Author Topic: First impressions  (Read 5141 times)

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Offline alanwebber

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2011, 03:58:55 AM »
If I design a ship with Nuclear Torch engines, they consume 10 power per thrust per 1000 tons. So 1-1000 tons = 10 power per thrust, 1001-2000 tons = 20 power per thrust, etc.

Prototype comps require 4x power per thrust. So if I put in enough engines for 4 thrust, I need 160 power per 1000 tons to compensate.

Higher techs reduce that drastically. I'm in the midst of designing the ships of the TFN and they are built on about 100k RP (compared to the 5000 RP of the sample starter ships).

I'll post some of those designs later.


Sorry Erik

I still need to clarify.

One important point. Do you need 1 engine for 1 thrust i.e. if I want a thrust of 4 I need 4 engines? If not, how do I find the maximum thrust per engine type per ship type.

Also, i'm confused by your costings above. From table 71 and 72, a basic torch engine requires 6x10 power per thrust point per 1000 tons. An advanced anti matter pulse engine requires 2 (or am I misrreading this section)? The compensator section says that power consumption is 4 times thrust for prototype compensators and I read this as, for example, 16 power for thrust 4 (Dalord is reading this the same way).

I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying above. Without compensators, only thrust 1 is allowed or you're squashed flat.

If I have compensators, I can thrust at 2, 3 or 4 (engines allowing) with penalties (table 12) at a power cost of 8, 12 or 16 for prototype compensators. Thus all ships are limited to a maximum thrust of 4. Is this correct?

Two other questions about compensators:-
Page 11 talks about running them at maximum and breaking down. Does that mean at maximum thrust for the ship? Also, if the compensators are destroyed by damage the ship is limited to a speed of 4. I don't see why. Even if the ship is moving at speed 100, provided no thrust is applied, inertia isn't a problem. Wouldn't it be more consistent to only allow a thrust of 1 in this case as well?

For me it would be simpler if each level of compensator had a rating which was the maximum thrust it could allow for e.g. prototype 2, standard 4 etc and the penalties kicking in above this value i.e standard type allows thrust of 4, uses 8 power and penalties apply at thrusts 5, 6 and 7. It also covers the question of running at maximum. Just my 2 cents worth.

Sorry for keep harping on about this, but I feel I need to understand the concept thoroughly and then it will all fall into place.

Regards

Alan
Regards

Alan Webber
 

Offline dalord0

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2011, 04:49:47 AM »

Sorry Erik

I still need to clarify.

One important point. Do you need 1 engine for 1 thrust i.e. if I want a thrust of 4 I need 4 engines? If not, how do I find the maximum thrust per engine type per ship type.

Also, i'm confused by your costings above. From table 71 and 72, a basic torch engine requires 6x10 power per thrust point per 1000 tons. An advanced anti matter pulse engine requires 2 (or am I misrreading this section)? The compensator section says that power consumption is 4 times thrust for prototype compensators and I read this as, for example, 16 power for thrust 4 (Dalord is reading this the same way).

I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying above. Without compensators, only thrust 1 is allowed or you're squashed flat.

If I have compensators, I can thrust at 2, 3 or 4 (engines allowing) with penalties (table 12) at a power cost of 8, 12 or 16 for prototype compensators. Thus all ships are limited to a maximum thrust of 4. Is this correct?

Two other questions about compensators:-
Page 11 talks about running them at maximum and breaking down. Does that mean at maximum thrust for the ship? Also, if the compensators are destroyed by damage the ship is limited to a speed of 4. I don't see why. Even if the ship is moving at speed 100, provided no thrust is applied, inertia isn't a problem. Wouldn't it be more consistent to only allow a thrust of 1 in this case as well?

For me it would be simpler if each level of compensator had a rating which was the maximum thrust it could allow for e.g. prototype 2, standard 4 etc and the penalties kicking in above this value i.e standard type allows thrust of 4, uses 8 power and penalties apply at thrusts 5, 6 and 7. It also covers the question of running at maximum. Just my 2 cents worth.

Sorry for keep harping on about this, but I feel I need to understand the concept thoroughly and then it will all fall into place.

Regards

Alan


I think I can answer most of the questions

1. Engines are a hypothetical component in the term that they all take the same size and cost. But when you build the ship the engines are given a thrust rating or whatever, see in Eriks designs they say thrust X after the engines, meaning he has given enough power for the engines to give out X thrust, there is no hard cap on thrust for engines types like Aurora where 1 engine gives X power, in this model you give X power to the engines and they put out X thrust.

Example:
Basic nuclear torch engine uses 60 power per 1000 tons to give the ship 1 thrust. When you put the engine in you decide you want the ship to move at 3 thrust. Say it weighs 1000 tons, you now need to find 180 power so that the engines are powered, you don't ever need more than one engine, as to move faster you just need more power, which means you use more space up on reactors.

2. Yes you are correct, and yes the power requirements of a compensator are worked out like that. Without the compensator you can safely go 1 thrust or you can go up to 4 but you suffer very high chances of dying. But again the compensator is based off the amount of power you can give it, in that on a thrust 8 ship with prototype compensators you need 32 power to keep from getting squashed when travelling at 8 thrust. So the faster you go the more power the compensator needs the keep you alive.

Example:
On the same thrust 8 ship, if you had no compensators you would be limited to only using 1 of the 8 available thrust but with the compensators if you supply them with 32 power you can use all 8 thrust with no negative side effects.

The maximum speed question I think means that on the same ship as above if the ship travels at thrust 8, which is what the compensators are powered to handle , you suffer the failure chance.

And I think Erik uses the terms speed and thrust interchangeably which means that when he says speed for I think he means 4 overall thrust but ill have to let him explain that.

And finally, the system he uses now is actually rather simple to my eyes and allows alot greater flexibility in ship design, but I guess its a matter of perspective

Cheers,

Dalord
 

Offline alanwebber

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2011, 05:03:13 AM »
Dalord

Many thanks, that helps a lot. Must be time to start pushing a few counters around.

Alan
Regards

Alan Webber
 

Offline Erik Luken

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2011, 09:01:54 AM »
Dalord is correct :)

And yes, I do tend to use speed when I mean thrust.

As a trivia note, earlier versions had chemical rockets as the lowest form of engine. But since the ships could move in any direction with an application of thrust, it failed the giggle test for me. :)
 

Offline dalord0

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2011, 05:01:09 PM »
Thanks :)

One thing is that does this mean, if I want to, in the middle of a battle can I divert all power to the engines and IC to go faster?

Cheers
 

Offline Erik Luken

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2011, 05:17:42 PM »
Thanks :)

One thing is that does this mean, if I want to, in the middle of a battle can I divert all power to the engines and IC to go faster?

Cheers

Hmmm.. That bears thought. My first reaction would be to say no. Considering it though, the ships I've designed do not have all that much extra power in reserve to make that a viable tactic. The biggest power expenditure would be the thrust. I don't see low-tech ships being able to use this as the power generation being so tight.

I think that if it is allowed, the IC would be considered to be running at maximum for 20 turns (10% chance of failure/turn).


Added to the rules.

Overloading Compensators
Any extra power may be diverted to engines and inertial compensators to increase Thrust. Ships using this run the risk of compensator failure at a rate of 10% per turn. In addition, engines may burn out, with a chance of 10% of turn. Burnt out engines are considered disabled for damage control purposes.
 

Offline Erik Luken

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2011, 07:04:27 PM »
Based on a question from Alan...

Hardpoints are only calculated on non-cargo/hangar tonnage.
 

Offline Erik Luken

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2011, 01:23:56 PM »
Added to Chapter 17, regarding capital weapons.

Capital weapons have 2x the cost and power of their non-capital cousins, and power requirements of 1.5x.
 

Offline alanwebber

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2011, 07:44:05 AM »
Erik

Can you fire one broadside, roll the ship for 1 thrust (assuming you have any left) and then fire the other as a second volley?

Regards

Alan
Regards

Alan Webber
 

Offline Erik Luken

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2011, 12:55:03 PM »
Erik

Can you fire one broadside, roll the ship for 1 thrust (assuming you have any left) and then fire the other as a second volley?

Regards

Alan

Yes.
 

Offline dalord0

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2011, 03:26:06 AM »
With point defense, do you lump missiles together for lock on purposes? Or do you test for each missile?

Cheers,
Dalord
 

Offline Erik Luken

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2011, 12:18:35 PM »
With point defense, do you lump missiles together for lock on purposes? Or do you test for each missile?

Cheers,
Dalord

Individually. Additionally, each incoming missile to be tracked requires a sensor channel.
 

Offline dalord0

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2011, 04:36:13 PM »
Another thing, it says that point defense can react as soon as a missile is launched within interception range does that mean they can shoot out of turn?

But by far the biggest issue I have is that while shooting at each other is fun, it is followed by at least 3 to 5 turns of moving at lower tech levels, in my opinion the rate of fire for weapons is a bit slow.
 

Offline Erik Luken

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2011, 04:41:44 PM »
Another thing, it says that point defense can react as soon as a missile is launched within interception range does that mean they can shoot out of turn?

But by far the biggest issue I have is that while shooting at each other is fun, it is followed by at least 3 to 5 turns of moving at lower tech levels, in my opinion the rate of fire for weapons is a bit slow.

PD can only fire out of turn if missiles are launched within 8 hexes. Otherwise there'd be no chance for intercept.

As for the slow weapons-fire, I wanted to increase the rate of fire with tech, but I didn't want to have the same weapon firing multiple shots (3+) per turn. So the initial techs are going to be maneuvering for a decisive shot type affairs.
 

Offline dalord0

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Re: First impressions
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2011, 04:57:14 PM »
But the thing is a low tech laser is shooting once every 4 turns which means an alpha shield regenerates before it can shoot again albeit your not shooting only one at a time, but that makes rate of damage really low. It takes at least 11 shots from said laser to penetrate armor, and it just seems a bit slow. I understand your reasoning , and I can't offer a reasonable way around it, so I guess ill just have to suck it up and enjoy what is a very good gaming system.

Cheers,
Dalord
 

 

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