How to retreat?

[Stormtrooper (OP)]

So far the Invaders weren't that scary... Except this time they brought over a dozen ships with dozens of 24 dmg lasers and a few 54 dmg... My missiles couldn't get through because the fleet was large enough to have many gauss cannons (plus those lasers being used for anti-missile stuff while not busy firing at my ships too) and laser firefight would've ended in a distaster so I tried to escape.

Except the only ships that made it out of the system were my laser assault ships, simply because they were faster than Invaders.

Is it how it has to be? Does it mean that unless the difference in speed is small enough at a distance short enough for it to mean anything, all of slower-than-enemy ships are meant to die no matter what if you lack the capability to win and decide to flee?

[Andrew]

Yes.

Welcome to the fate of Infantry through the ages, if you can't win and run away you get cut down by the cavalry. If the enemy has enough firepower that you cannot win a fight and enough speed you can't run away  then there is no way you are going to survive its that simple.

[Jorgen_CAB]

So far the Invaders weren't that scary... Except this time they brought over a dozen ships with dozens of 24 dmg lasers and a few 54 dmg... My missiles couldn't get through because the fleet was large enough to have many gauss cannons (plus those lasers being used for anti-missile stuff while not busy firing at my ships too) and laser firefight would've ended in a distaster so I tried to escape.

Except the only ships that made it out of the system were my laser assault ships, simply because they were faster than Invaders.

Is it how it has to be? Does it mean that unless the difference in speed is small enough at a distance short enough for it to mean anything, all of slower-than-enemy ships are meant to die no matter what if you lack the capability to win and decide to flee?

One issue at the moment is that AI probably don't suffer weapons failures so they can effectively fire at you indefinitely. Otherwise there could be a chance to escape through attrition to some extent... they are out of ammunition and would have to retreat too...  but I don't think the AI ever suffer from this.

I do think that Steve would like for MSP to effect AI at some point but it currently don't... only fuel is in issue for the AI.

The only real defence you have when fighting a technologically superior opponent is stealth, so you must use fighters or FAC to engage them and keep your carriers and support ships hidden from their sensors.

[Stormtrooper (OP)]

I wouldn't view it as that simple, because stuff like hiding, splitting forces to deceive enemy and reduce casualties, using terrain features (not applicable for spaceships but I very aplicable for infantry running away from cavalry).

I tried turning off shields and sensors to reduce detection range or splitting forces, but even if I could deceive enemy to change course it'd still run after ships I cared the most aka missile cruisers. Nothing worked.

[Stormtrooper (OP)]

So far the Invaders weren't that scary... Except this time they brought over a dozen ships with dozens of 24 dmg lasers and a few 54 dmg... My missiles couldn't get through because the fleet was large enough to have many gauss cannons (plus those lasers being used for anti-missile stuff while not busy firing at my ships too) and laser firefight would've ended in a distaster so I tried to escape.

Except the only ships that made it out of the system were my laser assault ships, simply because they were faster than Invaders.

Is it how it has to be? Does it mean that unless the difference in speed is small enough at a distance short enough for it to mean anything, all of slower-than-enemy ships are meant to die no matter what if you lack the capability to win and decide to flee?

One issue at the moment is that AI probably don't suffer weapons failures so they can effectively fire at you indefinitely. Otherwise there could be a chance to escape through attrition to some extent... they are out of ammunition and would have to retreat too...  but I don't think the AI ever suffer from this.

I do think that Steve would like for MSP to effect AI at some point but it currently don't... only fuel is in issue for the AI.

The only real defence you have when fighting a technologically superior opponent is stealth, so you must use fighters or FAC to engage them and keep your carriers and support ships hidden from their sensors.

I doubt 1% chance of failure with each shot for literally hundreds of lasers they had would make any difference. I don't see why he'd bother with it, it is really insignificant. I don't see how I'd have survived if for every 100 shots one wouldn't land.

[Jorgen_CAB]

I wouldn't view it as that simple, because stuff like hiding, splitting forces to deceive enemy and reduce casualties, using terrain features (not applicable for spaceships but I very aplicable for infantry running away from cavalry).

I tried turning off shields and sensors to reduce detection range or splitting forces, but even if I could deceive enemy to change course it'd still run after ships I cared the most aka missile cruisers. Nothing worked.

The only thing you can do is use carriers... they can stay far out of the enemy sensors and you can design your fighters to be faster than the enemy (at least most of the time). That or simply overcharge your engines to such a degree you can outrun them, those are the only real choices.

I would like a hyper-drive mechanics in the game so that we could potentially fleet from hostile situations... something that is impossible to track while engaged... you should only get to know the trajectory not the destination in the system. Could be a system even using a different type of fuel or something and only for military designs. Should take long enough to engage that you can't just instantly jump from a threat and large enough to not fit on really small ships.

[Jorgen_CAB]

So far the Invaders weren't that scary... Except this time they brought over a dozen ships with dozens of 24 dmg lasers and a few 54 dmg... My missiles couldn't get through because the fleet was large enough to have many gauss cannons (plus those lasers being used for anti-missile stuff while not busy firing at my ships too) and laser firefight would've ended in a distaster so I tried to escape.

Except the only ships that made it out of the system were my laser assault ships, simply because they were faster than Invaders.

Is it how it has to be? Does it mean that unless the difference in speed is small enough at a distance short enough for it to mean anything, all of slower-than-enemy ships are meant to die no matter what if you lack the capability to win and decide to flee?

One issue at the moment is that AI probably don't suffer weapons failures so they can effectively fire at you indefinitely. Otherwise there could be a chance to escape through attrition to some extent... they are out of ammunition and would have to retreat too...  but I don't think the AI ever suffer from this.

I do think that Steve would like for MSP to effect AI at some point but it currently don't... only fuel is in issue for the AI.

The only real defence you have when fighting a technologically superior opponent is stealth, so you must use fighters or FAC to engage them and keep your carriers and support ships hidden from their sensors.

I doubt 1% chance of failure with each shot for literally hundreds of lasers they had would make any difference. I don't see why he'd bother with it, it is really insignificant. I don't see how I'd have survived if for every 100 shots one wouldn't land.

Not in this specific case... I don't think it would be designed for extremely unmatched occasions... 

On the other hand... if you have enough beam weapons on your ships the AI would need to try and stay at a distance where their chances to hit are much lower and they do much less damage, then it would matter allot.

It have many other implication as AI ships would suffer maintenace failures in the same way player ships are, currently they don't.

[Gabrote42]

I wouldn't view it as that simple, because stuff like hiding, splitting forces to deceive enemy and reduce casualties, using terrain features (not applicable for spaceships but I very aplicable for infantry running away from cavalry).

I tried turning off shields and sensors to reduce detection range or splitting forces, but even if I could deceive enemy to change course it'd still run after ships I cared the most aka missile cruisers. Nothing worked.

The only thing you can do is use carriers... they can stay far out of the enemy sensors and you can design your fighters to be faster than the enemy (at least most of the time). That or simply overcharge your engines to such a degree you can outrun them, those are the only real choices.

I would like a hyper-drive mechanics in the game so that we could potentially fleet from hostile situations... something that is impossible to track while engaged... you should only get to know the trajectory not the destination in the system. Could be a system even using a different type of fuel or something and only for military designs. Should take long enough to engage that you can't just instantly jump from a threat and large enough to not fit on really small ships.

If you would like to know how Hyperdrives/Engine Overcharge worked last time and why it got removed, dig a little around in the forum

[Jorgen_CAB]

If you would like to know how Hyperdrives/Engine Overcharge worked last time and why it got removed, dig a little around in the forum

I know how that worked and I would like something completely different for a different reason, there have been many discussions here over the years for some form of mechanic to escape uneven encounters. It is really difficult to balance them with too much or too little to work well, I know this. I still would like some such mechanic.

It work pretty well in a game like say Distant Worlds, fights still happen. Sure it is a very different game but they also share allot of similarities.

[xenoscepter]

 - What about a Jump Range Mechanic? Maybe have it be a function of squadron jump distance? Perhaps a "Short Jump Drive" which is like a regular drive, but smaller and single ship only, where instead of Squadron Size and Squadron Jump Radius it's just "Assault Radius" and "Retreat Radius" with one being effectively the same as Squadron Jump Radius sans the squadron and the other being unique to the Short Jump Drive in that it can be used to jump through a Jump Point from farther away?

[TheTalkingMeowth]

If you would like to know how Hyperdrives/Engine Overcharge worked last time and why it got removed, dig a little around in the forum

I know how that worked and I would like something completely different for a different reason, there have been many discussions here over the years for some form of mechanic to escape uneven encounters. It is really difficult to balance them with too much or too little to work well, I know this. I still would like some such mechanic.

It work pretty well in a game like say Distant Worlds, fights still happen. Sure it is a very different game but they also share allot of similarities.

Personally I hate the "jump in and out" bullsmeg that plagues DW battles. If you want to be able to retreat, you should earn that opportunity by scouting ahead and not committing! And conversely, if your enemy successfully denies you that opportunity, they should be rewarded for it.

The issue with a speed based model in a terrain free environment is what Stormtrooper was getting at; if you are faster you can always get away and if you are slower you never can. If acceleration was a thing, things might be more interesting (see Honorverse battles and, in particular, the aftermath of First Hancock as well as the opening moves of Fourth? Grayson).

EDIT: for reference, 1st Hancock was in Short Victorious War and 4th Grayson was in Flag in Exile.

[Jorgen_CAB]

If you would like to know how Hyperdrives/Engine Overcharge worked last time and why it got removed, dig a little around in the forum

I know how that worked and I would like something completely different for a different reason, there have been many discussions here over the years for some form of mechanic to escape uneven encounters. It is really difficult to balance them with too much or too little to work well, I know this. I still would like some such mechanic.

It work pretty well in a game like say Distant Worlds, fights still happen. Sure it is a very different game but they also share allot of similarities.

Personally I hate the "jump in and out" bullsmeg that plagues DW battles. If you want to be able to retreat, you should earn that opportunity by scouting ahead and not committing! And conversely, if your enemy successfully denies you that opportunity, they should be rewarded for it.

The issue with a speed based model in a terrain free environment is what Stormtrooper was getting at; if you are faster you can always get away and if you are slower you never can. If acceleration was a thing, things might be more interesting (see Honorverse battles and, in particular, the aftermath of First Hancock as well as the opening moves of Fourth? Grayson).

EDIT: for reference, 1st Hancock was in Short Victorious War and 4th Grayson was in Flag in Exile.

I can respect that view although I don't agree with it. I think you could just ignore it and perhaps make it optional as I do think it could be a love hate thing.

I think it add depth... scouting is still as important but it reduce the immediate effect of technology and the rather analogue nature of speed in engagements.

[TheTalkingMeowth]

If you would like to know how Hyperdrives/Engine Overcharge worked last time and why it got removed, dig a little around in the forum

I know how that worked and I would like something completely different for a different reason, there have been many discussions here over the years for some form of mechanic to escape uneven encounters. It is really difficult to balance them with too much or too little to work well, I know this. I still would like some such mechanic.

It work pretty well in a game like say Distant Worlds, fights still happen. Sure it is a very different game but they also share allot of similarities.

Personally I hate the "jump in and out" bullsmeg that plagues DW battles. If you want to be able to retreat, you should earn that opportunity by scouting ahead and not committing! And conversely, if your enemy successfully denies you that opportunity, they should be rewarded for it.

The issue with a speed based model in a terrain free environment is what Stormtrooper was getting at; if you are faster you can always get away and if you are slower you never can. If acceleration was a thing, things might be more interesting (see Honorverse battles and, in particular, the aftermath of First Hancock as well as the opening moves of Fourth? Grayson).

EDIT: for reference, 1st Hancock was in Short Victorious War and 4th Grayson was in Flag in Exile.

I can respect that view although I don't agree with it. I think you could just ignore it and perhaps make it optional as I do think it could be a love hate thing.

I think it add depth... scouting is still as important but it reduce the immediate effect of technology and the rather analogue nature of speed in engagements.

That's the thing. The jump out capability in DW (and Stellaris, for that matter) is a cushion for when you screwed up. It REDUCES depth, because the effects of your accomplishments/enemy mistakes are mitigated.

[Jorgen_CAB]

- What about a Jump Range Mechanic? Maybe have it be a function of squadron jump distance? Perhaps a "Short Jump Drive" which is like a regular drive, but smaller and single ship only, where instead of Squadron Size and Squadron Jump Radius it's just "Assault Radius" and "Retreat Radius" with one being effectively the same as Squadron Jump Radius sans the squadron and the other being unique to the Short Jump Drive in that it can be used to jump through a Jump Point from farther away?

Well, the distance would need to be big enough to matter... so, long enough to escape enemy active scanning range most of the time.

I could also see it as a function of the jump drives so you jump a squadron that way. The distance should be quite far but you should be able to sett the distance (and vector) and then it will be somewhat random distance and vector based on that, each squadron in a fleet could potentially end up in different places. You would essentially open up a micro wormhole and instantly travel to a point perhaps a few hundred million to a billion or two km away, depending on technology. It might start a 50 million km at low tech and go up from there to a few billion at the highest tech. Time to initiate the jum could be a function of technilogy and size of the ships jumping. Larger ship and it takes longer time.

You should be effected by jump shock as normal as well.

The time to initiate a jump need to be at least like 20-60 minutes or so as to not be too abusive... if you are surprised you are not likely to escape before being attacked at least one time from a large missile strike or a long series of missiles strikes from rapid firing launchers. If you are caught in beam combat it will be a bad day... but in most situations you should be able to jump away from a threat if far enough away.

While the drives are spinning up your ships can't move at all.

There probably are many different issues with such an idea but it might have some merits. It is still expensive to cover all ships in a fleet with jump capable ships, so it is a pretty expensive overhead and you might not always use it either. You also would have to pay extra for this capability and it's range. So both expensive to research and build as well as taking extra space on the ship.

It should only be a function of military jump-drives and not commercials as they are not accurate enough. Covering a support force with such drives would thus be expensive. Every such jump could also be a high chance for a maintenance failure on the engine (also based on technology) which could make such jumps both expensive and limited in use.

On a different note this mechanic could also be used offensively by beam fleets to drop in very close to an enemy fleet by proper scouting and surprise them really good. Sure you are likely to end up millions of km from the enemy fleet, but still that can be quite scary.
So it could be an asset for every beam fleet out there...

[Jorgen_CAB]

That's the thing. The jump out capability in DW (and Stellaris, for that matter) is a cushion for when you screwed up. It REDUCES depth, because the effects of your accomplishments/enemy mistakes are mitigated.

We just have to agree to disagree... I think that is the easiest way.