Author Topic: Survey Group Strategies  (Read 9359 times)

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Offline Brian Neumann

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Re: Survey Group Strategies
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2009, 06:22:32 PM »
Quote from: "Starkiller"
PS: The fuel harvester mod is a good idea. I never thought of it. I'll have to add them to my tanker. If I check the gas giants in the system first,
      and find sorium, I can have the tanker harvest, while the Huns get on with THEIR job. Thanks for a REALLY good idea. :)

No problem.  I tried it out one time and was sold on it after that.
 

Offline alanwebber

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Re: Survey Group Strategies
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2009, 02:07:37 AM »
I'd drop the shields and increase your armour. When you come to survey nebulas you'll find the extra armour reduces survey time dramatically.

Alan
Regards

Alan Webber
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: Survey Group Strategies
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2009, 09:26:49 PM »
I did a gunboat survey squadron once. I think the designs are listed here somewhere, and this was an older version of Aurora, so the db has been overwritten. 1 mothership and 5 parasites. It worked fairly well.

Offline Starkiller

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Re: Survey Group Strategies
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2009, 10:00:05 PM »
I take it that parasites aren't fighters. I had wondered what they were. Are they, then, ships if 1000 tons or less?

Eric
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: Survey Group Strategies
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2009, 11:32:49 PM »
Parasites = Gunboats. Larger than fighters, but smaller than ships. Usually in the 1000-1500 ton range.

Offline waresky

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Re: Survey Group Strategies
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2009, 10:15:25 AM »
In Megatraveller (Steve know very well) are a "System Defence Squadroon" concept,in Naval doctrine.Are same as "Gunboat" no JumpDrive and more weaponry.In a Civilized Systems this Squadroons are thousands and in a Interstellar Warfare are a damned wall before planetary assault can made..
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Survey Group Strategies
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2009, 04:02:46 AM »
Things that have come up are deployment times, overhaul times and bug eyed monsters.

I have found (possibly due to astorography) that my survey forces spend a considerable amount of time and fuel getting out to the frontier.  This means they burn a good chunck of fuel before they even can start survey work.  Also the deployments are generally 5+ years including at least one refueling and re-supply break.  A 5 year deployment for an armed ship is brutal on its systems and would require a very extensive maintenace overhaul at the end but the chance of encountering the bug eyed monsters and not detecting them far enough out to avoid loss of a ship is also not good.

For the Draak I am still trying to formulate a plan to deal with this.  I have 45 known and 25 surveyed systems with the frontier now about 4 jumps out from the homeworld (or more in some cases).  From what I can see part of your survey strategy has to be the establishement of forward operating bases with fuel and maintence facilities.  This makes both the sorium processing module and maintenance module potentially more valuable then they seem first off.  Otherwise you burn a lot of fuel simply getting your ships back to where you can overhaul them.  In addition the time to fly back home is added to the clock on the ship so it prolongs the maintenance time.

It might be possible to invest in technological solutions:  maintenance modules, sorium processing modules and asteroid mining modules would allow for a fleet to set up shop and process the materials needed to keep the survey ships operational longer and allow insitu overhauls (potentially at more frequent intervals).

It is clear that you need to probe the system, leaving a ship at the entrance jump point simply to ensure you don't end up with the whole survey force destroyed.  But this hardly seems to a major time or fuel constraint.  And as Kurt has observed even a fairly modest amount of survey ships can explore an area of space it will take  decades to exploit.

The bug eyed monster question; however, is not so easy to answer.  Although you can use non-jump warships this leaves them vulurable to being stranded, its hard to judge the value of a jump versus non-jump escort.  I prefer all jump capable ships for survey but its obvious you gain.  The other question is what sort of force level do you want?  Or put another way what do you want the escort to accomplish beyond getting killed in a hopeless battle.  Does it make sense to include a sizable battle group of what ends up being a very long term deployment?  You have to factor in colliers and tankers as well if you are a missile using race and still the question comes up: what is the mission of this force?

I find it difficult to justify a throw away force, since if it ever gets used it will get lost anyway and accomplish nothing of significance.  I'd rather loose the odd probe survey ship as opposed to the odd probe survey ship and several warships.  Equally I find it hard to justify designing and building a jump capable ship(s) and then deploying it in signficant numbers on what are mostly routine operations which put serious time on the warships maintenace clocks.  The other alternative is to arm the survey ships, but it is again unclear what exactly that will accomplish unless you use the star trek model and send BBs out as "peaceful exploration vessels equiped with non-military crew" err uhm riggghhhttt.  I'm not even seeing a "good" solution here, but that is because I can't figure out what I expect the survey escorts to actually accomplish.

In starfire my survey vessels were armed and had support assets to allow them to make a warp point defence which would stop anything but a serious assault...largely through the deployment of mines and IDEW to back up the survey ships.  I never had to field test it though.

Gunboats look to be a viable alternative with a tender for aurora.  The Draak are limited at the moment by having but a single model of jump engine, and the survey ships would need to grow to mount weapons, requiring a new model of jump engine (in the works but down the pipeline several years).

Still I think until I can answer the question of what I want the survey escort to actually accomplish it is difficult to design a force to accomplish the mission.  This accurately reflects the real world reality of most modern industrial countries...
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Survey Group Strategies
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2009, 11:45:58 AM »
Quote from: "Paul M"
Things that have come up are deployment times, overhaul times and bug eyed monsters.

I have found (possibly due to astorography) that my survey forces spend a considerable amount of time and fuel getting out to the frontier.  This means they burn a good chunck of fuel before they even can start survey work.  Also the deployments are generally 5+ years including at least one refueling and re-supply break.  A 5 year deployment for an armed ship is brutal on its systems and would require a very extensive maintenace overhaul at the end but the chance of encountering the bug eyed monsters and not detecting them far enough out to avoid loss of a ship is also not good.

For the Draak I am still trying to formulate a plan to deal with this.  I have 45 known and 25 surveyed systems with the frontier now about 4 jumps out from the homeworld (or more in some cases).  From what I can see part of your survey strategy has to be the establishement of forward operating bases with fuel and maintence facilities.  This makes both the sorium processing module and maintenance module potentially more valuable then they seem first off.  Otherwise you burn a lot of fuel simply getting your ships back to where you can overhaul them.  In addition the time to fly back home is added to the clock on the ship so it prolongs the maintenance time.

It might be possible to invest in technological solutions:  maintenance modules, sorium processing modules and asteroid mining modules would allow for a fleet to set up shop and process the materials needed to keep the survey ships operational longer and allow insitu overhauls (potentially at more frequent intervals).

It is clear that you need to probe the system, leaving a ship at the entrance jump point simply to ensure you don't end up with the whole survey force destroyed.  But this hardly seems to a major time or fuel constraint.  And as Kurt has observed even a fairly modest amount of survey ships can explore an area of space it will take  decades to exploit.

The bug eyed monster question; however, is not so easy to answer.  Although you can use non-jump warships this leaves them vulurable to being stranded, its hard to judge the value of a jump versus non-jump escort.  I prefer all jump capable ships for survey but its obvious you gain.  The other question is what sort of force level do you want?  Or put another way what do you want the escort to accomplish beyond getting killed in a hopeless battle.  Does it make sense to include a sizable battle group of what ends up being a very long term deployment?  You have to factor in colliers and tankers as well if you are a missile using race and still the question comes up: what is the mission of this force?

I find it difficult to justify a throw away force, since if it ever gets used it will get lost anyway and accomplish nothing of significance.  I'd rather loose the odd probe survey ship as opposed to the odd probe survey ship and several warships.  Equally I find it hard to justify designing and building a jump capable ship(s) and then deploying it in signficant numbers on what are mostly routine operations which put serious time on the warships maintenace clocks.  The other alternative is to arm the survey ships, but it is again unclear what exactly that will accomplish unless you use the star trek model and send BBs out as "peaceful exploration vessels equiped with non-military crew" err uhm riggghhhttt.  I'm not even seeing a "good" solution here, but that is because I can't figure out what I expect the survey escorts to actually accomplish.

In starfire my survey vessels were armed and had support assets to allow them to make a warp point defence which would stop anything but a serious assault...largely through the deployment of mines and IDEW to back up the survey ships.  I never had to field test it though.

Gunboats look to be a viable alternative with a tender for aurora.  The Draak are limited at the moment by having but a single model of jump engine, and the survey ships would need to grow to mount weapons, requiring a new model of jump engine (in the works but down the pipeline several years).

Still I think until I can answer the question of what I want the survey escort to actually accomplish it is difficult to design a force to accomplish the mission.  This accurately reflects the real world reality of most modern industrial countries...

Over time I have drifted towards deploying all jump-capable ships for survey duty, not usually armed, but always equipped with the best and largest passive and EM sensors I can fit into the hull.  Making them all jump-capable gives vast improvements in efficiency, because you never have to have one ship waiting for another to finish its survey because the waiting ship has no jump drive.  Also, making them all jump capable removes the possibility of having a survey group trapped when the sole jumpship is captured or destroyed.  

Kurt
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Survey Group Strategies
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2009, 09:18:42 PM »
Quote from: "Kurt"
Over time I have drifted towards deploying all jump-capable ships for survey duty, not usually armed, but always equipped with the best and largest passive and EM sensors I can fit into the hull.  Making them all jump-capable gives vast improvements in efficiency, because you never have to have one ship waiting for another to finish its survey because the waiting ship has no jump drive.  Also, making them all jump capable removes the possibility of having a survey group trapped when the sole jumpship is captured or destroyed.

This is an interesting example of "historical warts" for me.  In my previous games, my engine tech was high enough during start-up that I could afford to make my warp survey ships jump capable - they were actually my standard jump ship.  For geo-survey, I always used small, non-jump capable ships - since I always leave a jump ship at the entry WP the "waiting around" issue wasn't so bad.

In my most recent campaign, however, I went Pre-TNT.  My initial engine tech was so bad that I had to go single-role for jump and warp survey ships.  Now that I'm getting to a high engine tech, it's not worth changing philosophies, mainly because I've stopped exploration (my exploration out-ran my practical range for starting new colonies), so I don't have a big need for warp-survey ships.  So my fleet mix is going to be different in this case - many more single-role ships, mainly because my original fleet set-up was for single-role ships, and it's too inefficient to incrementally switch over to dual-role ships.

Similar things have been going on with my tech research - I find that the set of research bonuses that I have available with commanders is much more influential in when techs get pursued and which ignored.

John
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Survey Group Strategies
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2009, 03:02:33 AM »
In case it got buried the Draak use all jump capable multi-role survey vessels.  You can find the design in the ship section, I'm not happy with the lack of an active sensor system but that will get fixed in the 2nd version of the ship.  What affects the ships for me is a number of factors:

"Historical Warts": the Draak have only one model of jump engine good for 3 ships and 3900 Tons max.  In the research queue is both an efficiency upgrade and 4 ships per squadron but that is years away from the current game date.  But even now beyond making a more efficient 3900Ton/4ship version I'm not sure what others will get made.

Government (Role Play) decisions: survey ships would mount only drives 1 generation behind the military ones.  The plan is to include 1st generation suppression to a civilian drive in the next gen ship.  They also mount a good EM passive system, plus a civillian sized thermal, because for detecting inhabited planets EM signatures are usually higher then Thermal.

For a while I tried to use my older non jump capable ships mixed in with the jump capable ones but as deployments became longer they became less effective and were just removed from service.  They were more hassel to micromanage then they added in efficiency.  I've also reached the limit (4-5 jumps outward surveyed) of my effective colonization space and am transitioning to a exploitation mode to build up the systems I have explored and are best suited to colonization.  But it is also becoming more and more clear that the exploration groups are well out on the branch, which is what is prompting the questions about escorts.  And frankly I'm not sure what to do, mainly because I'm not very sure what I want the escorts to accomplish.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Survey Group Strategies
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2009, 05:47:40 PM »
I don't send escorts out with my survey groups.  Instead I try to have a chain of jump ships back to "civilization" so that contact with an NPR can be immediately communicated home.  The fleet is stationed at inhabited planets.

As far as I can tell, unless you've got a big technological or economic advantage over an NPR, all an escort will do is annoy him :-)  If you've got a big tech advantage, then you probably have a speed advantage and your survey ships can run away.  This is the way it worked in all my previous games - the NPR I encountered we all behind me in tech and weren't able to catch me if they proved hostile (unless my ships stumbled upon precursors and got blown to dust bunnies when they tried to say "hi").  In the current game, due to the pre-TNT start, all the NPR are way ahead of me in tech/speed (I'm only now catching up) but the AI haven't been very aggressive about leaving their home systems when I interfere with their survey ships.

John
 

Offline waresky

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Re: Survey Group Strategies
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2009, 04:18:10 AM »
Ive found a my personel (and atm useful) strategies.
2 Geo Ships
2 Grav Ships
1 Supply Ships
1 Scout EarlyWarning Ships
1 JumpTender
2 Tankers

With this configurations ive reach 7-8 Jump distance from Sol without problem or need to recover on any nearest base.
Obviously lack on Defence,but speed r core of this ScoutRon group.
 

Offline mrwigggles

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Re:
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2010, 06:13:54 PM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"

...

3) Some type of jump-capable drone, similar to Starfire courier drones. The problem here would be explaining why these drones could jump but the minimum size for a ship's jump drive is 15 HS and also why you couldn't put a warhead on them, so this is probably not a realistic option.

...

Steve


There was talk in nother thread about jump capable missiles for surveying purposes, being called buoys. Wherein the minimum HS was nulled for Jump engines, for ships below HS15 would have a group limit of zero or one, with ships equal to greater then HS15 would have the usual 3 limit.

A jump capable message buoy would offer nother avenue for fostering the information back to HQ. You could equip a tender ship with these buoy.
 

Offline waresky

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Re: Survey Group Strategies
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2010, 10:39:26 AM »
A whole newly Survey Strategies from our Imperial Bureau of Naval Design.

Code: [Select]
HMS Long Beach I class Scout Carrier    30000 tons     2576 Crew     10038.5 BP      TCS 600  TH 1552.5  EM 0
3450 km/s    JR 3-100     Armour 1-86     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1200/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 66     PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 109%    IFR: 1.5%    Maintenance Capacity 18804 MSP    Max Repair 2400 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 7000 tons    
Maintenance Modules: 5 module(s) capable of supporting ships of 1000 tons

J30000(3-100) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 30000 tons    Distance 100k km     Squadron Size 3
M-Type SCAM Drive E2.6 (9)    Power 230    Fuel Use 26%    Signature 172.5    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 1,550,000 Litres    Range 357.7 billion km   (1199 days at full power)

AMM-1 Active Search Sensor S800-R1 (30%) (1)     GPS 800     Range 8.0m km    Resolution 1
BattleSystem Thermal Sensor TH50-1200 (30%) (1)     Sensitivity 1200     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  1200m km

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

and related parassite-ships:
Scout-Tanker
Code: [Select]
HMS Missippi ScT3 class Scout Tanker    1000 tons     92 Crew     305.5 BP      TCS 20  TH 172.5  EM 0
11500 km/s     Armour 1-8     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 4%    IFR: 0.1%    Maintenance Capacity 334 MSP    Max Repair 144 MSP

M-Type SCAM Drive E2.6 (1)    Power 230    Fuel Use 26%    Signature 172.5    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 600,000 Litres    Range 4153.8 billion km   (4180 days at full power)

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

Scout Radar
Code: [Select]
HMS Gange ScR1 class Scout Radar    1000 tons     114 Crew     1506.5 BP      TCS 20  TH 172.5  EM 0
11500 km/s     Armour 1-8     Shields 0-0     Sensors 96/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 4%    IFR: 0.1%    Maintenance Capacity 1648 MSP    Max Repair 1120 MSP

M-Type SCAM Drive E2.6 (1)    Power 230    Fuel Use 26%    Signature 172.5    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres    Range 207.7 billion km   (209 days at full power)

B900 ASS S560-R18 (30%) (1)     GPS 10080     Range 100.8m km    Resolution 18
Thermal Sensor TH4-96 (30%) (1)     Sensitivity 96     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  96m km

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

Scout Grav
Code: [Select]
HMS Missouri ScG2 class Scout GravSurvey    1000 tons     111 Crew     534.5 BP      TCS 20  TH 172.5  EM 0
11500 km/s     Armour 1-8     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/20/4/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 4%    IFR: 0.1%    Maintenance Capacity 585 MSP    Max Repair 150 MSP

M-Type SCAM Drive E2.6 (1)    Power 230    Fuel Use 26%    Signature 172.5    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres    Range 207.7 billion km   (209 days at full power)

EM Detection Sensor EM0.5-20 (30%) (1)     Sensitivity 20     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  20m km
Improved Gravitational Sensors (2)   4 Survey Points

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

Scout Geo
Code: [Select]
HMS Carolina ScG1 class Scout GeoSurvey    1000 tons     111 Crew     634.5 BP      TCS 20  TH 172.5  EM 0
11500 km/s     Armour 1-8     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/20/6/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 4%    IFR: 0.1%    Maintenance Capacity 694 MSP    Max Repair 200 MSP

M-Type SCAM Drive E2.6 (1)    Power 230    Fuel Use 26%    Signature 172.5    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres    Range 207.7 billion km   (209 days at full power)

EM Detection Sensor EM0.5-20 (30%) (1)     Sensitivity 20     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  20m km
Advanced Gravitational Sensors (2)   6 Survey Points

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

Next Year (game year:)) we laid down a 1st Survey Group with an JumpTanker attached for CV refuel.
 

Offline Beersatron

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Re: Survey Group Strategies
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2010, 12:47:42 PM »
Nice Waresky :)

What kind of tech level have you got your engines at?!

Although, I think the maintenance modules only work when the ship is in orbit of a Colony and the colony needs minerals, not maintenance supplies?