PS - If we go too much further down this road, I should probably split the discussion out into an OT thread so we don't hijack this one....
That's ok with me. It kind of looked to have drifted when I chimed in, but figured it would be easier to answer here.
I think that the advent of computers to do the bookkeeping has fundamentally changed gaming and the level of work that people will be willing to devote to running a game - it certainly did for me and I didn't even realize it!
That is my biggest concern. When competing with a video game they can play without needing to read the rules...the future of a game with more than a page of rules looks kind of dim....
If they actually had to get out something and do math....
One thing on rules. In Squad leader each rules section had a fluff heading.
Yeah. And that would be nice. But the 'fluff' had something it was based on. Whether history (ASL) or DWs fiction. Until SF has something like that again it is a little sticky.
That and I am kind of the fly in the ointment when it comes to adding rules or text to the current set. With my players being kids and my having to train them - I tend to dig my heels in against rules additions/extra text unless they are really necessary. Simplify - ok. Add for the sake of adding - not so cool. Which has gotten me into several 'discussions'.
Just thought to point out, that using a PC can help address a LOT of issues.
....
To be honest, I think that if SF is to continue, it will need one of two things. Either:
1) Go to PC form (ala SFA).
2) Be "dumbed down" to a "beer and pretzels" type game.
Unfortunately, in this area, I am about as useful as ... Ok, I'm not useful at all.
But it has been brought up on the boards and among 'the powers that be' several times. And looked at. In that most of the 'powers that be' are some form of computer guru (although, compared to me, everyone seems to be anymore) there has been a bunch of discussion that I don't understand.
Some folks have made sys gen programs and speadsheets for Ultra (and GSF it think), but nothing like SFA to my knowledge (although I will admit to never having used any of them...).
All I can say is that it is being looked at. But what may become of it, I have no idea.
As for a 'beer and pretzel' type game, I don't know. I have long been an advocate for a simpler game. But other than SF#1, it never has been small enough to be 'beer and pretzels' to me. I doubt it could go back to that and be sustainable either.
Same here - I don't see any reason why the different versions can't exist side by side.
Having said that though - I don't know if Marvin has the time available to support both systems. Of course, the way around that would be to "editors" (for want of a better word) for the different editions (such as Fred for Cosmic, Cralis for Ultra, etc.) - people who manage the different editions, allowing Marvin to address Starfire in its entirity.
Having said that, Marvin is very anti-R3rd (for a variety of reasons), and I can't see that changing any time soon. (An example of the anti-R3rd, is the fact that he doesn't even sell ISF/R3rd ed any more (you can buy some of the supplements, but not the core rules)....)
As for supporting both versions. I have no issue with it, but it isn't my call.
As for editors covering the sets - that has happened, to a degree. Marvin has turned over the controls (for all intents and purposes) of Solar to cralis. It is pretty much his baby now. Which to me is a good thing. He has been the 'face' of the SDS site for some time, is the one most people deal with, and has the time/interest to work on it. A lot is happening behind the scenes (to me at least) in this area. But part of it is just deciding where to go and what direction to take.
Hence - my willingness to step out on a limb here and see if I get burned on either end of the candle.
As for Cosmic - I was really looking forward to it since all my players had started their games with 3e rules. We had plans to go back and do the 'separate universe' story and see where it went if we had stuck with the 3e rules for the 'Empires Camp.' But Fred seems to have become very scarce (I was worried for his health for a long time due to his disappearance -to be honest). I don't see anyone with the ability to pull 3e back from the brink without him. He is the only one with some claim to authorship in the Starfire books, and without that you would have to pretty much rewrite the entire set. I know Marvin has rights to the game, but anything in it that references DWs works could be a costly problem.
Without Fred, I don't know what the future of 3e is...
And I know that the issue with reprints of 3e materials probably transpired before the copyright issue, but I don't know that even if the SDS wanted to - that they could be printed in their previous forms without violating some laws - as DW made it clear he didn't sell the copyrights to the fiction/stories/setting (at least to my understanding. Wasn't there and don't have any knowledge but heresay, or any great knowledge of copyright law.).
As for the rules and size, I could write all the rules you need for tactical combat with standard basic ships on one page, or at most two pages. It is more a question of editing. Weber made the rules enjoyable to read, but not really all that good as rules (compared to an avalon hill game there was a lot of unclear things). But the more complex things get the larger the rules get to cover largely what one could call special cases and exceptions. But give Starfire to both a professional rules writer and a good editor and the size of the rules will collapse dramatically. Also a lot of rules exist to solely prevent people being "festive souls" as Matt pointed out that Weber refers to them as.
So true. I even wrote, and got the computer folks there to turn into something you could look at, a set called the Quick Start Rules - so that a new player could get started, or even try out the game without wading into or buying a 421 page rule set.
It consists of about 3 pages of rules (to include the weapon chart, blindspot illustration, ship list, and a few counters/scenarios), and one page of a hex map. I tried to aim at about 12y/o grammar (although it may take a few 'helps' from mom or dad) so just about anyone could download and play it. And print off a set for their friends without mom and dad getting torqued about burning up paper/ink. It would work with both Ultra and Solar, and for all intents could prime for GSF, although weapon ranges aren't identical IIRC.
And the game could easily be pared down to, perhaps, 150 pages, and still cover combat, ship construction, and a few other bits. Then leave the 400+ page monster for the folks who want to deal with it (and there are always those that do...). The big question is - would it be worth the effort to create a set that would be like that?
I think the first thing I want to say because maybe I'm not being clear. I like 3rdR but I also like GSF. It fixes some things that were clearly wrong in 3rdR. In both cases there is stuff I like and stuff I don't. I don't play GSF because I could never convince the München locals to play it due to lack of computer support.
I think you are fairly clear. I am just vague on what I am looking for. Figuring out the best hope to keep starfire going isn't exactly a clear cut path. And I agree. Most folks want some computer support anymore. My son (drakar on this and SDS board) is deploying overseas (Afghanistan) and plans to take SF with him. Even has a few buddies lined up to play it. He is playing it with a few folks from the SDS boards now to see if it needs tweaked.
And he has created his own spreadsheets, maps, etc, on the computer to help it along. It seems to be pretty standard. Even if I do like my P&P.
What I don't like about specifically SM2's economic changes ...
Snipped a bunch. Sorry.
Preaching to the choir here. As I said, we have a small book to handle the changes we made. Essentially we rewrote most of the rules.
We cut down growth, and then cut habs to one per 40 systems on average (I pregen the universe, so it stays fairly consistent/even). this has made it harder for the 100 ship fleets to exist. There is just to much space to cover it all with the resources of a single hab. A lot of the game is the dynamics of deployment and shifting fleets to deal with new issues/contacts.
It still grows though. But the players have dealt with it by turning their empires into 'sectors'. Each with its own 'turn sheet'. It all still totals up the same, but gets broken into more bite sized pieces. It is easier to lift 150# of hay, one 50# bale at a time - per se. The research still gets lumped into one 'empire wide' sheet with each sector donating its required amount as needed. But that is the only empire wide item for them. It does create some duplication of effort, but allows them to keep each sector on a single sheet and gives that sector its own 'feel' in the RPing of things.
We also (ok, I do) have a lot more 'SM' stuff crop up that taps the players funds. My wife keeps lots of CTs and DD sized CVEs as convoy escorts - as 'commerce raiders/pirates' crop up fairly regularly between the wide flung sectors. Same for all the players except that the middle boy (Chine/Sledge) tends more towards fewer/bigger in FG/CL as 'escorts' (but that suits his style).
So yes, coming up with a way to 'kill' the upward economic spiral of death is a biggy. But fixing it if no one is learning/playing the game won't help too much.
Also saying that in 3rdR you end up with identical ships is wrong.
Ok, not completely. But unless unusual circumstances crop up - there are some accepted trends. Like the 'weapon last' design. Or sticking a bunch of engines up front to 'pad' the weapon systems. Or the heavy S/A WP assault ship (how many 'non simul transit WP assaults have you seen with EX/ES...). Some things are just better handled in certain ways.
The players each come up with their own twists. Like the CT carriers in Kurt's fiction. But if someone else had decided to build a CT carrier - it probably would have had a striking resemblance to the others due to the limits of the rules. But that is ok. It is the little things that make all the difference.
From time to time I think that doing it with pen and paper would be easier than with computer support if the empire was relatively stable (so you didn't have to recalculate growth and value) and the empire/universe size was limited. Every time I use SFA I'm impressed again by the work Steve did in that. It is the best such program I have had a chance to use.
We have a lot of things we changed in our game to allow us to use P&P for a game lasting 300+ turns now. Even after this amount of time, my wife (New Euro) has a total income for her whole empire at less than 50,000 MC. Which broken up into a few sectors really isn't to hard to handle. But that is us.
With standard rules, it could turn into a nightmare keeping track of your empire on paper after even the first 100 turns. And yes, Steve and Kurt's fiction shows that. I love their stories, but could never have run that game in a notebook.
But I do appreciate the responses.
My biggest question now that the SDS/cralis has Solar out and a fair chunk of the bugs/typos ferreted out with the release of v6.01 - is what should be the next step? If I am part of where SF is going and I am going to help with SF, this is a big question to me. Adding to the rules doesn't sound (to me) like a good thing. Fixing typos, yes. More text...not so much.
And the best way to find out what folks want is to ask. I don't expect any of the folks here to just run off and buy a set of Solar. But you have all played SF before, and know what you liked most or perhaps even more important - disliked.
And there is a lot of history and wisdom over here. Ignoring it would be pretty foolish.
And I realize (for whatever reasons) that some of the folks here may never like the folks over there. But that doesn't mean I can't like all of you and value who you are and what you have to say.
And even if you go so far as to even 'hate' each other, I doubt anyone actually 'hates' SF.