Author Topic: 3rd Edition Rules  (Read 40746 times)

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Offline crucis

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #90 on: October 05, 2012, 10:48:04 AM »
The growth is 10x faster than the game clock.  Each turn economically is a year while each turn militarily is a month.  That is one part of the problem.  The other part of the problem is that everything returns a positive income one turn after emplacement.  This leads very quickly (or quickly, or eventually) to the simple fact that the "rich get richer faster and faster."  This was addressed in part with GSF by increasing the costs of ships and a few of the other costs limiting the amount of money left over to use for economic expansion, but all it does is kick the can down the road.  What starslayer and I did (based on Wolfgang's ideas and our experience with SM2 economics) was to slow down growth dramatically, removing the factor of 10.  Fundamentally that is what you are talking about with PTU growth.  It took us almost 170 turns to get from the normal start population to 3200.  Our growth rates are 7.5% for high growth, 3.5% for medium growth, and 2.3% for low growth and the growth is only every 10 turns.  It will take something like 170 turns for a medium to grow to a large.

This is pretty much ISF's growth rate (give or take a factor of 2).  Probably too slow for lots of people.

Paul, I think that we're looking at slightly different ways of doing a similar thing here, slowing down growth.  I suppose that I have a significant semantic gripe with the fact that "growth" in the PU/PTU model is called "population growth" and yet it's not applied to the actual measure of population (i.e. the PTU), but to the measure of economic output (i.e. the PU).  The rules can call it the PU, population unit, 'til the cows come home.  But the reality is that it is an Economic Unit, not a population unit. 

As for "Probably too slow for lots of people", I'm sick of the hypocrisy of these same people (probably) also complaining about how economies explode and the game becomes unplayable after a certain length of time.  HELLO!!!! It's because of that freaking growth!!!!  (Not yelling at you, Paul!)  If players want the game to remain playable even after many, many turns, growth has to be much slower!!!  That's all there is to it!


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But at the end of the day the issues are not dealt with, and are still present.  Slowing growth just pushes the point where you fall off the cliff down the road.  

In a sense, yes that's true.  Yes, you can start with just Earth and end up with an unplayable Galactic Imperium.  That doesn't concern me overly much.  I'd be mroe concerned over whether one could play 100 or 200 or 500 turns without the game collapsing of its own weight.  Also, I'm a bit concerned that it should remain playable as a p&p game after many turns.

Starslayer's comment from 4am this morning about how the SFA database overloaded by turn 75 due to excessive records for various things, like outposts and colonies on all those rocks, etc. was a bit of an eye-opener for me.  If Steve's SFA database gets overloaded that quickly, that's telling me that there's too many darn little colonial populations floating around.  And from a p&p perspective, it must be many, many times worse. 

So it makes me seriously question whether colonization of nearly so many "rocks" should be encouraged.  I realize that it was made more attractive as an alternate strategy for stay-at-homes, but I suspect that nearly everyone is colonizing lots of those rocks, and particularly Asteroid Belts where there are tons of those little rocks to put OP's on.  But I'm beginning to think that for the sake of long term game play, colonization of these rocks needs to be seriously reconsidered. 

Maybe end AB colonization, but increase the AB bonus to planetary incomes in the system in return.  Maybe say that each moon is worth +1% point to the ABB, or alternatively just apply a flat bonus number (5% or 10% perhaps) to cover all moons (and not bother counting how many there are).  Of course, as with the existing ABB, this overall bonus wouldn't exist until there's a sufficiently large population in the system to create an in-system CFN.  An advantage to doing all of this that I can see is that you wouldn't have to worry about the record keeping for a gazillion OP's and colonies on moons or asteroids.  You'd just get a solid bonus to planetary incomes. 

I don't think that I'd stop colonization of those "rock" planets.  There aren't nearly as many of them as there are moons and asteroids.  And besides, one can hardly exploit a system's moons and asteroid belts if there's no habitable planet to put people on.  So there has to be some places to colonize if you want to get a Asteroid and Moons Bonus.  Of course, since the bonus is a percentage of the income of actual planets, if there's no habitable planet in the system and you've colonized some Type O2 (or Type B barren) planet, you won't get nearly as much from the bonus as you would from colonizing the actual rocks.  But no solution will be perfect.  At least this one would have the benefit of reducing the number of records for moons and asteroids that have to be tracked.


Anyways, that's just some off the cuff thinking...

There are of course other areas that we've both mentioned where there are things that don't help economic matters as they should or could.  No maint on SYD's, the ISF R&D costs, no maint on mines and DSB's, and so on.  Those things could easily be fixed.

Well, that's enough for this post... :)






 

Offline Starslayer_D

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #91 on: October 05, 2012, 12:44:25 PM »
Current game we are doing a 'no asteroids colonising', and it works well.

Other idea, from a bookkeeping point for PnP .. what if Asteroids just count as  single population, multiply # of system hexes containing asteroids by 80 and have this as a flat population limit (generates no surplus PTU, and only counts as outposts for detection etc. purposes?), and consider them evenly distributed amon all hexes?

I had been thinking today about maybe.. charge a flat 5 or 10 MCr per population as bureocracy, and then a rate of say 1 MCr per 100 PTU .. but that would make v. large not attractive, and maybe not discourage rockballing enough. Maybe stagger the 1 MCr per 100 PTU by environement... all that buerocracy.

vl 4.5 MCR for a PU over 1600 PU..  maybe too expensive, as the income from 2 PU + 1 IU is not weighting this up.
asteroid..  10 MCr + 0.5 .. makes rockalls less interresting as an investment, but still after 10 PU they are in the positive.

I guess.. ideas to play around with, simulatinga governement buerocracy overhead.
 

Offline crucis

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #92 on: October 05, 2012, 01:04:52 PM »
Current game we are doing a 'no asteroids colonising', and it works well.

Other idea, from a bookkeeping point for PnP .. what if Asteroids just count as  single population, multiply # of system hexes containing asteroids by 80 and have this as a flat population limit (generates no surplus PTU, and only counts as outposts for detection etc. purposes?), and consider them evenly distributed amon all hexes?

Yes, I'm well aware of this, since it's how Ultra does it, though at only 20 PU per LM of orbit of the Asteroid Belt.  And while this isn't a bad idea, were I to consider banning moon colonization for the reasons stated in the previous post, I'd feel rather obliged to do the same for Asteroid Belts and replace their income with a bonus to planetary populations, similar to the existing ABB, but beefed up.


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I had been thinking today about maybe.. charge a flat 5 or 10 MCr per population as bureocracy, and then a rate of say 1 MCr per 100 PTU .. but that would make v. large not attractive, and maybe not discourage rockballing enough. Maybe stagger the 1 MCr per 100 PTU by environement... all that buerocracy.

vl 4.5 MCR for a PU over 1600 PU..  maybe too expensive, as the income from 2 PU + 1 IU is not weighting this up.
asteroid..  10 MCr + 0.5 .. makes rockballs less interesting as an investment, but still after 10 PU they are in the positive.

I guess.. ideas to play around with, simulating a government bureaucracy overhead.

Honestly, I'm not a fan of these bureaucracy and corruption ideas.  Sorry. 

As for discouraging "rockballing", I think that if I get to that point, I'd rather just ban them and replace their income with an income bonus to planetary populations in the same star system, because a big reason to dislike colonizing all those rocks to me is less about the income and more about the excessive record keeping that is required.  Think about it.  If you have an asteroid belt at 120 LM with 5 OP's per AB sysHex, that's a total of 300 outposts for that one belt alone.  YIKES!!!

 

Offline crucis

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #93 on: October 05, 2012, 04:41:09 PM »
Oh I would - with the pre-SM#2 rules, you had to individually track all of the IFN ships, and schedule it so that the required amount of H and Q arrive within the required time frame. With SM#2, it is a lot simpler and easier. This is one (of the few  ;D) cases where more rules equals simpler play (as opposed to more rules = more complexities).

But remember, Matt, you are combining two different things in your comparative analysis: the ISF colonization system and the use of Imperial FT's vs. the SM#2 colonization system and the CFN.  Of course, the former is more difficult ... because you're having to deal with the ISF colonization system.  It's not a straight apples to apples comparison.  ;)


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Either I missed your point (likely), or I think you missed mine. With aggressive colonisation, you can get ROI's of around 5 to 10%. However, if you are stuck in a limited number of systems, your ROI is only going to be in the order of 3% - which means that in the long term you will lose.

So, to avoid the "stay at home" player from giving up (as they know that they are going to lose), the ROI for the "stay at home" strategy had to improve.

I think that you did miss my point.  I was trying to say that whatever actions the stay-at-home players is doing with aggressive colonization, the exploring player may be doing as well, depending on the outcomes of his own explorations.  The exploring player is not denied the use of the stay-at-home's strategy, just because he can still explore.  Oh, he might not pursue it quite as aggressively, but he can do it if he chooses, though he might come back at a later time and start backfilling the less profitable rocks when the most profitable ones have been filled up.

Having said that, I'm starting to think that all this colonizing of moons and asteroids has become detrimental to the game.  When SFA can't go beyond 75 turns because all the colonization of such rocks (as well as other extremely numerous small items) is filling up the database, one can only imagine how horrifying it is for the p&p player.  So, as I wrote in other posts, I'm starting to think that the best way to alleviate the paperwork load is to get rid of colonization of moons and asteroid belts and replace it with a "Moons and Asteroids Bonus", similar to the current Asteroid Belt Bonus, only more substantial.  And it'd only exist when there was an in-system CFN in a system (perhaps at some reasonable minimum level).  This would cut down on moon/asteroid population records immensely.


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But the problem is, that at the moment the CFN can operate in contested systems. For your idea to work, you would need to outlaw the CFN working in contested systems.

Not necessarily.  Maybe only require that the CFN not be able to make deliveries to ships in open space or to lay mines.  Make it so that they're just moving from "port" to "port".  Though, yes, it might be necessary to think about the CFN operating in contested systems.



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I agree - Starfire is for moving ships - but I don't want to be bogged down tracking every little FT in the empire - that grows old quickly. I know it's subjective, (as you pointed out below), but my attention to detail ends before I get to that level of detail.

I guess that my attention to detail runs out when I have to pay attention to moving Holds and Quarters and not FT's.



 

Offline Starslayer_D

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #94 on: October 05, 2012, 04:53:26 PM »
Just a small side note, SFA was helped in reaching it's limits by the startup setting in the campaign (2 3200 PU world per player), and 8 player empires and 3 even larger NPR's and  alot of smaller NPR's ny turn 75. The players and 2 NPR's had incomes at 700 thousand, 1 NPR had run into 2 million income..
 

Offline crucis

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #95 on: October 05, 2012, 05:05:55 PM »
Just a small side note, SFA was helped in reaching it's limits by the startup setting in the campaign (2 3200 PU world per player), and 8 player empires and 3 even larger NPR's and  alot of smaller NPR's ny turn 75. The players and 2 NPR's had incomes at 700 thousand, 1 NPR had run into 2 million income..

I guess someone wanted to play a rather high powered campaign!  ;)

 

Offline Starslayer_D

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #96 on: October 05, 2012, 05:21:36 PM »
*nod* It was a continuity campaign, starting at HT 5 etc.  Just resetting the empires to one system, and reducing the chance for NPR's by a lot. And allowing more people to join in.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #97 on: October 05, 2012, 09:05:25 PM »
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Trade treaties.  BIG difference for us.  We give no income bonus.  You heard me. None.  What you get is a bonus to your economic research for the trade of ideas and goods.  The civies are doing the buying and selling.  The governments are getting taxes and tarriffs to pay for customs, etc.  No net income.  But a bonus to your economics.  And as you get higher in EL, stuff gets more expensive, maint goes up, etc.
You also need trade treaties to trade tech between the races.
Isn't part of the idea of trade income to provide a balance between friendly treaties and military conquest?
 

Offline crucis

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #98 on: October 05, 2012, 09:40:16 PM »
Isn't part of the idea of trade income to provide a balance between friendly treaties and military conquest?

Shoe, I'm not sure what you mean here.  Could you explain in more detail?


I have to say that there seems to be something wrong with trade treaties that don't provide any trade income.  Also, without the trade income, I can see where some players might take the attitude that if they aren't getting any $$$ out of the treaty, they might as well just conquer the NPR.
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #99 on: October 06, 2012, 03:50:35 AM »
I put up the idea of replacing the moon colonies with an income bonus a long time back when I was still on the starfire board.  Consider a 100 hex asteroid belt under SM2...that is 500*16 or the same as a 3200 population planet...and at max population that produces 2000 PTU of growth population every 10th turn once each asteroid is filled.  I've got systems with 3-4 astroid belts plus a lot of moons in the current games...they would be economic powerhouses in basic SM2 economics.

I am glad to see you are now understanding what I am saying about rock ball colonization.  It is death in a GSF campaign, as tracking all that PU (or EU if you wish) growth, not to mention just tracking them was making it impossible to do it easily with Excel spreadsheets.  They have a much stronger limitation on the number of lines on a single sheet, but just scrolling through them all was enough for me.  I stopped my GSF solo game from book keeping issues.  The lack of computer support prevented any use of the GSF rules in München as neither of the SMs wanted to track by hand (or spreadsheet).

My feeling is that a rock planet should be able to support a settlement sized population if desolate and a colony if extreme.

The use of EX as explorers is something I have never done, to my detriment in every game.  To me sending unarmed flys out to explore makes no sense whatsoever.  Those ships would surrender instantly if confronted by a single armed CT and they all have detailed information on the way back home.  But this is role playing and not min-maxing...and for min-maxers they are ideal.  I would limit the size of a ship that can mount an X to a CT (and I am not fond of CTs), and I like the stuff Steve did with the Xi and Xc as they make larger ships more useful for exploring.  After one battle with 250 CTs I basically told Starslayer "never again."  I believe I fell asleep while we were fighting that one out...but that was just too many ships for fun.  I would also change the combat system to make bigger ships far more effective combat wise (longer ranged and more powerful weapons)...making it more like wet navy combat where larger ships mount heavier guns that the lighter ships can't match.

The second München campaign was the continuation of an earlier campaign that ended at TL4 or TL5.  That was why it was so "high powered" we were just skipping the parts we did before.  But those two campaigns did a massive stress testing on the economic system.  I tended to have "the most organized navy" but one of the lower or lowest incomes...largely due to my not using small ships for exploration.  My exploration fleets in the current campaign were a huge early game expense and they explored slowly, so the trend continues.  I favor investment in moving people to moons over IU as people grow but IU don't.

As Procoyn suggests with his various house rules you need to have additional "costs" to limit size of the empire or slow its expansion otherwise bigger is just better.  I would go with some sort of fixed cost to have an emplaced population in a system (100 MCr or something like that, and some sort of increase depending on how far from an ICC it was).  This means that single outpost system might cost you money for a long time but it may be strategically worthwhile to do it.  Plus removing all the no-maintenance objects...I think everyone is in agreement over this one.  For a P&P campaign not to collapse due to bookkeeping you have to keep the colonization and fleetsizes down to something managable.  How big that is will be subjective.

On PP those were intended to control fleet sizes...and the effect of removing them was a massive expansion in fleet sizes.  It was a case of removing a bookkeeping issue (PPs) and producing a much worse bookkeeping issue (expanding fleet sizes).  Or again the road to hell was paved in more good intentions.

The minerack thing if implemented properly was a good idea of Steve...not giving it cargo capacity...makes it annoying.  But it hinders using the CFN to throw down huge road blocks.  The same with the supply rules, those forced me to colonize rock ball systems to build up a supply corridor before I could push my fleets out more a few times.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #100 on: October 06, 2012, 08:36:28 AM »
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Shoe, I'm not sure what you mean here.  Could you explain in more detail?
One reason for trade in 4x games is to provide somewhat of a balance between military conquest and peaceful exploration.  Moral factors rarely apply to players, who will look on things on a purely utilitarian basis... if it's way more valuable to your empire to conquer, you conquer.  Trade income provides a reason (other than military difficulty) to not conquer everything in sight.

 

Offline crucis

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #101 on: October 06, 2012, 09:54:25 AM »
One reason for trade in 4x games is to provide somewhat of a balance between military conquest and peaceful exploration.  Moral factors rarely apply to players, who will look on things on a purely utilitarian basis... if it's way more valuable to your empire to conquer, you conquer.  Trade income provides a reason (other than military difficulty) to not conquer everything in sight.




Ok, that's what I thought you meant, and I definitely agree. 
 

Offline crucis

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #102 on: October 06, 2012, 06:16:34 PM »
I put up the idea of replacing the moon colonies with an income bonus a long time back when I was still on the starfire board.  Consider a 100 hex asteroid belt under SM2...that is 500*16 or the same as a 3200 population planet...and at max population that produces 2000 PTU of growth population every 10th turn once each asteroid is filled.  I've got systems with 3-4 asteroid belts plus a lot of moons in the current games...they would be economic powerhouses in basic SM2 economics.

I am glad to see you are now understanding what I am saying about rock ball colonization.  It is death in a GSF campaign, as tracking all that PU (or EU if you wish) growth, not to mention just tracking them was making it impossible to do it easily with Excel spreadsheets.  They have a much stronger limitation on the number of lines on a single sheet, but just scrolling through them all was enough for me.  I stopped my GSF solo game from book keeping issues.  The lack of computer support prevented any use of the GSF rules in München as neither of the SMs wanted to track by hand (or spreadsheet).

The one legit alternative for asteroid belts is to handle them like in GSF/Ultra, as a single unified population, one population record per belt rather than dozens or hundreds.  But having said that, I also have a problem with the level of population that the game is assuming that AB's can handle in the first place.  Since I see these AB populations more as "mining camps" than full blown outposts, I have a very hard time seeing anything more than a single PTU (i.e. 50,000 people) per "outpost".  I tend to think that those enormously populated ABs are horrifying, particularly when one also allows them to grow and grow at SM#2's highly inflated rate. 

(And, BTW, I take no credit for thinking of (potentially) using a bonus to replace moon and asteroid belt colonization.)

Also, I realize that removing Desolate and Extreme Moon and Asteroid belt colonization might put a crimp in the "Stay at Home" strategy.  But having the vast numbers of  records associated with moon and Asteroid populations puts an even larger crimp in the entire game for everyone, though most particularly for p&p players.


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My feeling is that a rock planet should be able to support a settlement sized population if desolate and a colony if extreme.

Actually, this is similar to the standard set forth in ISF rule 15.06.02.  Of course, the ISF rule makes no differentiation between planets and moons, only speaking about "system bodies".  It was SM#2 that reduced the max size of Desolate and Extreme populations to Colony and Outpost.

Anyways, I'd already intended to let Type O2 (i.e. Type B) planets have a max pop of Settlement and Type O1 (i.e. Type H) planets have a max pop of Colony.






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The use of EX as explorers is something I have never done, to my detriment in every game.  To me sending unarmed flys out to explore makes no sense whatsoever.  Those ships would surrender instantly if confronted by a single armed CT and they all have detailed information on the way back home.  But this is role playing and not min-maxing...and for min-maxers they are ideal.  I would limit the size of a ship that can mount an X to a CT (and I am not fond of CTs), and I like the stuff Steve did with the Xi and Xc as they make larger ships more useful for exploring.

You won't get argument from me about the EX hull type.  I despise them.  And like you pointed out, they're a min-maxer's dream.  But I tend to approach the game more from a role-playing perspective.  Of course, given the current nature of 3E surveying tech systems and rules, it's entirely understandable to want to do surveying with as many of the smallest survey ships as possible.  The rules force that attitude onto players.  They basically give you no choice if you want to at least try for even a modicum of efficiency in surveying.

And I think that the root cause of the problem as it currently stands is the 1 Science Instruments system per ship rule.  So long as that remains the norm, the rules will drive the player to building the least expensive ship possible to wrap around the single "X".



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After one battle with 250 CTs I basically told Starslayer "never again."  I believe I fell asleep while we were fighting that one out...but that was just too many ships for fun.  I would also change the combat system to make bigger ships far more effective combat wise (longer ranged and more powerful weapons)...making it more like wet navy combat where larger ships mount heavier guns that the lighter ships can't match.


Yeah, you're describing the "problem" of swarm ships.  The problem is that again, the way the rules are currently structured, there are few biases that favor larger ships (more space for things like defensive systems and electronics) and some that favor smaller ships (higher speed, quick to build).  But at the most basic level, 1 point of damage is still 1 point of damage regardless of size.  

One minor way to tweak things in favor of the larger ships is to change the per hull space costs of warship hulls to a flat rate.  That is, X Mc per HS, regardless of warship type.  (Carriers would probably pay a higher rate, but that rate would remain the same across all carrier hull types.)  Another minor thing would be to enhance the value of useful electronic tech systems, but also increase their size so that they become more difficult for smaller ships to use.  Command datalink and Improved Multiplex would be examples of this, as they are too large to be mounted by swarm ships.  Of course, they also exist at TL's where swarm ships are less of a concern because the ultimate anti-swarm technology already exists ... fighters.




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On PP those were intended to control fleet sizes...and the effect of removing them was a massive expansion in fleet sizes.  It was a case of removing a bookkeeping issue (PPs) and producing a much worse bookkeeping issue (expanding fleet sizes).  Or again the road to hell was paved in more good intentions.

I never found tracking PP's to be a big deal.  I think that tracking crew grade is immensely more onerous, because it forces you to track each ship individually, something I'd never do.  Sort of like the difference between ISF/SM#2 tracking each asteroid belt OP individually vs Ultra tracking the entire asteroid belt as a single pooled population.  This is also a reason why larger fleet sizes was never as big an issue for me, because I never tracked crew grade and never tracked ships individually.  I hate the crew grade rule with a passion because I think that it only serves to create a paperwork nightmare and slows up combat when you have to modify die rolls for all those annoyingly non-average ships. I won't remove the rule because I know that some people like it.  But that won't stop me from loathing it with a burning passion.

Back to PP's.  I should note that to the best of my recollection, about the only time when PP's were a serious issue was when there was a need to build an invasion army.  PCF armies were (unsurprisingly) rather personnel intensive, and having to build such an invasion army could prevent one from manning newly built warships for a short time.  But, of course, that was the point of the PP rule, to put some constraint into the game.

« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 06:28:28 PM by crucis »
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #103 on: October 07, 2012, 07:08:37 AM »
Treating the belt as a single population is as good as solution as possible so long as you can actually emplace populations in them.  How many PU you allow per hex is something playtesting would allow adjusting for. 

The stay at home strategy is doomed to fail anyway so why do you want to bother trying?  The value of a single NPR trade treaty is so extreme that there is no compensation for it with "stay at home."  If you are bottled up you have lost.  The game is about exploration luck, just like pretty much any 4X game is.  Finding a good habitable earlier than another player gives you a boost that is hard to catch up with.  To make stay at home viable the chance of a war with an NPR would have to be sufficiently high to make the current exploration strategies foolish.  Otherwise expanding as fast as possible to find the best realestate to settle as soon as possible is the only "winning" strategy.  Kurt showed this one time in one of his games when an NPR with I think a 3-star system quickly determined that they could not even defend themselves against the Terran Empire.  In our game the RM's leader is pulling his non-existant hair out simply because the Theban economy beats his...and he has a tech advantage and heavily populated systems and has been spending 10000 MCr or so per month on economic expansion...but quantity has a quality of its own.

The problem with one X per ship was solved by the UTM with its Xi and Xc systems.  They allow you to use bigger ships to survey efficiently. 

I would also support a single cost per hull space.  But I would change construction/combat from the way it is now.

PPs existed to limit the fleet size, but since I never played with them I've no idea how well they worked but I'd suspect better than no limit but maintenace. 
 

Offline Starslayer_D

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Re: 3rd Edition Rules
« Reply #104 on: October 07, 2012, 07:53:27 AM »
The theban survey fleets are 2 CA with 3 Xc each, a probing FG with an Xc, and a supply DD with x and boatbays for a cutter swarm for planetary survey.

They alsomount a few weapons, and provide a pool of 18 trained CA's in a clinch :) The EX survey fleets didn't survve beyond the CA prototyping. Best use of EX is the J'rill  EAV, and even there 10 HS ES are better as they have defenses...