Author Topic: Independent Cruiser  (Read 5507 times)

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Offline Ulzgoroth

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2020, 07:28:15 PM »
I hear people saying that diversifying a ship to use ASMs and beams is a bad idea. But what about having a primarily beam ship that carries a few short range (1m km at most) very fast and very strong missile to be used as an 'i win' button against other ships? Think of the spaceship version of a Roman Pilum javelin that is thrown right before your melee infantry hits the enemies lines.

Can missiles that can reach a target in under 15 second bypass all PD?

It is pure nonsense that combining beams with ASM is a bad idea as such a ship can act in many roles and it is not in common for ships to eventually end up in situation where it is deadly serious and having both will save you.

In a beam fight you rather have 20 beams on 10 ships than 25 beams on 5 ships given the same tonnage on said ships. Sure the one side have half the tonnage in the fight, but that other half is dead weight in this fight as they too have ASM ships, we are talking about specialised designs here so we have to assume there is five more ships that don't carry any beams at all either there or somewhere else.

You have to trade some flexibility for another kind of flexibility. 

You might have sent a fleet of 25 ships and did not expect to hold a jump point so you only brought 5 dedicated beam ships. The other side also brought 25 ships and all of them had beams so they had no problem sitting on that JP for 12 month guarding it.

You loose some flexibility in tailoring a fleet for a specific mission and might need to bring some extra tonnage compared with a more specialised fleet to have the same capabilities in some areas. But... this is where you see half specialised ships enter the picture. Some ship types would generally be primarily focusing on one category while being weak or lacking some category. Say an escort ship that lack any direct anti-ship capabilities but can provide it indirectly through light means such as in beam combat or AMM or perhaps Anti-craft missiles with lower yields and short range.
You're talking about multi-function ships in a fleet context. (And I strongly disagree on that, but that's beside the point.)

But for an independent cruiser this isn't relevant. You aren't choosing between 20 beams on 10 ships or 25 beams on 5 ships, you're choosing between 0 beams or 2 beams or 5 beams. Of course, it's not beams that are really the sticky point there. 2 beams out of a possible 5 may lose a fight, but it's still reasonably functional. 2 ASM launchers out of a possible 5, though, very likely doesn't do anything but entertain the enemy's missile defense suite. Missile attacks on anything but defenseless targets are a go big or go home situation.
 

Offline Black

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2020, 01:26:29 AM »
I think beams are definitely better for independent ship. You need lot of missiles to get through PD and destroy the target and solo ship will not have enough magazine capacity to do that.

I am using large survey cruisers that operate independently. And they have mix of turreted lasers and small caliber railguns (most likely switch to gauss later), so if they encounter spoilers they can survive long enough under missile fire to escape the system. That also gives them enough firepower to take down smaller spoiler ships.

In general I am using much less missiles in C# even for my fleet combatants. Now I admit I have only fought with spoilers but from my experience they pack a ton of PD so to get through with missiles gets expensive very fast.

 

Offline hubgbf

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2020, 02:33:02 AM »
There is something I do not understand there : Why do you want to have an independant ship able to fight for surveying?

To be able to fight you'll need a very high tonnage of weapons, which means a very big costly ship.
Better to have a small ship unable to fight back, only able to defend itself for a limited time, but difficult to spot.

My exploration vessel are light carriers with armor and CIWS as they operate solo.
They are small (6 kT), slow, with fuel efficient engines, and they carry a jump fighter and several fighter scout with passives.
They send their jump fighter to scan the other side, wait for them to come back, jump themselves, then send their fighters scout scan every planet.
In case of problem, they jump and flee. If they can, they wait for their scout to come back, if not, medals are posthumous awarded. Their jump fighter can serve as a mean to send an emergency signal back the chain.

Usually a 110 tons fighter scout  with 0.2 HS passive will spot ennemy planet or ships before being detected if he has good thermal reduction.
Once a system is clear, send unarmed grav and geo survey ship.

I do not have tested this procedure extensively in C# but reading AAR make me guess that NPR and other space monsters often camp on jump point once you are detected using it. As jump point assault are costly, better to be undetected.

Note, if I have enough tonnage my light exploration carrier also have a slow firing missile launcher and a bit of magazine, to be able to put advanced warning buoy in place (also roleplayed as communication relay), or to send a scan missile toward a dangerous place.
 
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Offline sneer

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2020, 02:41:20 AM »
For ships below 10-20 kt mixing beams and asm doesn't work well but the bigger the ship the smaller problem
I prefer a bit higher tonnage and mix system a lot ( usually have 2 classes of ships in use ) what makes upgrades super easy
30-40kt ships or higher have really tremendous survivability that let experience accumulate fast
 
 

Offline Black

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2020, 03:06:36 AM »
There is something I do not understand there : Why do you want to have an independant ship able to fight for surveying?

Well in my case it is roleplay. Did you read Starfire books (Hun class survey cruiser)? Did you see Star Trek?

For Aurora I would say most optimal are smaller, specialized ships. But most of us roleplay to some extent so most optimal design might not be what we go for because of that.

I personally do not really like single purpose, single weapon system ships. If I look at naval ships in human history that is rarely a case so I most often have combination of weapons on my ships that comes from some self imposed RP reasons and such.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 03:09:48 AM by Black »
 

Offline hubgbf

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2020, 03:25:38 AM »
Hi Black,

Yes, I did.

If my memory is correct the Hun survey cruiser do not operate alone, isn't it?
In Starfire books survey cruiser very often have a military escort fleet, even in peace time.
It is perhaps a biased perception as survey operation described in the books tend to have a fatal issue when encountering the main ennemy.

About star trek, I like the whole thing, but IMHO the enterprise can do everything as it is better for a TV show.
Only one ship to modelize fot special effects, better identification for the viewer, and so on...

On earth, I think that exploration was mostly made with light military ships optimized for long range operation by lowering its weapon quantity, or lightly militarized merchantship, ships operating in small fleets due to navigation hazards.
Let's see Colomb expedition with caravel for exemple.

But if it is for roleplaying, I can only hope you have fun with big fighting survey ships :p
 

Offline Black

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2020, 04:48:41 AM »
We are getting a bit offtopic. I think that at the beginning of the war against the Bugs, Huns operated in small flotillas without military escort, but it is years since I read the books so I may be mistaken. At the end they have weapons and my survey cruisers are inspired by them.

When my survey cruisers (only military ships that I operate independently) start surveying the system, they operate alone and will most likely not be close enough to support each other even if the are in same star system, but the weapons should give them enough time to escape the system with hostile presence.

I had several situations with Precursors, when I got under missile fire from their ships and so far I was always able to escape because I was able to shoot down the missiles.

I am more WW2 guy so I do not have deep knowledge about age of sail exploration. But I would say that few 10-12cm lasers/railguns and some gauss are relatively good approximation for survey cruiser equivalent to age of exploration ship (I checked some info and it seem that Santa Maria had some naval cannons).

But my comment about singe weapon system ships was aimed more at Aurora military ships in general not at exploration ships in particular. From what I know even sail ships had usually several types of cannons like culverins, corronades and so on.

So all my military ships have several weapon systems and at least one of those does not rely on ammo. But they still operate in flotillas or squadrons and never alone.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2020, 04:58:15 AM »
Well.... Aurora IS a role-playing game. The Author of the game Steve have explicitly stayed away from detailing things like government, politics and cultural mechanics for this very purpose and it IS up to the player to decide if a specific style is optimised based on the cultural and ethical rules of the society it is built in.

We have to imagine that ships are not built in a vacuum in any game and people who role-play often either decide on a specific way they like to do things or do things as things happen in the game and base every decision made based on the information given within the game. Using your own knowledge of game mechanic and such is pretty much forbidden in such scenarios.

Many people do a variation of these types of role-play.

This also mean that a Star-Trek type of ship can make very much sense and be quite effective from that point of view, it does have to be pretty big and expensive though.  :)

There is nothing wrong with just playing the game mechanics and that is your choice... but optimisation always comes down to the personal rules of the game from the person playing the game. The game is built around that fact, it is simply a tool set with mechanics for players to mold to their harts content.

If someone send an entire fleet with their survey ships in order to scout and keep them safe you can't say that is not "optimized" play because loosing a small survey vessel once in a while is far less resources than protecting them with an entire flee all the time. This depend on the political climate in which why this decision was made and how much you value skilled labour and the lives of your crew, officers and scentists.

Aurora is NOT a traditiona game in the sense there are no victory conditions or even any way to "WIN" the game. You can keep playing until your computer burns the processor for having too many systems, NPRs and civilians in play... ;)


You're talking about multi-function ships in a fleet context. (And I strongly disagree on that, but that's beside the point.)

But for an independent cruiser this isn't relevant. You aren't choosing between 20 beams on 10 ships or 25 beams on 5 ships, you're choosing between 0 beams or 2 beams or 5 beams. Of course, it's not beams that are really the sticky point there. 2 beams out of a possible 5 may lose a fight, but it's still reasonably functional. 2 ASM launchers out of a possible 5, though, very likely doesn't do anything but entertain the enemy's missile defense suite. Missile attacks on anything but defenseless targets are a go big or go home situation.

I agree... using missile launchers on an independent cruiser make very little sense as you need weight of fire. In that case you would need use box launched missiles as they will not be expected to be close to a resupply point anyway. But beam would be my preference as they are more useful overall for self defence. Missile weapons are usually more of a group effort to make them work properly.

When talking about missiles I rarely find that allowing ships to fire ASM at all make much sense until you have very strong cloaking abilities. Fighters and FAC do this so much more efficiently. They are quicker to both build, upgrade and specialise than any ship can ever hope to be. They are faster, stealthier and just deadlier in so many ways. Fighters are so much easier to build early in C# that the time for missile cruisers pas so quick I rarely see them at all even in my campaigns of 10-15% science rates.

I only ever use ASM missile for system patrol craft, fighters and FAC these days, this has mainly to do with role-play because it sort of falls naturally from how things turns out. Putting full size launchers on huge ships simply limits the volume of fire and using box launchers on huge ships is extremely limiting on the type of missile you can use and reloading of the platform is tricky when far from home and they loose the very important stealth factor (before cloaking that is). On any ASM ship just rip out the launcher and part of the magazines, plug in some hangars and some extra fuel and off you go...  ;)

The only ASM and use of regular launchers is for engaging opposing small crafts, so size 3-4 missiles with say 4-9 yields typically. As these smaller ships have much more limited defence capabilities using such system is highly efficient. Against dedicated PD defences then regular sized launchers are almost useless unless you are seriously outmatching en enemy.

I use specialised ships too but mostly in rather small numbers. For example Monitor ships... usually a ship at 10-20kt range with the most powerful engines I can build for speed and extremely short range, usually around a billion or two kilometres. These will have to be moved by fleet tugs to do anything useful outside guarding colonies, jump points or whatever real estate they are built to protect.

Specialisation is more about how much variation I can put into a ship within the 20% difference that a single yard to do with any ship type.

I'm likely to have like one frigate type, one destroyer type one cruiser type and one carrier type ship and then have allot of different variant of them that reside within that 20% variation.

When it comes to anti-missile defences then due to the nature of missiles I'm never ever going to deploy a fleet without anti-missile defences so there is NO loss to put some PD on every capital ship.
The Frigate usually is an older ship that used to be a destroyer, perhaps changed a bit but slower (perhaps old engines) and their primary mission is patrol, scouting and performing escort for my supply train or other high value commercial designs or perhaps a squadron of Monitors. The Frigates are not suppose to operate far from supplies and fuel.
I then have the destroyer who in general is the main escort and patrol ship and its primary mission are anti-missile and will primarily have most of those systems. The rate at which I build destroyer would the correlate to how important I think this mission is to the overall performance of the fleet.
The cruiser if the fleet flagship and the one with the best sensors and usually a bigger hangar for more dedicated scout crafts. They are sort of an overgrown destroyer with more space dedicated for scouting and perceiving the surroundings better, it will have the strongest armour and shields and a really powerful beam complement.
The carrier is more like a mesh of a typical battleship and carrier... usually about 25% hangars and the rest is armour, shield and beam weapons and a good chunk of PD weapons too.

As almost all of my ships use hangars there is an option at times to fill most if not all of it with strike crafts. This has happened when there has been a need for a dedicated and very strong alpha strike at a specific target. It is good to have options that way. Otherwise scouting is the primary function and anti-craft operations a secondary role.

Fighters is usually a weapon that I see as the main branch for deep space combat. If I'm to attack an enemy colony or JP I'm more about brute force using the defensive nature of my much stronger fleet to throw any defensive missile barrages to the sides and engaging them at close range with both missiles and beams until I win.

Obviously this s not one correct way to look at the game... this is just one natural way that it seem to develop for me in most games.

Building ships this way you need to build allot less shipyards... ships are easier to upgrade as they come in smaller sizes. Yards are much quicker to retool as a direct effect of that reducing the time in which you can upgrade existing ships. You can very easy change a ship from one type of a class to the other as it is mostly switching out components for other components, so very little material costs, just a small amount of time. You yards will also tend to be in use allot more as each yard service so many more ships of a single class. Adding slipways are more industry effective than building new yards.

Ships also by definition work very well both alone or in small groups.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 05:27:48 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline L0ckAndL0ad

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2020, 07:28:58 AM »
Interesting thread.

If I was to construct a cruiser for its classic lines-of-communication/behind-the-lines/scouting role, I'd definitely go with armored laser turrets, CIWS/Gauss PD and maybe a small hangar for 1-2 tiny scout/jump scout fighters. And large MSP storage + extra Damage Control. Not sure about the sensors suite.

Sounds fun.

Speaking of, is it actually helpful in current C# Aurora to attack enemy (AI) supply bases to deprive it from refueling opportunities? Have anyone tried/seen impact? I think Steve said that NPRs should be fuel dependent, IIRC, no?
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2020, 09:14:53 AM »
Interesting thread.

If I was to construct a cruiser for its classic lines-of-communication/behind-the-lines/scouting role, I'd definitely go with armored laser turrets, CIWS/Gauss PD and maybe a small hangar for 1-2 tiny scout/jump scout fighters. And large MSP storage + extra Damage Control. Not sure about the sensors suite.

Sounds fun.

Speaking of, is it actually helpful in current C# Aurora to attack enemy (AI) supply bases to deprive it from refueling opportunities? Have anyone tried/seen impact? I think Steve said that NPRs should be fuel dependent, IIRC, no?

Fuel and ordnance yes but not maintenance as NPR currently don't need to maintain their ship in the way the player does. He has said that he have plans for a similar function for maintenance for NPR as for that of fuel too in the future though. We will have to wait and see about that.
 

Offline Borealis4x (OP)

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2020, 11:14:24 AM »
Interesting thread.

If I was to construct a cruiser for its classic lines-of-communication/behind-the-lines/scouting role, I'd definitely go with armored laser turrets, CIWS/Gauss PD and maybe a small hangar for 1-2 tiny scout/jump scout fighters. And large MSP storage + extra Damage Control. Not sure about the sensors suite.

Sounds fun.

Speaking of, is it actually helpful in current C# Aurora to attack enemy (AI) supply bases to deprive it from refueling opportunities? Have anyone tried/seen impact? I think Steve said that NPRs should be fuel dependent, IIRC, no?

About turrets: I've only used them so far for PD weapons and I always go for 25% accuracy guns mounted on a quad turret. This provides the best HS to firepower ratio from what I understand. Now, if we are talking capital ships they are obviously not going to be fast enough to track smaller targets with their beams, so they would benefit from main beam-weapon turrets.

How would you suggest to build them? Is it best the do the same as with PD weapons and have quad 25% accuracy beams?
 

Offline Black

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2020, 11:25:54 AM »
I would go with 12cm lasers for dual purpose turrets, they have good firing intervals to be used as PD and decent range and they are still relatively small. Gauss has low range to be used as dual purpose weapon.
 

Offline Borealis4x (OP)

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2020, 11:29:12 AM »
I would go with 12cm lasers for dual purpose turrets, they have good firing intervals to be used as PD and decent range and they are still relatively small. Gauss has low range to be used as dual purpose weapon.

I was talking primary weapons, but i suppose it would make sense for bigger ships to rely on smaller turreted secondaries to take out smaller targets rather than trying to cram a huge turreted main gun into them.

That method might also solve the problem of me wanting an offensive beam weapon on my small escorts but not having enough space.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 11:45:56 AM by BasileusMaximos »
 

Offline Black

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2020, 11:49:35 AM »
You can go to 15cm lasers with better tech, but you only need capacitor recharge rate 4 to get 5s RoF on 12cm laser, 15cm lasers need rate 6. Something like 30cm laser will have RoF that is IMO too long for PD use.
 

Offline Borealis4x (OP)

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Re: Independent Cruiser
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2020, 11:56:44 AM »
To me those are still mere secondaries. When I talk about primaries I mean Particle Lancers of the highest possible caliber or at least spinal weapons.  ;D