Author Topic: Tentative Suggestions for Missile Rebalancing by Tweaking Launcher Size Rules  (Read 13479 times)

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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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In terms of box launcher and the 30% being the same size... in my opinion box launchers should only be for ships meant for carriers or carrier stations or ships that operate within a system and have access to maintenance facilities.

I don't think we should use box launcher for proper capital warship to begin with. I basically view the 30% launcher as like a vertical launch system where you more or less need to reload them externally, this is why they take so long to reload, the difference between box launcher and the 30% ones are that the ship with reloadable launchers in space carry the equipment to do so while the box version does not, this is the increased cost and additional crew needed to operate them.

The fact that they are more expensive and require crew also means they take up more space in crew quarters and engineering facilities and/or MSP. So they are not truly the same size in a practical sense.                                                                                         

 
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Offline Steve Walmsley

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In terms of box launcher and the 30% being the same size... in my opinion box launchers should only be for ships meant for carriers or carrier stations or ships that operate within a system and have access to maintenance facilities.

I don't think we should use box launcher for proper capital warship to begin with. I basically view the 30% launcher as like a vertical launch system where you more or less need to reload them externally, this is why they take so long to reload, the difference between box launcher and the 30% ones are that the ship with reloadable launchers in space carry the equipment to do so while the box version does not, this is the increased cost and additional crew needed to operate them.

The fact that they are more expensive and require crew also means they take up more space in crew quarters and engineering facilities and/or MSP. So they are not truly the same size in a practical sense.                                                                                       

Also, if you have reloadable launchers, then presumably you will need something with which to reload them, which means dedicated magazine space. As I said in an earlier post - the design decision isn't really 30% vs box, but rather whether you are designing a ship for multiple salvos or just one.
 
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Offline Elouda

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In terms of box launcher and the 30% being the same size... in my opinion box launchers should only be for ships meant for carriers or carrier stations or ships that operate within a system and have access to maintenance facilities.

I don't think we should use box launcher for proper capital warship to begin with. I basically view the 30% launcher as like a vertical launch system where you more or less need to reload them externally, this is why they take so long to reload, the difference between box launcher and the 30% ones are that the ship with reloadable launchers in space carry the equipment to do so while the box version does not, this is the increased cost and additional crew needed to operate them.

The fact that they are more expensive and require crew also means they take up more space in crew quarters and engineering facilities and/or MSP. So they are not truly the same size in a practical sense.                                                                                       

Also, if you have reloadable launchers, then presumably you will need something with which to reload them, which means dedicated magazine space. As I said in an earlier post - the design decision isn't really 30% vs box, but rather whether you are designing a ship for multiple salvos or just one.

Not necessarily - if all 30% launchers are is 'box launchers that dont require maintenance facilities or hangars to reload', then all the magazine space you need is already there, you can just refill them from a collier in a fleet much more conveniently than current box launchers, hence the my concern about them just replacing box launchers entirely.

Also, another issue this size progression will bring up is that it makes 'canister' launchers (ie. a missile containing other missiles as second stage, and no actual range/etc on the first stage) very attractive. If a Size 9 launcher is 3 HS and a Size 3 launcher is 1.73 HS, then it becomes extremely attractive to design size 9 'canister' missiles containing 3 size 2.95 (or whatever the exact size ends up being) missiles inside, getting vastly higher salvo density (~6-6.5x) and ultimately doing nothing to actually change the small vs large missiles issue, just shifting the meta for how it is done.

While fundamentally I agree there is an issue, both with beam vs missile attractiveness, and small vs large missile balance, I'm not really sure this is the right way of resolving it, instead I feel like bringing some of the things that made larger missiles viable in VB like armour, possibly bringing back/reworking laserheads, and also possibly considering new mechanics like either guidance limits (possibly mitigated by additional onboard avionics on missiles which take space), and/or a scaling (tech dependent and in favour of large missiles, so say 0.2 MS in a S1, but only 0.4 MS in a Size 4, 0.6 MS in a Size 9, etc) fraction of missile size being dedicated to avionics/guidance to begin with could alleviate things atleast for the small vs large approach.

I do also think fighters could benefit from a specific type of 'launch rail' option.

Edit: Example of this sort of 'canister' design, in this case a 4x1.225 AMM canister designed to give my ships with S5 box launchers (since they carry an R1 MFC anyway) a way to contribute additional defensive fire. This is a pretty niche use, but can obviously be done for ASM too.

Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 5.000 MSP  (12.5000 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 240 km/s     Fuel: 204     1st Stage Flight Time: 0 seconds    1st Stage Range: 0k km
2nd Stage Flight Time: 31 seconds    2nd Stage Range: 1,025.8k km
Cost Per Missile: 6.473264     Development Cost: 402
Second Stage: RIR-25A Dart x4
Second Stage Separation Range: 1,020,000 km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 2.4%   3k km/s 0.8%   5k km/s 0.5%   10k km/s 0.2%
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 06:42:22 AM by Elouda »
 

Offline boolybooly

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the difference between box launcher and the 30% ones are that the ship with reloadable launchers in space carry the equipment to do so while the box version does not, this is the increased cost and additional crew needed to operate them.

The fact that they are more expensive and require crew also means they take up more space in crew quarters and engineering facilities and/or MSP. So they are not truly the same size in a practical sense.                                                                                       

Yes, that is why, you put your finger on it there.

I acknowledge I am still a relative noob with Aurora but thought the following might be interesting for this discussion.

Found an example of something a bit like a 30% reloadable launcher which I thought would be worth relaying (in this document "21-INCH ABOVE WATER TORPEDO TUBES" https://archive.hnsa.org/doc/destroyer/ddtubes/index.htm ). This destroyer torpedo tube assembly requires a manned hoist to reload. Maybe the tube itself is equivalent to a box launcher. The point being reloading requires machinery and space behind the tube assembly, like a submarine torpedo room. Undoubtedly this would be automated in the TransNewtonian age.





Thinking about the maths and fair warning I am better at biology than maths tbh I wondered if there was a simple scaling model which should be true to life for a box launcher as the box launcher should enclose a missile, so should scale with missile tonnage as if a surface area surrounding a volume.

So if you treat the box launcher as a cube with side L and cubic volume L^3, the surface area is 6*(L^2). i.e. square of cube root x6.

Box tonnage = ((∛missile tonnage)^2)*6

So at the risk of getting carried away I plugged it into LibreOffice and got this, which I thought you might be interested to see, to save you the bother.



It seems to me its the same fundamental relationship between area and volume even if it is a torpedo sausage shape and uses the cylinder formulas. Granted there are differences if you wanted to get into that but I am just keeping it simple for now.

Its possible to add a term for clearance i.e. gap between missile and box, which would adjust the scale.

e.g. Box tonnage = (((∛missile tonnage)+(clearance constant))^2)*6

With a reloading mechanisms its possible to use the same fundamental cube root squared relationship by adding terms for a volume of machinery to handle the reload and conveyance from the magazine, which would also scale with missile size as a container and so would be a multiplier of the whole expression involving reload tech level and launcher reload rate %. The details would be in Steve's domain but I thought it was worth mentioning here for purposes of discussion as an alternative way of modelling all launcher sizes. Hope that is OK.

e.g. Reloadable Launcher tonnage = ((((∛missile tonnage)+(clearance constant))^2)*6) * (1+ (reload constant/reload tech level)) * (launcher reload % term)

« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 04:39:33 AM by boolybooly »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Also, another issue this size progression will bring up is that it makes 'canister' launchers (ie. a missile containing other missiles as second stage, and no actual range/etc on the first stage) very attractive. If a Size 9 launcher is 3 HS and a Size 3 launcher is 1.73 HS, then it becomes extremely attractive to design size 9 'canister' missiles containing 3 size 2.95 (or whatever the exact size ends up being) missiles inside, getting vastly higher salvo density (~6-6.5x) and ultimately doing nothing to actually change the small vs large missiles issue, just shifting the meta for how it is done.

Yes, that is a very good point, especially if you start designing really large missiles. Size 36 is only 6 HS - 2x larger than size 9 - and you get 4x more sub-munitions.

EDIT - I don't see an easy way around the above, so what is needed is some capability that requires internal space and is a reasonable alternative to a larger missile wave. Onboard ECM/ECCM is already an option. Perhaps other warhead types could be added. Laser heads that attack from a specified range depending on warheads size and laser tech, or shaped charge warheads that are larger than normal but with improved penetration, or Tandem-charge for a similar effect. Maybe missiles with retargeting capability if they miss, or some form of evasion capabilities, or missiles with electronic damage similar to microwaves (that require large warheads). Perhaps it's time to revisit EW and add jamming and counter-jamming. Open to ideas.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 07:02:57 AM by Steve Walmsley »
 
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Offline Elouda

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Also, another issue this size progression will bring up is that it makes 'canister' launchers (ie. a missile containing other missiles as second stage, and no actual range/etc on the first stage) very attractive. If a Size 9 launcher is 3 HS and a Size 3 launcher is 1.73 HS, then it becomes extremely attractive to design size 9 'canister' missiles containing 3 size 2.95 (or whatever the exact size ends up being) missiles inside, getting vastly higher salvo density (~6-6.5x) and ultimately doing nothing to actually change the small vs large missiles issue, just shifting the meta for how it is done.

Yes, that is a very good point, especially if you start designing really large missiles. Size 36 is only 6 HS - 2x larger than size 9 - and you get 4x more sub-munitions.

EDIT - I don't see an easy way around the above, so what is needed is some capability that requires internal space and is a reasonable alternative to a larger missile wave. Onboard ECM/ECCM is already an option. Perhaps other warhead types could be added. Laser heads that attack from a specified range depending on warheads size and laser tech, or shaped charge warheads that are larger than normal but with improved penetration, or Tandem-charge for a similar effect. Maybe missiles with retargeting capability if they miss, or some form of evasion capabilities, or missiles with electronic damage similar to microwaves (that require large warheads). Perhaps it's time to revisit EW and add jamming and counter-jamming. Open to ideas.

On the warhead type musings;
You've already mentioned Laserheads, which I would personally love to see return as a mid-late tech option (maybe even Casaba Howitzers as an earlier tech alternative), maybe with a bit more customization that before (maybe porting some of the ideas from Newtonian with regards to accuracy/scatter etc) and some design choices to make regarding detonation distance/accuracy/etc. A 'penetrator' warhead option that turns the missile profile into something more akin to the railgun one would also be welcome. EMP warheads (potentially capable of engaging from outside final defensive fire like laserheads) are also an interesting idea.

A couple of thoughts, shooting somewhat from the hip here but I can refine these a bit when I have a bit more time (or someone else will if theres anything usable...), heres a couple of thoughts, along with my general perceived impact on balance from them. Ordered from pretty tame to 'out there'.

Adjust Launcher Sizes - Fundementally part of the logic behind this original proposal is good, so perhaps a general reduction in baseline launcher sizes to 75% of current would allow for slightly higher salvo density. Box launchers could stay their current size. (ie. Full Size would be new 75%, 80% would be 60%, 60% would be 45%, 40% would be 30%, 30% would be 22.5%, Box would be 15%). This would buff missile launchers overall vs alternatives, and box launchers less so, but do little about the missile size issue.

Altered Reload Rate Calculation - Making the missile reload rate calculation even more non-linear (or even fixed) with size would help larger launchers in non-box configurations as it would make large missiles still capable of producing decent follow up salvos. Potentially this makes the reload tech somewhat less attractive, so one option could be to double the baseline reload of everything to begin with, though this would obviously hurt missiles vs other weapons early on.

Avionics/Guidance MSP Requirement - Adding a fraction of MSP reserved to represent avionics and basic guidance systems could be a way to make large missiles more space efficient overall. If for example this avionics used up 0.2*(Missile Size)^0.5 MSP (ie. 0.2 on S1, 0.2 on S4 and 0.3 on S9), then smaller missiles would be less attractive. This could have some tech progression to reduce it at fairly large RP steps (ala Gauss RoF). Potential downside is this might make submunitions less viable. Overall would nerf missiles in general, but in particular small ones.

Altered Engine Efficiency Progression - Making the missile engine fuel efficiency curve more harmful to small missiles by for example moving the current 'baseline' from 2 MSP to 4 MSP would penalize range and/or speed on missiles smaller than that. This would probably not affect fighter or other short ranged missiles or submunitions too badly, but make long range S2/3 missiles less viable.

Missile HTK - Offering missiles some degree of fractional HTK as a progression of size would potentially make large missiles more attractive depending on the scaling. As an example, for example additional step of 2 beyond size 2 missiles gained 0.1 HTK (ie. S4 = 1.1, S8 = 1.3, S12 = 1.5, S20 = 2.0). This would mean hits with only 1 damage like typical AMMs would roll to see if the missile is actually destroyed. Potential issues include altering gauss vs laser balance (though this could be fixed by just saying 'gauss does 2 damage in final PD fire').

Missile Armour - Same as above, but deliberately using MSP to achieve the same effect within some limit. Similar issues.

Missile Penetration Aids/Decoys - Option to spend MSP to include decoys and penetration aids carried by the missile, which could work something like requiring 0.5*(Missile Size)^0.5 MSP to carry (ie. 0.7 for S2, 1 for S4, 1.5 for S9). Potentially multiple could be allowed (possibly limited by tech). Size could also be reduce with tech slightly. Each decoy carried would essentially present a false target to PD/AMM fire until destroyed - such that a shot against a missile with 1 decoy has a 50% chance (potentially also a tech progression thing) to hit the decoy, after which it would be destroyed. Potentially different effectiveness vs AMM or PD fire might be required. Effect potentially reduced by ECCM and/or enhanced by missile ECM.

Missile Reduced Cross Section - Offshoot of cloaking technology, allow spending MSP to reduce apparent size of missiles (to a far smaller degree than cloaks) for detection purposes. As an example, spending 0.5*(Missile Size)^0.5 could allow reducing it to half of the effective cloaking technology reduction (So at 90% cloak, it would reduce missiles to 45%, the fraction of cloak % given by this could also be a tech progression, as could the size needed). This is of course largely pointless for small missiles as they are already below the size 6 threshold, but could be interesting for larger ones.

Missile Guidance Channel Limits - When designing MFC, they would be designed with the capability to control a specific numbers of missiles - this number can be altered at the cost of a larger MFC (ideally being slightly more effective to concentrate capacity in one FC vs two split ones to given tradeoff between redundancy/space efficiency) and would potentially have a tech progression line to go with it. As an example, the baseline amount could be 4 missiles per FC, and for the cost of doubling this capacity would add 50% to the FC size, and so on. If a FC finds itself controlling more missiles than its limit, the accuracy (and potentially how easy they are to hit by defensive fire) of those missiles degrades in relation to how many over the limit you are (unsure if this would be linear or not). Potentially a checkbox in the combat page to instead 'discard' missiles if over its control limit. Missiles which have internal sensors, once they acquire a target on those sensors, would count at reduced capacity against the limit, or potentially not at all (though this latter option would invite even small missiles with no sensors). Missiles could also be given 'additional avionics' internally to reduce how much channel capacity they take up, at the cost of MSP (either fixed or scaling in favour of larger missiles). This change would potentially hurt box launchers quite significantly, or atleast require ships to be more seriously designed around very large salvos. Potentially if more advanced ECM/Jamming is added later it could have some interesting interplay in this regard. I realize one issue with this is how to handle the 'stream' of missiles from regular launchers, so potentially some way of differentiating missiles 'enroute' vs 'in attack phase' (and thus requiring more active guidance) might be needed.

New Launcher Type - Rotary - If box launchers are our 'VLS' equivalent, and regular launchers are something akin to either internal torpedo tubes or the 'arm' launchers of early missile ships, a potentially distinct type of launcher could be added to the mix, namely rotary or revolver launchers in the vein of those carried by some strategic bombers. These would function as a regular launcher does, except with 2 changes - their delay between shots would be reduced compared to regular launchers (this is somewhat redundant if the altered reload rate above is taken under consideration), and they have an internal capacity after which they must reload for a longer period (unsure if from magazine or via maintenance facility) to restock their internal tubes. No specifics on this as its a bit of a stray thought.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 10:32:06 AM by Elouda »
 

Offline nuclearslurpee (OP)

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Not necessarily - if all 30% launchers are is 'box launchers that dont require maintenance facilities or hangars to reload', then all the magazine space you need is already there, you can just refill them from a collier in a fleet much more conveniently than current box launchers, hence the my concern about them just replacing box launchers entirely.

I suspect Steve's point was that you still have to invest in colliers which are not free by any means. Granted, as commercial ships they push off the maintenance costs compared to military ships with magazines but it is still an up-front cost and requires periodic upgrading to maintain strategically viable fleet speeds.

Quote
Also, another issue this size progression will bring up is that it makes 'canister' launchers (ie. a missile containing other missiles as second stage, and no actual range/etc on the first stage) very attractive. If a Size 9 launcher is 3 HS and a Size 3 launcher is 1.73 HS, then it becomes extremely attractive to design size 9 'canister' missiles containing 3 size 2.95 (or whatever the exact size ends up being) missiles inside, getting vastly higher salvo density (~6-6.5x) and ultimately doing nothing to actually change the small vs large missiles issue, just shifting the meta for how it is done.

An important point. I also don't have a solution on hand. One idea is to have some fixed +HS per second stage, or perhaps +X% of the second stage MSP. This seems a bit weird to try and justify but would probably be fine mechanically, the bigger issue is that the additional mass becomes a balancing saddle point with no stable equilibrium, so instead of an interesting decision we get math and optimization which isn't quite idiomatic for Aurora.

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also possibly considering new mechanics like either guidance limits (possibly mitigated by additional onboard avionics on missiles which take space),

I actually love the flavor of this idea and would totally suggest it, but I'm not sure it fits into Aurora (one can argue that MFCs and BFCs should be parallel, so we should change both in step) nor that it solves the problem in practice. On the latter point, a MFC is often going to be smaller and cheaper than a missile launcher, even a box launcher in many cases, so it's pretty easy to overcome guidance limits by adding another MFC or a couple and taking off a couple of launchers, rather than jumping to a larger missiles size. The smaller launchers will still easily mount a larger volley size. Further, if guidance limits improve with tech (and it would be weird if they do not), higher tech levels push the balance point further towards small missiles which is already something we'd like to avoid.

However, I do love the flavor of it, and I think making the parallel change to BFCs would be good. In part, requiring more BFCs for more numerous guns would be a helpful check on the balance between full-size and reduced-shot railguns, which is a previous point of discussion that I haven't seen any changes about in the patch notes yet.

Altered Reload Rate Calculation - Making the missile reload rate calculation even more non-linear (or even fixed) with size would help larger launchers in non-box configurations as it would make large missiles still capable of producing decent follow up salvos. Potentially this makes the reload tech somewhat less attractive, so one option could be to double the baseline reload of everything to begin with, though this would obviously hurt missiles vs other weapons early on.

This would be a very touchy change because it is important to keep a good ROF for AMMs. I know we all hate AMM spam, but without sufficiently rapid AMMs the primary counter to box launcher swarms is severely nerfed and that would not be helpful.

Quote
Altered Engine Efficiency Progression - Making the missile engine fuel efficiency curve more harmful to small missiles by for example moving the current 'baseline' from 2 MSP to 4 MSP would penalize range and/or speed on missiles smaller than that. This would probably not affect fighter or other short ranged missiles or submunitions too badly, but make long range S2/3 missiles less viable.

This doesn't make sense to me mechanically. Missiles use exactly the same engine mechanics as larger ships, except for the extra overboost capacity and matching fuel efficiency modifier. I'm completely unaware of any 2 MSP "baseline" for fuel efficiency. Is this a VB6 mechanic I've forgotten about?

Quote
Missile Armour - Same as above, but deliberately using MSP to achieve the same effect within some limit. Similar issues.

If missiles used the same armor scaling rule as ships this would be a reasonable approach IMO, if we treat armor as a +HTK instead of +HP source. Beam PD is pretty strong against anything that's not a box launcher swarm, so a bit of a nerf isn't the worst thing and making laser turrets and 12cm railguns useful in this role would add more interest.

The problem with armor on missiles is that it's pretty easy for adding armor to be better for overall survivability (against 1-damage weapons) than using the space for more engine power/speed, and possibly even generally since >1-damage PD weapons are so much less efficient per ton. We don't want to just make armoring missiles a no-brainer, and NPRs would struggle a lot with this complexity.

Quote
Missile Penetration Aids/Decoys - Option to spend MSP to include decoys and penetration aids carried by the missile, which could work something like requiring 0.5*(Missile Size)^0.5 MSP to carry (ie. 0.7 for S2, 1 for S4, 1.5 for S9). Potentially multiple could be allowed (possibly limited by tech). Size could also be reduce with tech slightly. Each decoy carried would essentially present a false target to PD/AMM fire until destroyed - such that a shot against a missile with 1 decoy has a 50% chance (potentially also a tech progression thing) to hit the decoy, after which it would be destroyed. Potentially different effectiveness vs AMM or PD fire might be required. Effect potentially reduced by ECCM and/or enhanced by missile ECM.

This would be a good fit into a ECM/ECCM rework.

Perhaps it's time to revisit EW and add jamming and counter-jamming. Open to ideas.

I have thoughts but I wouldn't want to derail the thread, it's not ground combat but it's still a veer away from topic.  :)
 

Offline Elouda

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I suspect Steve's point was that you still have to invest in colliers which are not free by any means. Granted, as commercial ships they push off the maintenance costs compared to military ships with magazines but it is still an up-front cost and requires periodic upgrading to maintain strategically viable fleet speeds.

Fair, but its a far lower investment compared to sufficient hangar space or forward deployed maintenance bases, and colliers are something one will typically have anyway if one is running a missile based fleet, if for nothing else than AMMs.

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This would be a very touchy change because it is important to keep a good ROF for AMMs. I know we all hate AMM spam, but without sufficiently rapid AMMs the primary counter to box launcher swarms is severely nerfed and that would not be helpful.

If paired with the global size reduction above, even with doubled baseline reload times (and one could instead do +50% instead) the difference would not be that significant, as you could make up with larger salvo sizes. In fact this would benefit early game PD I suspect, as often you only get one salvo off anyway, by the time you get to reload rate 3 or 4 the difference would be less significant.

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This doesn't make sense to me mechanically. Missiles use exactly the same engine mechanics as larger ships, except for the extra overboost capacity and matching fuel efficiency modifier. I'm completely unaware of any 2 MSP "baseline" for fuel efficiency. Is this a VB6 mechanic I've forgotten about?

This is in reference to the 2 MSP engine being x10 fuel usage which I used a 'baseline' for fuel estimations for missiles, so apologies for the slightly misleading terminology. As said moving that spot on the curve to 4 MSP would penalize smaller missiles trying to get longer ranges. I do not see an issue with missile and ship engines having slightly different curves here, as one can argue the missile engines would be simpler, intended for a single use and then done. If needed this could be further reinforced by reducing the cost of missile engines slightly (as missile cost is one of the other factors that affects beam vs missile balance).

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If missiles used the same armor scaling rule as ships this would be a reasonable approach IMO, if we treat armor as a +HTK instead of +HP source. Beam PD is pretty strong against anything that's not a box launcher swarm, so a bit of a nerf isn't the worst thing and making laser turrets and 12cm railguns useful in this role would add more interest.

The problem with armor on missiles is that it's pretty easy for adding armor to be better for overall survivability (against 1-damage weapons) than using the space for more engine power/speed, and possibly even generally since >1-damage PD weapons are so much less efficient per ton. We don't want to just make armoring missiles a no-brainer, and NPRs would struggle a lot with this complexity.

I agree it has issues as you mention - personally I'm more in favour of the 'passive' fractional HTK from the idea above that, as it becomes harder to game, and until S20 you would still have a >50% chance to 1-shot missiles with 1 damage PD weapons.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 11:52:50 AM by Elouda »
 

Offline nuclearslurpee (OP)

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Fair, but its a far lower investment compared to sufficient hangar space or forward deployed maintenance bases, and colliers are something one will typically have anyway if one is running a missile based fleet, if for nothing else than AMMs.

I feel like those things are probably things you want anyways (hangars, bases, etc.), whereas fleet colliers are not necessarily - a missile-heavy fleet needs colliers anyways, of course, but there's a big difference between needing strategic colliers which can keep up with a fleet versus logistical colliers which just need to have sufficient throughput to keep your bases stocked up. Notably the latter don't require so much upgrading as long as you have enough, and can take advantage of sub-50% EP modifiers much more effectively than fleet colliers can, plus you may not need as many depending on the tempo of operations or your ability to shift them between fronts, while fleet colliers are pretty much needed on a per-fleet basis. It's a more complex question than just "well, you need colliers anyways".

All this aside, even if the cost overhead for reloadable 30% vs 30% box launchers is small (past a certain tech level, anyways)...that's not necessarily a bad thing. Box launchers retain a niche for early-game ships, carrier bomber/FAC groups, short-range system defense craft, and so on - we wouldn't be nerfing them to uselessness like Steve did with mesons in the VB6 --> C# move.

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If paired with the global size reduction above, even with doubled baseline reload times (and one could instead do +50% instead) the difference would not be that significant, as you could make up with larger salvo sizes. In fact this would benefit early game PD I suspect, as often you only get one salvo off anyway, by the time you get to reload rate 3 or 4 the difference would be less significant.

Against normal missiles that's fine, but against box launchers the key tactic (other than box-launched AMMs, which we would nerf somewhat with these changes) is an extended sensor net using large AM sensors or scout fighters, allowing rapid-fire AMM launchers to put out enough volleys to shoot down most or all of the swarm. If we drop reload rates, this tactic becomes prohibitive or impossible until higher reload rates (currently, RR=3 - at 4k RP, so pretty early-game - is the ROF 10 breakpoint, and RR=6 is the ROF 5 breakpoint). I think we want to be very careful that whatever changes end up happening don't lead to the effect of making box launcher swarms as dominant or even more dominant as they are now, which defeats the goal of trying to introduce more variety and decision-making into missile fleet design.

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This is in reference to the 2 MSP engine being x10 fuel usage which I used a 'baseline' for fuel estimations for missiles, so apologies for the slightly misleading terminology. As said moving that spot on the curve to 4 MSP would penalize smaller missiles trying to get longer ranges. I do not see an issue with missile and ship engines having slightly different curves here, as one can argue the missile engines would be simpler, intended for a single use and then done. If needed this could be further reinforced by reducing the cost of missile engines slightly (as missile cost is one of the other factors that affects beam vs missile balance).

Makes sense, then. I think we could actually solve the fuel and cost problems pretty elegantly, by changing overboost so that it is a fixed 2x EP multiplier, with the attendant (fixed) 5x fuel use multiplier but no cost multiplier. You still get the full range of EP modifiers down to 2x the racial minimum This would have the benefit (subjectively, so this is IMO only) of making missile design a good bit easier to calculate, which I for one would greatly appreciate as it would make missile design less about tricky numerical details and more about design decisions like hit rate vs. PD avoidance.
 

Offline Elouda

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All this aside, even if the cost overhead for reloadable 30% vs 30% box launchers is small (past a certain tech level, anyways)...that's not necessarily a bad thing. Box launchers retain a niche for early-game ships, carrier bomber/FAC groups, short-range system defense craft, and so on - we wouldn't be nerfing them to uselessness like Steve did with mesons in the VB6 --> C# move.

I disagree, and its one of my biggest issues with the original proposal outside of the canister issue. Im just going to leave this as a difference of opinion and move on.

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Against normal missiles that's fine, but against box launchers the key tactic (other than box-launched AMMs, which we would nerf somewhat with these changes) is an extended sensor net using large AM sensors or scout fighters, allowing rapid-fire AMM launchers to put out enough volleys to shoot down most or all of the swarm. If we drop reload rates, this tactic becomes prohibitive or impossible until higher reload rates (currently, RR=3 - at 4k RP, so pretty early-game - is the ROF 10 breakpoint, and RR=6 is the ROF 5 breakpoint). I think we want to be very careful that whatever changes end up happening don't lead to the effect of making box launcher swarms as dominant or even more dominant as they are now, which defeats the goal of trying to introduce more variety and decision-making into missile fleet design.

True to a point, but again, you would have more launchers in this scenario, along with box launchers being 'relatively' somewhat larger than now, so not necessarily as obvious of a choice. And of course, one can always use box launcher or canister AMMs early game against box launcher salvos, not that I see it used much (possibly because its a bit of micro hell).

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Makes sense, then. I think we could actually solve the fuel and cost problems pretty elegantly, by changing overboost so that it is a fixed 2x EP multiplier, with the attendant (fixed) 5x fuel use multiplier but no cost multiplier. You still get the full range of EP modifiers down to 2x the racial minimum This would have the benefit (subjectively, so this is IMO only) of making missile design a good bit easier to calculate, which I for one would greatly appreciate as it would make missile design less about tricky numerical details and more about design decisions like hit rate vs. PD avoidance.

If you cap missile engine boost at 2x you will very significantly buff beam PD against them compared to now. I would definitely not want to get rid of the flexibility of design options the varied boost gives you - I could maybe see reducing the steps available to 10% or 25% steps perhaps.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 01:55:28 PM by Elouda »
 

Offline nuclearslurpee (OP)

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If you cap missile engine boost at 2x you will very significantly buff beam PD against them compared to now. I would definitely not want to get rid of the flexibility of design options the varied boost gives you - I could maybe see reducing the steps available to 10% or 25% steps perhaps.

That's not what I mean. Currently, all engines have an EP modifier with a minimum and maximum value based on racial tech, and missiles additionally get to overboost up to 2x the racial maximum, with a linear fuel efficiency factor that scales from 1.0x at the racial EP boost maximum to 5.0x at double the EP boost maximum. For example, if you have a racial maximum EP modifier of 2.0x, a missile could have an EP modifier of 2.0x (with the same fuel efficiency as any other engine), 3.0x (with 1/3 the fuel efficiency of any other 3.0x engine), or 4.0x (with 1/5 the fuel efficiency of a hypothetical 4.0x ship engine).

I am not proposing to limit the maximum EP modifier to 2.0x, but rather apply a 2.0x overboost (with attendant 1/5 fuel efficiency) to all missiles and to take that 2.0x overboost factor out of the cost calculations. So in the above case, regardless of whether you select 2.0x, 3.0x, or 4.0x EP modifier, a missile still has only 1/5 the fuel efficiency as a ship engine (but half the cost). I think this can be justified in roleplay by handwavium about "single-use vehicle, blah blah blah" as needed.
 

Offline Elouda

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If you cap missile engine boost at 2x you will very significantly buff beam PD against them compared to now. I would definitely not want to get rid of the flexibility of design options the varied boost gives you - I could maybe see reducing the steps available to 10% or 25% steps perhaps.

That's not what I mean. Currently, all engines have an EP modifier with a minimum and maximum value based on racial tech, and missiles additionally get to overboost up to 2x the racial maximum, with a linear fuel efficiency factor that scales from 1.0x at the racial EP boost maximum to 5.0x at double the EP boost maximum. For example, if you have a racial maximum EP modifier of 2.0x, a missile could have an EP modifier of 2.0x (with the same fuel efficiency as any other engine), 3.0x (with 1/3 the fuel efficiency of any other 3.0x engine), or 4.0x (with 1/5 the fuel efficiency of a hypothetical 4.0x ship engine).

I am not proposing to limit the maximum EP modifier to 2.0x, but rather apply a 2.0x overboost (with attendant 1/5 fuel efficiency) to all missiles and to take that 2.0x overboost factor out of the cost calculations. So in the above case, regardless of whether you select 2.0x, 3.0x, or 4.0x EP modifier, a missile still has only 1/5 the fuel efficiency as a ship engine (but half the cost). I think this can be justified in roleplay by handwavium about "single-use vehicle, blah blah blah" as needed.

So the efficiency would be the same regardless of the boost amount....? What would be the point of the other boost levels other than maximum then, and you realize how badly this harms actual two stage or long range single stage missiles...? (Ie. exactly the sort of the we want large missiles to be viable for).

If that is correct and I'm still not misunderstanding something, its not a good idea, as said above "I would definitely not want to get rid of the flexibility of design options the varied boost gives you."

While my proposal does also hurt range overall somewhat, it hit smaller missiles much more significantly which is the point.

If I'm still misunderstanding, I apologize, its been a long day.  :P
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 02:47:48 PM by Elouda »
 

Offline nuclearslurpee (OP)

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So the efficiency would be the same regardless of the boost amount....? What would be the point of the other boost levels other than maximum then, and you realize how badly this harms actual two stage or long range single stage missiles...? (Ie. exactly the sort of the we want large missiles to be viable for).

If that is correct and I'm still not misunderstanding something, its not a good idea, as said above "I would definitely not want to get rid of the flexibility of design options the varied boost gives you."

While my proposal does also hurt range overall somewhat, it hit smaller missiles much more significantly which is the point.

If I'm still misunderstanding, I apologize, its been a long day.  :P

All engines have efficiency that scales with the (base) EP modifier, specifically as EPM^2.5. Any engine with a 2.0x boost has about a 5.65x increase in fuel use; any engine with a 3.0x boost has about a 15.6x increase in fuel use, and any engine with a 4.0x boost has a 32x increase in fuel use... so there is a point to lower boost if you need the extra range.

It may be easier to read the change I'm suggesting as: "Missile engines can have EP modifiers between double the racial minimum and maximum modifiers. Missile engines use 5x as much fuel as hypothetical ship engines of the same design, but have half the cost." Hopefully that makes it more clear.

Note also that larger missiles benefit from the improved fuel efficiency of larger engines (varying as SQRT(engine_size)) in any case, so larger missiles will still be able to reach better speed+range marks than smaller missiles in any case. Really what I want here is to simplify missile design and adjust the cost a bit to help with the strategic problems of missile-based fleets.
 

Offline Elouda

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So the efficiency would be the same regardless of the boost amount....? What would be the point of the other boost levels other than maximum then, and you realize how badly this harms actual two stage or long range single stage missiles...? (Ie. exactly the sort of the we want large missiles to be viable for).

If that is correct and I'm still not misunderstanding something, its not a good idea, as said above "I would definitely not want to get rid of the flexibility of design options the varied boost gives you."

While my proposal does also hurt range overall somewhat, it hit smaller missiles much more significantly which is the point.

If I'm still misunderstanding, I apologize, its been a long day.  :P

All engines have efficiency that scales with the (base) EP modifier, specifically as EPM^2.5. Any engine with a 2.0x boost has about a 5.65x increase in fuel use; any engine with a 3.0x boost has about a 15.6x increase in fuel use, and any engine with a 4.0x boost has a 32x increase in fuel use... so there is a point to lower boost if you need the extra range.

It may be easier to read the change I'm suggesting as: "Missile engines can have EP modifiers between double the racial minimum and maximum modifiers. Missile engines use 5x as much fuel as hypothetical ship engines of the same design, but have half the cost." Hopefully that makes it more clear.

Note also that larger missiles benefit from the improved fuel efficiency of larger engines (varying as SQRT(engine_size)) in any case, so larger missiles will still be able to reach better speed+range marks than smaller missiles in any case. Really what I want here is to simplify missile design and adjust the cost a bit to help with the strategic problems of missile-based fleets.

Sorry, I'm still not sure if I get this properly - are you suggesting to increase fuel usage of all missiles engines by five times compared to the current, in return for being half the cost? If so again I don't think that is a particularly sensible change.

If I'm still misunderstanding, could you put it in simple terms compared to current things, ie what the practical effect would be in terms of fuel usage? Because I suspect I am still misunderstanding as five times sounds pretty absurd across all missile sizes.

Just to be fair from my end, my proposal of moving the x10 multiplier from size 2 to size 4 would mean;
Size 2 engines would use 41.4% more fuel (current S1 modifier),
Size 1 engines would use 100% more fuel (current S0.5 modifier), and
Size 0.5 engines would use 182.8% more fuel (current S0.25 modifier).
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 03:26:45 PM by Elouda »
 

Offline nuclearslurpee (OP)

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Sorry, I'm still not sure if I get this properly - are you suggesting to increase fuel usage of all missiles engines by five times compared to the current, in return for being half the cost? If so again I don't think that is a particularly sensible change.

No. As it stands now, missiles can have a maximum EP modifier of up to 2x the racial maximum tech level. If a missile has an EP modifier which is less than or equal to the racial maximum, there is no special rule for fuel usage. For missile engines with an EP modifier between 1x and 2x the racial maximum, there is a linearly scaling fuel use modifier, which is on top of all the usual and which scales from 1 at the racial maximum to 5x at double the racial maximum.

This means that my proposed change will have no effect, whatsoever, on missiles which use the racial maximum EP modifier, because those missiles already have a 5x fuel use modifier on top of everything else. For a missile engine which has the racial maximum EP modifier or lower, fuel use would be 5x as much. For a missile engine with, say 1.5x the racial maximum EP modifier (so if the racial tech level is 2x, this missile engine has 3x, for example) will use about 1.67x as much fuel (since currently it uses 3x as much fuel).

The net fuel impact is then most stressful for the low-speed missiles. This would mainly hurt MIRV-type missiles and recon drones, but I'm not sure how big the effect would be in practice since I don't personally use either of these designs. You would have to reduce speed (i.e., EP modifier) to reduce fuel use to maintain the range, but it is not a straight 5x reduction because of the 5/2-power scaling with EP modifier which applies to all engines. Considering that this is also coming with halving the cost of all missiles, I think it could work out okay, but someone who uses these kinds of devices should probably weigh in with some analysis instead of taking my word for it.

Also, note we don't have to be married to 5x, I only use this because it is the current maximum factor. Any other reasonable value can be used.

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Just to be fair from my end, my proposal of moving the x10 multiplier from size 2 to size 4 would mean;
Size 2 engines would use 41.4% more fuel (current S1 modifier),
Size 1 engines would use 100% more fuel (current S0.5 modifier), and
Size 0.5 engines would use 182.8% more fuel (current S0.25 modifier).

So what you're proposing is to change the constant under the SQRT for missile engines only? Offhand, I can see how it could work and be a benefit for large missiles, mainly they can get more speed (by carrying less fuel) for the same range which helps make up some ground against PD. On principle, I don't like the idea of changing the actual size scaling vs ship engines, since that introduces a mechanical inconsistency between engine types (as opposed to having an additional mechanic, as currently or as a flat scaling like I'm suggesting), but aside from that it is intriguing and ultimately it is Steve's principles that matter, not mine.  :)