I would probably most happy if Steve incorporated his Aurora 2 ideas into Aurora C# at some point, that would be awesome... 

How do you tweak jp loop generation? That would be the easiest solution and I would love it.

Although Stormtrooper's point on AI ability (or lack there of) to handle multiple fronts is very true and something I had not thought of until he mentioned it. Having the ability to tweak loop generation for multiplayer games only would solve the problem I was having earlier though. Is that an option in new game creation?

Edit: Nuclearslurpee's point, my bad.

I keep thinking that building ginormous commercial engined battering rams might be a decent idea. Give them a ludicrous amount of armor and box launchers, basically no engine. Standard transit a pile of them in. Eat death for a while. Then blow everything straight to hell.

Ships are expensive, lack strategic mobility, and will take losses. But you don't need to research and build military jump drives, which are obscenely expensive. I wonder if the math works out?

I also wonder about parasite transit rules. If a carrier transits, do its fighters suffer jump shock?

One solution is to research better JP squadron size which you should do anyways as it improves the ratio of jump tonnage to weapons tonnage. With base squad size 3 you need one jump ship per two full combat ships, and jump ships are usually poorly armed at best. If you had say squad size 8 then the ratio is one and seven which gives you much better firepower.

That's why I consider coming back to squadron jumps at some point, but only once I'll be in a very late game, with related research maxed or at least almost maxed out.

Your argument about splitting your forces is good though, except if my fleets are slower and the enemy decides to fight rather than retreat I'm screwed anyways and if my fleets are faster or the enemy does retreat I don't need my forces splitted at all.

Another option would be to tweak the default JP network generation to have a higher concentration of loops.

Yes please.

Can't we already do that?

As a whole I completely agree. The only thing that annoys me is there being no counter to choke point defense. This is hardly a problem against NPRs, as their jump point defenses are mediocre at best, but having multiple player races displays the almost broken nature of jump points vs hyperdrives. Maybe a device that could create new jump points (for a ridiculous expense) would solve the problem?

The problem that I have (which isn't a big deal for most people, so don't take it the wrong way please) is that a technologically superior race (within reason) can send a fleet that is twice the size of a defending fleet that is technologically inferior (again within reason) and be defeated consistently. There is no counter to jump point defense except having several times the defending forces fleet size. Technological advantages help little (unless there is such a disparity that the superior force literally cannot be defeated, such as all end game tech fleet vs a conventional start fleet defending a jump point).

Unlike real life combat, with static jump points you cannot simply attack from a different direction, or "go around" or flank an enemy, you must plow through as there is no other tactic or strategy. This is especially apparent with dead end systems, as they can be defended almost indefinitely with a significantly smaller force of technologically inferior ships.

As others have mentioned, executing a squadron jump with appropriately teched-up jump drives is the way to beat a JP defense. I would say that while the current naval battle system is weighted entirely too much towards JP battles, they are a necessary mechanic in Aurora as they are really the major way a defender gains any tangible advantage over an attacker (the other possibility being to fight from orbit within STO range but this of course is a strategic defeat as the enemy will ransack your undefended colonies and lay siege).

There was an excellent suggestion made in the last big thread on this topic to tweak squadron jumps so that smaller ships gain a larger jump radius and larger ships emerge more tightly around a JP, which would preserve the importance of JPs as defensive choke points but allow for light raiding forces to be deployed which the defender must intercept with QRFs, adding a mobile component to warfare. I would favor this as it is quite simple and intuitive compared to many other ideas and adds a new dimension to warfare.

Another option would be to tweak the default JP network generation to have a higher concentration of loops. Currently it caries significantly but often the JP network is more like a tree than a network, which means there are often only 1-2 routes into enemy territory. A more interconnected galaxy with 3-6 routes to an enemy sector would mean the defender must spread out between several points while the attacker can concentrate, allowing a successful though costly JP assault to be somewhat less difficult to pull off. This would essentially be a simplification of the hyperdrive idea some have suggested in that it adds more routes of attack which can be exploited, but again without adding a complex new mechanic to the game.

Of course, the elephant in the room is that NPRs likely cannot deal with either of these things very well...game AIs in general struggle to handle multiple fronts and mobile/patrol warfare even in major releases from large studios (looking at you, Paradox...), so certainly if the AI in Aurora were to handle such things it would be a miracle on the part of Steve. The present system works for the AI which is an understated benefit, and my impression is that Steve intends the spoilers to do most of the work as far as changing things up from what would otherwise be an endless sequence of JP assaults.

I did consider using squadron jumps to give a little distance but that again works poorly against play controlled races, as I was playing both races and simply spread the defending ships around the jump point. It finally became feasible once I got the attacking race's squadron range up past 1m km but that still required 2:1 attacking ships (1-2 tech levels more advanced than the defending ships). To recreate, just split the fleet up (or use offsets) so that the smaller fleets are 60k-500k km apart or so (depending on tech levels of course).

For PvP campaigns I think it becomes necessary to establish house rules in any case, as the game is too exploitable by players otherwise. For example a house rule of JP defenses being only located at the JP rather than in a defensive net may be necessary. This may seem quite restrictive but can be necessary and actually can design space for more interesting strategies and ship designs purpose-built for this kind of JP defense. Others who regularly play PvP I'm sure can share many examples of house rules they impose to keep the game varied and interesting - no box launcher spam being a common one, I think.

Quote from: Zincat on February 05, 2021, 12:05:03 PM

I may be in the minority, but I do like the current model. It makes sense to me that a stronger and faster fleet will always kill the enemy, under the current model. And I don't have an interest in having even MORE micro than what we have right now.

In Aurora, if you are truly outmatched then jump point defense is currently your only choice, and I like it. Cold space is not a fair place at all... If you are inferior you die, and you can blame yourself for not being able to develop faster earlier on 

Regarding retreat mechanics.... personally I think they are cop outs. I can understand that a lot of people think it would make the game more interesting but...
Even if I were to concede that point, then you'd have the problem of making a mechanics that does NOT increase micro management and stays relevant and balanced. Not an easy thing.

As others said, the DW universe retreat mechanic is not good. And anyway, as soon as you get hyperdeny, EVERY fleet and base will have hyperdeny, so the possibility to retreat disappears forever. So anything component based would not work, as once you have a counter you'd mount the counter on EVERY ship you have, and so would your enemy.

As a whole I completely agree. The only thing that annoys me is there being no counter to choke point defense. This is hardly a problem against NPRs, as their jump point defenses are mediocre at best, but having multiple player races displays the almost broken nature of jump points vs hyperdrives. Maybe a device that could create new jump points (for a ridiculous expense) would solve the problem?

The problem that I have (which isn't a big deal for most people, so don't take it the wrong way please) is that a technologically superior race (within reason) can send a fleet that is twice the size of a defending fleet that is technologically inferior (again within reason) and be defeated consistently. There is no counter to jump point defense except having several times the defending forces fleet size. Technological advantages help little (unless there is such a disparity that the superior force literally cannot be defeated, such as all end game tech fleet vs a conventional start fleet defending a jump point).

Unlike real life combat, with static jump points you cannot simply attack from a different direction, or "go around" or flank an enemy, you must plow through as there is no other tactic or strategy. This is especially apparent with dead end systems, as they can be defended almost indefinitely with a significantly smaller force of technologically inferior ships.

This isn't necessarily true. The key is to use squadron jumps and jump drives with large jump ranges (at least 500k km). That puts the attacker well outside of decisive beam range, so the majority of attackers can avoid being destroyed in the 10-30 second before they recover from the jump. Of course, this does require being at least slightly faster than the defending ships.