engines! They are much smaller, so you'll fit more fuel tanks to hold decent range.

Deutschland (Heavy Cruiser) is armoured only 20% more heavily than twice smaller Konigsberg (Light Cruiser). I'd say it's Konigsberg is too heavy armoured, but... ow, Scharnhorst the Battlecruiser is armoured the same as Konigsberg and less then Deutschland, while Bismarck the Battleship is only 16% heavier-armoured then Deutschland (Heavy Cruiser)!
It's strange.

All your close combat ships have Cryogenic Berths... and no hangar space. I'd exchange Cargo Shuttle Bays for Boat Bays with some auxiliary craft to pick up rescue pods and land/evacuate troops they have onboard. It's rather reasonable to have troops onboard carriers too, as well as several landind-and-boarding shuttles (research if needed) in addition to combat wing.

Your battleships will have the same required commander rank as corvettes. Research command modules and use them on larger ships, also use relevant checkbox to raise required commander rank if there is no difference with command modules.

Your Light Carrier is not very carriery carrier. 16kt hangar of 50 kt ship means she's not very helpful for her close combat ships.

Light Carrier needs no Auxiliary Bridge, she needs Flight Control.

You have Particle Beam emitters on your capital ships. They are not turreted, so their track speed is limited by your ship's speed, which is anemic 400 km/s. They'll be able to hit orbital bases and maybe also commerce vessels if you hobble them with missiles, and no more.

And what are you planning to do with 50-km/s 1,000,000 tons Superdreadnought? You definitely have no tug able to drag this monster with a fleet, and with her own speed she cannot crawl out of Sol system in time!

Speaking of Titan designation - you can add any desirable hull type (aka designation) from design window.
Engine development with 100% power is underway.

Yes, I kind of wanted to make the armor levels be 1 armor point per 1000 tons, but it simply turned out to be either impossible with this armor tech (High Density Duranium Tech), or just simply do not allow a 100% usage of the reactor installed on the ship.

How big the auxiliary craft have to be, and what kind of modules does it have to have, in order to pick up lifepods?

Command module research is in plans...

I suppose some armor, again, could be sacrificed for more hangar space.

Research is in plans...

Particle beams are INTENDED as a longer range option for orbital bombardment, mostly.

Improve the design of course. It still has numerous flaws.

Oh! New Hull option gives this. Neat! And thank You.
 

Offline Blogaugis (OP)

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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2021, 11:25:01 AM »
Code: [Select]
Atlantis class Superdreadnought      1 000 000 tons       14 161 Crew       91 680.9 BP       TCS 20 000    TH 60 288    EM 78 000
3014 km/s      Armour 16-890       Shields 2600-333       HTK 6670      Sensors 60/60/0/0      DCR 486      PPV 4 352
Maint Life 1.55 Years     MSP 27 848    AFR 16461%    IFR 228.6%    1YR 13 314    5YR 199 715    Max Repair 640 MSP
Magazine 26 340   
Earth Lord    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Gala-Decentius Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP384.00 (157)    Power 60288.0    Fuel Use 63.10%    Signature 384.00    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 194 052 000 Litres    Range 55.4 billion km (212 days at full power)
Captio-Viridio Beta S20 / R333 Shields (130)     Recharge Time 333 seconds (7.8 per second)

Captio-Viridio 12cm Railgun V20/C3/S2 (64x2)    Range 40 000km     TS: 3 014 km/s     Power 3.0-3     RM 20 000 km    ROF 5       
Captio-Viridio 10cm Railgun V20/C3 (122x4)    Range 20 000km     TS: 3 014 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 20 000 km    ROF 5       
Gaius & Lepontus Beam Fire Control R128-TS4000 (8)     Max Range: 128 000 km   TS: 4 000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 38 30 22
Calerus Thrust Pebble Bed Reactor R72 (8)     Total Power Output 579.3    Exp 5%

Balbillus Advanced Defence Systems Size 1 Missile Launcher (60)     Missile Size: 1    Rate of Fire 15
Balbillus Advanced Defence Systems Size 5 Box Launcher (5000)     Missile Size: 5    Hangar Reload 111 minutes    MF Reload 18 hours
Gaius & Lepontus Missile Fire Control FC19-R1 (10)     Range 19.1m km    Resolution 1
Gaius & Lepontus Missile Fire Control FC111-R200 (10)     Range 112m km    Resolution 200

Gaius & Lepontus Active Search Sensor AS34-R1 (2)     GPS 640     Range 35m km    MCR 3.1m km    Resolution 1
Gaius & Lepontus Active Search Sensor AS204-R200 (2)     GPS 128000     Range 204.5m km    Resolution 200
Gaius & Lepontus EM Sensor EM10-60 (1)     Sensitivity 60     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  61.2m km
Captio-Viridio Thermal Sensor TH10-60 (1)     Sensitivity 60     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  61.2m km

This is another version of the 1000000 ton low tech dreadnought with actual maintenance!!

I find repairs are rarely worthwhile, I have a tug following the fleet which can tow back damaged ships for repair, in practice I find I get few damaged ships and more dead ships so typically only 1 or 2 ships need repairing if I take light losses or heavy losses. Hence the lack of repair capability, others may feel differently.  I am aware of several other flaws with the 50,000 ton battleship, it is slow and has a sharp limit to how many missiles it can cope with even in a fleet it also is lacking several upgrades to deal with one of the spoilers which is currently getting the fleet hammerred
Okay, let's compare our designs...
Code: [Select]
Atlantis class Titan      1,000,000 tons       12,333 Crew       118,294.2 BP       TCS 20,000    TH 1,000    EM 3,000
50 km/s      Armour 100-890       Shields 100-300       HTK 2688      Sensors 250/250/0/0      DCR 1363      PPV 1,959
Maint Life 7.58 Years     MSP 110,826    AFR 5867%    IFR 81.5%    1YR 3,396    5YR 50,933    Max Repair 937.5 MSP
Troop Capacity 5,000 tons     Magazine 200    Cargo 5,000    Cryogenic Berths 200    Cargo Shuttle Multiplier 1   
Captain    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

G3-CE Commercial Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP100.0 (10)    Power 1000    Fuel Use 8.94%    Signature 100    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 750,000 Litres    Range 1.5 billion km (349 days at full power)
Refuelling Capability: 50,000 litres per hour     Complete Refuel 15 hours
G1-CSS Alpha S10 / R300 Shields (10)     Recharge Time 300 seconds (0.3 per second)

G1-QLT Quad G1HS3 10cm C1 Infrared Laser Turret (30x4)    Range 30,000km     TS: 8000 km/s     Power 12-4     RM 10,000 km    ROF 15       
G1-PBHS5 Particle Beam-2 (72)    Range 60,000km     TS: 2,000 km/s     Power 5-1    ROF 25       
G1-CIWS-80 (40x4)    Range 1000 km     TS: 8,000 km/s     ROF 5       
G1-QGCT Quad G1-HS6-GC Gauss Cannon R200-100 Turret (20x8)    Range 20,000km     TS: 8000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 20,000 km    ROF 5       
G1-QMCT Quad G1MCHS3 R15/C1 Meson Cannon Turret (30x4)    Range 15,000km     TS: 8000 km/s     Power 12-4     RM 15,000 km    ROF 15       
G1-CSBFC Beam Fire Control R80-TS8000 (70%) (4)     Max Range: 80,000 km   TS: 8,000 km/s     88 75 62 50 38 25 12 0 0 0
G1-ELPP Improved Pressurised Water Reactor R312 (1)     Total Power Output 312.5    Exp 5%

G1-.3ML Size 5 Missile Launcher (30.0% Reduction) (10)     Missile Size: 5    Rate of Fire 6710
G1-CSSMFC Missile Fire Control FC227-R50 (70%) (1)     Range 227.7m km    Resolution 50
G1DF (40)    Speed: 7,000 km/s    End: 200.4m     Range: 84.2m km    WH: 2    Size: 5    TH: 23/14/7
Ordnance Transfer Rate: 40 MSP per hour     Complete Transfer 5 hours

G1-CSMASS Active Search Sensor AS30-R1 (70%) (1)     GPS 500     Range 30.9m km    MCR 2.8m km    Resolution 1
G1-CSSASS Active Search Sensor AS113-R50 (70%) (1)     GPS 25000     Range 113.8m km    Resolution 50
EMCSS EM Sensor EM50-250 (70%) (1)     Sensitivity 250     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  125m km
TCSS Thermal Sensor TH50-250 (70%) (1)     Sensitivity 250     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  125m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a c for auto-assignment purposes
The first notable difference I've noticed is Incremental Failure Rate - Yours is 228.6%, mine 81.5%. I put 1363 Engineering Spaces, 1 small Engineering Space and 1 Fighter Engineering space to achieve this.
Your speed, of course, is far superior.
Armor is far worse - 16 versus 100, but it is compensated by Far superior shielding - 2600-333 versus 100-300.
Your Passive sensors are worse 60/60 versus 250/250.
The amount of fuel you carry is kind of insane... 194,052,000 litres versus 750,000.
Your weaponry is less complicated and more uniform - You have 2 types of missile launchers and Railguns versus particle beams (which are, probably, next to useless in this battle), Laser Turrets, CIWSs, Gauss Cannon Turrets, Meson Cannon Turrets and 1 type of missile launchers.
Your Active sensors are also a bit worse better than mine.
I put 1 large reactor, while You put 8 smaller ones.

Alright, so, theoretically, if we pit these 2 behemoths against one another...
Yours is generally superior in majority of the aspects.
But, if we also include finding an enemy in this competition, You'd have a bit harder time - I'd have noticed Your ship coming earlier. And with my EM and Thermal signature, it may take a bit of a while for You to find mine. In the meantime I could track and sneakily try to evade You... Unless you drop your speed or something...
Okay, so let's say that You managed to detect me, and now approaching. I literally am a sitting duck with my speed...

So the first wave would be missiles. I... Don't see Yours.
Mine of course would have trouble scoring a hit with that speed... Your railguns would probably shoot several of them down... And the ones that do go through - would be stopped by shields. Having extra 3 reloads would not help much...
Your 12cm Railguns would be in range, while most of my weapons won't... Would my particle beams be able to do something? If tracking speed is the same as my ships's speed - yeah, they're useless. But if 2,000 - I might be able to retaliate...
If You decide to go closer and unleash all the Railguns you've got... Well, I also can retaliate with Lasers and Gauss cannons. Mesons, however, would not help.
You'd deal with my shields easily, but, how much effort would it take to crack my armor?
If your shields are getting low, You could at any time try to run away.

If it comes to MSP usage and damage repair capabilities, mine seem to be superior 27,848 versus 110,826. Mine outlasts Yours, in a question of endurance.
Still, I admit that You'd win, at least a minor victory, mostly due to superior technology and speed.
Edit: Also - good luck building a tanker (fleet), that can supply this thing...
« Last Edit: July 03, 2021, 01:59:47 PM by Blogaugis »
 

Offline Andrew

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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2021, 01:00:02 PM »
Report back when you have built on of those and used it in battle. You will have learned a lot and hopefully had a lot of fun which is what this is all about. Play the game, have fun discover which of your ideas are bad, I think almost all of them but then again many of mine are not great
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2021, 01:42:14 PM »
A few points:

The amount of fuel you carry is kind of insane... 194,052,000 litres versus 750,000.

This is actually a good point, but not in the way it is posited. ~200m litres of fuel comes out to about 4,000 HS, or 20% of the total displacement, which is indeed excessive. Notably, the engines add up to "only" 6,280 HS which gives around a 5:3 ratio of engine to fuel mass - this is quite bad, as a 3:1 ratio is optimal and divergence should nearly always be in the direction of a higher engine mass to conserve fuel. That being said, for a 10,000 HS propulsion section it is still very reasonable to have somewhere in the range of 2,000 to 2,500 HS of fuel, or about 100m to 125m litres, although I would expect in practice to see somewhat less than this (but not a mere 750,000 litres!) as large warships usually need to use low-efficiency engines to conserve gallicite and fuel stockpiles.

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Your Active sensors are also a bit worse than mine.

This is incorrect: the Andrew variant has a range of 204.5m km on its RES-200 active, whereas the Blogaugis variant has only a range of 113.8m km on a RES-50 active. The Andrew variant will easily spot the Blogaugis variant first by a considerable margin.

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But, if we also include finding an enemy in this competition, You'd have a bit harder time - I'd have noticed Your ship coming earlier. And with my EM and Thermal signature, it may take a bit of a while for You to find mine. In the meantime I could track and sneakily try to evade You... Unless you drop your speed or something...

Almost certainly what will actually happen in practice is that the escort/AWACS/recon vessels escorting both ships will spot the enemy fleet. I want to point this out because it is important not to just compare two capital ships as if they would engage in a 1v1 duel for supremacy - this is a recipe for a dead capital ship.

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So the first wave would be missiles.

This is where things are going to be one part interesting, three parts tremendously disappointing.

Let's get the trivialities out of the way first: the Blogaugis variant carried a grand total of 40 missiles, dealing two damage apiece, and can fire 10 at a time. This would be utterly trivial for the 122 10-cm railguns of the Andrew variant to swat away, but even if all the missiles hit they deliver a grand total of 80 damage. The Andrew variant can recharge its shields to completely erase this damage in ten seconds. Score zero for the Blogaugis variant.

The Andrew variant is far more interesting, as it packs 5,000 size-5 missiles. While the missile specs are not given I would assume, conservatively, that these missiles pack at least 4-damage warheads, so delivering about 20,000 damage i every missile hits. If we assume that all 5,000 box launchers fire at once, as one would expect when engaging a million-ton titan, how much damage will actually be done?

First of all, we're going to have to run some point defense calculations - I'm going to assume the Andrew missiles have a speed of 12,000 km/s, because this is entirely achievable with very low NPE-era tech (frankly I would have used 15,000, but I want a conservative estimate here). In the single final-fire point defense volley, the Blogaugis variant will fire 560 shots with 8000 km/s tracking speed thanks to turrets (66% accuracy modifier), and 72 particle beam shots with only 2000 km/s tracking speed (16% accuracy modifier), all using fire controls with 80,000 km maximum range. PD final fire takes place at 10,000 km, so the BFC speed gives an accuracy modifier of 87.5%. Summing this all up and applying the appropriate accuracy multipliers, the Blogaugis variant will shoot down on average about 340 missiles, leaving 4,660 to score hits (no chance of dodging with only 50 km/s speed).

Those 4,660 hits will do, based on our assumptions, around 18,600 damage. 100 of that is absorbed by the shields, leaving 18,500 damage to impact the armor directly. The Blogaugis variant has a total of 89,000 armor boxes on account of being really big. It is tricky to actually work out armor penetration probabilities without a direct simulation, but as a rough rule of thumb a heavily-armored ship will lose around one-third to one-half of its armor before beginning to suffer penetrating hits, a margin the Blogaugis variant comfortably exceeds.

So the result is that the Blogaugis variant is hilariously impotent, while the Andrew variant can deal a lot of damage, but will likely fail to even penetrate the armor of its opponent let alone destroy it. Overall the advantage goes to the Andrew variant but tactically this is a draw.

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Your 12cm Railguns would be in range, while most of my weapons won't... Would my particle beams be able to do something? If tracking speed is the same as my ships's speed - yeah, they're useless. But if 2,000 - I might be able to retaliate...
If You decide to go closer and unleash all the Railguns you've got... Well, I also can retaliate with Lasers and Gauss cannons. Mesons, however, would not help.

At this point the Andrew variant runs away and reloads, because it has a top speed well in excess of the orbital velocity of Mercury. It does need to reload at a planet, which is a serious logistical handicap, but by the time it has done this and returned to the battlefield the Blogaugis variant has traveled about 10% of the way back to a repair yard to fix its armor.

Of course, in a real battle which is between two fleets and not only these two ships the Andrew variant likely has not wasted its time targeting the enemy capital ship, instead shredding the entire escorting fleet with 20,000 damage from missiles before running away, which would be a crushing defeat by any standard.

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Edit: Also - good luck building a tanker (fleet), that can supply this thing...

To be frank, if you are building million-ton monstrosities without the logistics infrastructure to support such things, you have made a serious mistake. It may take multiple large tankers to top off such a large ship, but a 150,000 or 200,000-ton tanker can easily tote around over 50m litres of fuel, and that is really not a difficult size of commercial ship to build. The greater challenge is harvesting all of that fuel, but if you have expanded a shipyard to a million tons without building several hundred fuel harvesters in the interim period I do not know what else to tell you.

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To conclude, I want to return to an earlier point, and note that nearly all of these issues would be at least mitigated if not entirely resolved by putting an actual decent propulsion section on the Blogaugis variant which can allow it to at least be competitive in terms of speed and range against contemporary vessels. At only 50 km/s there is simply no way to bring the beam weapons to bear outside of a JP defense scenario (and even then a competent squadron jump likely mitigates this). If one is going to build a beam-primary warship, one must bring enough speed to close the range, otherwise the beam weapons will be entirely ineffective outside of perhaps surprising the enemy in the initial encounter (mainly applies to NPRs).
 
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Offline Blogaugis (OP)

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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2021, 02:14:13 PM »
A few points:

Quote
Your Active sensors are also a bit worse than mine.

This is incorrect: the Andrew variant has a range of 204.5m km on its RES-200 active, whereas the Blogaugis variant has only a range of 113.8m km on a RES-50 active. The Andrew variant will easily spot the Blogaugis variant first by a considerable margin.
My mistake. Rectified in original post.
Almost certainly what will actually happen in practice is that the escort/AWACS/recon vessels escorting both ships will spot the enemy fleet. I want to point this out because it is important not to just compare two capital ships as if they would engage in a 1v1 duel for supremacy - this is a recipe for a dead capital ship.
Ah, so all-in-1 ship designs are not... good.
This is where things are going to be one part interesting, three parts tremendously disappointing.

Let's get the trivialities out of the way first: the Blogaugis variant carried a grand total of 40 missiles, dealing two damage apiece, and can fire 10 at a time. This would be utterly trivial for the 122 10-cm railguns of the Andrew variant to swat away, but even if all the missiles hit they deliver a grand total of 80 damage. The Andrew variant can recharge its shields to completely erase this damage in ten seconds. Score zero for the Blogaugis variant.

The Andrew variant is far more interesting, as it packs 5,000 size-5 missiles. While the missile specs are not given I would assume, conservatively, that these missiles pack at least 4-damage warheads, so delivering about 20,000 damage i every missile hits. If we assume that all 5,000 box launchers fire at once, as one would expect when engaging a million-ton titan, how much damage will actually be done?

First of all, we're going to have to run some point defense calculations - I'm going to assume the Andrew missiles have a speed of 12,000 km/s, because this is entirely achievable with very low NPE-era tech (frankly I would have used 15,000, but I want a conservative estimate here). In the single final-fire point defense volley, the Blogaugis variant will fire 560 shots with 8000 km/s tracking speed thanks to turrets (66% accuracy modifier), and 72 particle beam shots with only 2000 km/s tracking speed (16% accuracy modifier), all using fire controls with 80,000 km maximum range. PD final fire takes place at 10,000 km, so the BFC speed gives an accuracy modifier of 87.5%. Summing this all up and applying the appropriate accuracy multipliers, the Blogaugis variant will shoot down on average about 340 missiles, leaving 4,660 to score hits (no chance of dodging with only 50 km/s speed).

Those 4,660 hits will do, based on our assumptions, around 18,600 damage. 100 of that is absorbed by the shields, leaving 18,500 damage to impact the armor directly. The Blogaugis variant has a total of 89,000 armor boxes on account of being really big. It is tricky to actually work out armor penetration probabilities without a direct simulation, but as a rough rule of thumb a heavily-armored ship will lose around one-third to one-half of its armor before beginning to suffer penetrating hits, a margin the Blogaugis variant comfortably exceeds.

So the result is that the Blogaugis variant is hilariously impotent, while the Andrew variant can deal a lot of damage, but will likely fail to even penetrate the armor of its opponent let alone destroy it. Overall the advantage goes to the Andrew variant but tactically this is a draw.
That was an interesting estimation.

At this point the Andrew variant runs away and reloads, because it has a top speed well in excess of the orbital velocity of Mercury. It does need to reload at a planet, which is a serious logistical handicap, but by the time it has done this and returned to the battlefield the Blogaugis variant has traveled about 10% of the way back to a repair yard to fix its armor.

Of course, in a real battle which is between two fleets and not only these two ships the Andrew variant likely has not wasted its time targeting the enemy capital ship, instead shredding the entire escorting fleet with 20,000 damage from missiles before running away, which would be a crushing defeat by any standard.
Well, with the amount of missile launchers, it would indeed be safe to assume that missiles are the primary armament.
To be frank, if you are building million-ton monstrosities without the logistics infrastructure to support such things, you have made a serious mistake. It may take multiple large tankers to top off such a large ship, but a 150,000 or 200,000-ton tanker can easily tote around over 50m litres of fuel, and that is really not a difficult size of commercial ship to build. The greater challenge is harvesting all of that fuel, but if you have expanded a shipyard to a million tons without building several hundred fuel harvesters in the interim period I do not know what else to tell you.

----

To conclude, I want to return to an earlier point, and note that nearly all of these issues would be at least mitigated if not entirely resolved by putting an actual decent propulsion section on the Blogaugis variant which can allow it to at least be competitive in terms of speed and range against contemporary vessels. At only 50 km/s there is simply no way to bring the beam weapons to bear outside of a JP defense scenario (and even then a competent squadron jump likely mitigates this). If one is going to build a beam-primary warship, one must bring enough speed to close the range, otherwise the beam weapons will be entirely ineffective outside of perhaps surprising the enemy in the initial encounter (mainly applies to NPRs).
Which once again confirms that speed is vital.
Either way, great reply. It was a pleasure reading it.
 

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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2021, 03:09:22 PM »
Like to Agree that Nuclearsurplee's reply was as always excellent
 

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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2021, 04:10:50 PM »
How big the auxiliary craft have to be, and what kind of modules does it have to have, in order to pick up lifepods?

Any size and no research specific needed to tow lifepods.
Though to design landing and/or bording craft you have to research Drop Bay and Boarding Bay.
 
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Re: Ship designs Playthrough V1.13.0 2021
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2021, 02:40:02 AM »
I have missed this question:

about carriers - aren't they also supplying their fighters with fuel? I'm even considering that Rheinland should also be classed as a tanker and collier...

Yep, carriers are intended to supply their parasites, but it's not very large part of their fuel needs usually. Let's calc. Your Rheinland carrier class have very economical engines (Fuel Use 8.94%) and so very small fuel tanks (300,000 Litres) despite rather long range. Her combat wing is more usual in terms of fuel usage - it's 31 x 1,000 = 31,000 litres of fuel to tank up given that your wing will use up all their fuel... though it's very unlikely situation, especially for escort carrier, where fighters are intended mostly to be short-range interceptors with just emergency capability to undertake relatively long-range strike. So, even Rheinland is able to fuel up her group after full-range strike for just 10% of her fuel load, and it's very unlikely that she will need another large refuel in the same route. And if you'll use this ship in the strike role - to sent fighters wave after the wave - you'll have tankers with your fleet, so it will not be the problem.

Speaking of tanker and collier role for escort carrier - it can be useful in some situations, though you'll need to equip her with corresponding modules, and so you'll noticeably increase the maintenance load and fuel usage of your carrier. Escort ships have to be cheap, otherwise you'll have problems with building and maintaining your main combat fleet (and you'll need it with invaders on!), so it's more sensible to have dedicated tankers and especially colliers (it's unlikely that you'll need to replenish with ordnance those ships you'll sent escort carrier with).

Generally speaking, an absence of storms and navigational crashes in Aurora makes specilized ships more potent compared with real ocean navies: it's more efficient to sent several specilized ships, if you need no fear that one of them will lag behind and get lost or collide with some of their escort, or smth like this.
 
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