Author Topic: Reasonable discussion about mods  (Read 2464 times)

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Offline Franss22 (OP)

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Reasonable discussion about mods
« on: April 16, 2020, 10:08:50 AM »
Firstly, i want to i want to say that i respect Steve's wishes on mods.  Until he says the contrary, i do not plan on modding the game, and, honest, i probably wont even if he says we can, because i am happy enough with the game as is (although ill be waiting for it to be a little more stable before i start a campaign)
 I do, however, do not agree with Steve's stance on mods, and i hope to, if not change his opinion on the matter, at least provide meaningful discussion on the matter.

I believe mods would be beneficial for the game.  That is my stance, and you're free (Steve included) to respectfully disagree.

Aurora is already a game that gives you quite some freedom to personalize and imagine your own space civilization, down to the naming scheme of military ranks within it.  I think modswould be a natural extension to this freedom of creative expression within the game.

Mods can also help people with disabilities or incompatible monitors, etc, to be able t actually enjoy the game, without their personal circumstances getting in the way.  I believe this is a good thing.

In essence, mods generally make a game's community healthier, and in the end, if i decide i want to replace the sun with thomas the tank engine, I'm only risking to ruin my own enjoyment of the game, not anyone else's.

Also, if Steve decides to simply allow mods, he will be able to save the time he would spend making a system that would try to stop (and probably fail, no offense to Steve's skill as a programmer, but the internet has always proven that it can break games made by companies with a lot more resources than Steve and manage to mod them) modding, and be able to spend that time bettering the actual game.  And i think we all agree that the alternative solution, withdrawing the game from the public, is not ideal.

We do, however, need to look at the other side of the matter.  Ill list the arguments i can think of for not including mods, and ill try to respond to these arguments.

-Steve will have to support modders (as in respond to their questions, etc): Or he can, not.  Allowing mods does not mean embracing them.  You don't need to add support for mods, go all factorio-like, make a mod API, etc.  Just allow them to exist, and it wont cost you any extra work.  If the game is hard to mod because of how it's made, tough luck, Steve wont help you.

-It'll introduce new bugs and they'll interfere with the debugging of the base game: This is a valid concern, and there is not really a definitive, perfect solution for it.  However, i believe Aurora's community is generally clever in this aspect.  Aurora is a pretty niche game, and i don't think there are many metaphorical 10-year-olds that wont understand that mods introduce bugs that have nothing to do with the base game.  Modders can (and should) add disclaimers that any bugs that happen on a modded game shouldn't be posted on the forums about the base game.  I do not know how customizable the forum is, but cant a checkbox that says "my game is not modded" be added so that you cant post on bug threads without ticking it? and also add a line about it on the thread itself, to warn about this.  To summarize, i think Aurora's players are clever enough to read/know not to post about mod bugs.

-It can introduce version preference.  (Like with minecraft, where modders generally choose a couple of updates, and make big mods mostly for those versions only).  Once again, tough luck.  I don't know much about the modding process, but i don't think updating mods for Aurora versions would be too hard, and factorio (which has a similar audience than Aurora), hasn't had this problem at all.  Most mods get updated to the new versions pretty quickly (Factorio has very good mod support though, so i don't know how it could translate to Aurora), Some of the mods I, (and some anecdotal comments I've seen in forums) most care about, being QoL mods, will probably become obsolete when/if Steve implements some of those changes himself.  And in the end, the only ones who lose out on the newest updates are the people who mod, so it shouldn't affect the base game. 

-Steve does not want his game messed with, it is not an open source project.  I can't argue with that,since it is not an argument, but an emotional stance.  An stance I respect, but not share.  If it is Steve's wishes about Steve's game, then they are the final word.  I hope I can change them, however.

Finally, i want to repeat that i don't think mods should be made if Steve doesn't want them (although they probably will be made anyway) and that I start this post as respectful, constructive criticism born from the love of this game and this community and that i hope we can converse this in a calm and respectful manner. 

Extra-finally, I do not think the way Steve reacted (while understandable) is appropriate, but well, its his game, and he can do with it what he royally wants.  And while we are not entitled to his game in any way, we can agree and disagree with the direction he takes it in.

Please do not start a fight in the replies, I mean this as a call to talk about it calmly.

 
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Offline Franss22 (OP)

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Re: Reasonable discussion about mods
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2020, 10:13:13 AM »
I forgot to add that i think mods are not a very good idea right now, as the game jsut came out and is way too unstable for it.  But in the relatively long term future, i think they would be a good idea. 
 

Offline Nori

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Re: Reasonable discussion about mods
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2020, 10:17:45 AM »
Your post is a moot point. People have been debating with Steve for years on mods and have used every argument out there. His answer has always been no.
It's his game and his wish is no changes outside of what he does. So lets all be a good community and respect that.
 
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Offline schmidtzy

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Re: Reasonable discussion about mods
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2020, 10:18:27 AM »
stop making threads about this guys, the decision is made.  If you want to make a mod for yourself no one can stop you but if your submitting bug reports or distributing those mods you are going against steve's wishes. 

The dude doesnt want to be a full time game dev on this or he would be monetizing obviously.  He doesn't even ask for donations like most people would in this situation.  Just respect his wishes and let it go.
 
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Offline 01010100

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Re: Reasonable discussion about mods
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2020, 10:24:08 AM »
Not taking a position on the wider issue, but I would like to make the technical point that C# applications are very easy to modify and obfuscation does not do much, if someone has the technical skills to mod a game like this (ie with no modding support/interface/etc provided in the game) then they also have the skills to deobfuscate the code. If the problem is chasing bug reports from modded games, then adding mod detection seems a better way to avoid that than adding code obfuscation - especially for a C# application where code obfuscation is already even more useless than say C++ or something.
 

Offline vyser1on

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Re: Reasonable discussion about mods
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2020, 10:27:38 AM »
It's not going to happen.  What is a debate going to do?
Steve says no.  It's his project.  That's it. 

And personally, after just getting ignored by "fans" who have the audacity to claim to "respect his work" and just post mods anyway, I wouldn't allow mods on principle alone.
 
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Offline prophetical

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Re: Reasonable discussion about mods
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2020, 10:28:02 AM »
Oh my God, enough with this.  What part of Steve saying no is confusing to you? Stop.
 
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Offline SpaceMarine

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Re: Reasonable discussion about mods
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2020, 10:30:26 AM »
I move for the immediate ban of all topics and discussions about modding aurora in anyway as well as topics about people trying to do so, as it has no place in the game as to steves wishes and this will only cause further drama, stop. Just stop.
 
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Offline Kristover

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Re: Reasonable discussion about mods
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2020, 10:40:38 AM »
I'll be kind about it but I would point out that in almost all cases, the people who seem to come onto the forum to talk about mods seem to be folks with very low post counts. Perhaps they have lurked for years and not ever posted - I joined several years ago and never really posted until c# started gaining steam about two years ago - but I suspect a lot of these folks are probably new(er) to this community.  Because of that I'll simply say that Steve's position on this has never wavered once in all the years.  No mods.  Ever.  It isn't worth a conversation.  Perhaps if you were paying for the product but none of us are - you are getting something free and you are getting it as is so no mods.

I'll add this point though.  Despite it being a hobby project - Steve has been great about soliciting and implementing feedback into his game for us.  Obviously he hasn't/won't put in some of the fringe ideas or ideas that will compromise the basic integrity of the game.  But I have made a few suggestions over the year that are now in the game almost exactly as I have asked for them.  If there is something you want to see in the game, simply ask!  The recent discussion about adding increased accessibility in the game for those with eye issues is a great idea and one that I think Steve would be happy to add when he has time but do it the right way - put a suggestion together and he may in fact get to it.  The guy released his product and has put out 6 patches in 5 days and we'll probably get another patch or three today and tomorrow so it isn't like he isn't responsive.  Respect his rules and respect the process for getting stuff in game.
 
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Offline 01010100

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Re: Reasonable discussion about mods
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2020, 10:45:32 AM »
The dude doesnt want to be a full time game dev on this

That's exactly my point though. There are 2 ways to avoid having to chase bug reports from modded games:

1) Stop people from releasing mods.

2) Detect if a bug report is from the base game or from a modded game.

Several ways have been tried for implementing 1:

- Telling people not to release mods. This failed, as shown by the reddit incident, and was likely to fail.

- Obfuscating the code. Similarly failed, as it was likely to do.

- Now people are suggesting banning any discussion of modding on this forum. Equally likely to fail, the internet is a lot bigger than this forum.

Option 2 hasn't even been tried yet, even though it is pretty simple, for example:

- Implement a checksum. Likely to succeed unless the modder is just evil and for no reason changes the checksum function itself just to screw with Steve.

As it stands right now people are releasing mods and as of yet there is still not even a way to tell whether any bug report is from one of the modded versions or not. Simply banning any mention of mods on the forum (what about technical suggestions for dealing with the problem from other C# developers, as I have done, is that banned too?) and going "If I can't see it here in my little bit of the internet then it doesn't exist anywhere else either" is, well, delusional.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Reasonable discussion about mods
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2020, 10:54:09 AM »
Stop making new mod threads when there are already active ones - Steve has put a blanket ban on mods so there shouldn't even be any discussion.

It's also cluttering up the forum with identical threads.
 

Offline Franss22 (OP)

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Re: Reasonable discussion about mods
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2020, 10:58:00 AM »
Quote from: Kristover link=topic=10789. msg123955#msg123955 date=1587051638


I'll add this point though.   Despite it being a hobby project - Steve has been great about soliciting and implementing feedback into his game for us.   Obviously he hasn't/won't put in some of the fringe ideas or ideas that will compromise the basic integrity of the game.   But I have made a few suggestions over the year that are now in the game almost exactly as I have asked for them.   If there is something you want to see in the game, simply ask!  The recent discussion about adding increased accessibility in the game for those with eye issues is a great idea and one that I think Steve would be happy to add when he has time but do it the right way - put a suggestion together and he may in fact get to it.   The guy released his product and has put out 6 patches in 5 days and we'll probably get another patch or three today and tomorrow so it isn't like he isn't responsive.   Respect his rules and respect the process for getting stuff in game.

Thanks, i wasnt completely aware of this, and that is a good argument.  However there are some changes that would be fun to play with, but wouldnt make much sense to add to the base game.  To take an example from another game, Factorio has a couple of mods that massively add to the complexity of the game, like bobs, angels or pyanodon.  And while they are fun to play, they are not the intended base experience of the game, and i like being able to install them, play a game with them, and then uninstall them and go back to the base game.  To bring it closer to Aurora, there could be a mod to change the game so that it behaves like newtonian Aurora (i know it already exists as a separate game but im using it as an example).  While it could be fun to play a campaign with it, i highly doubt it Steve would implement it in the base game, and i also wouldn't want it to change the previous experience of it.

Balance changes also have this problem.  Steve has a set idea of how the game should be balanced, but maybe i have a more enjoyable experience if i can change it for myself, without bothering anyone else. 

And yes, i know i could just do that for myself and not post it anywhere, but i do ot have the technical knowledge to do it, and id also still would be going against Steve's wishes, and that, as i already said but people seem to ignore in favor of saying "just do not talk about it, it aint gonna change", is something i dont want.
 

Offline mergele

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Re: Reasonable discussion about mods
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2020, 11:01:29 AM »
Maybe it is time for a Mod Discussion Megathread just to stop the issue from creating tons of individual small threads? Might also help with archiving all the old arguments that have been exchanged time and time again.
 

Offline Silverkeeper

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Re: Reasonable discussion about mods
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2020, 11:06:20 AM »
We should definitely respect steves wishes. He has chosen to share his hobby project with the world and I just hope it stays that way. Don´t bring mod discussions here because they are a waste of everyones time.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Reasonable discussion about mods
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2020, 11:11:28 AM »
Quote from: Kristover link=topic=10789. msg123955#msg123955 date=1587051638


I'll add this point though.   Despite it being a hobby project - Steve has been great about soliciting and implementing feedback into his game for us.   Obviously he hasn't/won't put in some of the fringe ideas or ideas that will compromise the basic integrity of the game.   But I have made a few suggestions over the year that are now in the game almost exactly as I have asked for them.   If there is something you want to see in the game, simply ask!  The recent discussion about adding increased accessibility in the game for those with eye issues is a great idea and one that I think Steve would be happy to add when he has time but do it the right way - put a suggestion together and he may in fact get to it.   The guy released his product and has put out 6 patches in 5 days and we'll probably get another patch or three today and tomorrow so it isn't like he isn't responsive.   Respect his rules and respect the process for getting stuff in game.

Thanks, i wasnt completely aware of this, and that is a good argument.  However there are some changes that would be fun to play with, but wouldnt make much sense to add to the base game.  To take an example from another game, Factorio has a couple of mods that massively add to the complexity of the game, like bobs, angels or pyanodon.  And while they are fun to play, they are not the intended base experience of the game, and i like being able to install them, play a game with them, and then uninstall them and go back to the base game.  To bring it closer to Aurora, there could be a mod to change the game so that it behaves like newtonian Aurora (i know it already exists as a separate game but im using it as an example).  While it could be fun to play a campaign with it, i highly doubt it Steve would implement it in the base game, and i also wouldn't want it to change the previous experience of it.

Balance changes also have this problem.  Steve has a set idea of how the game should be balanced, but maybe i have a more enjoyable experience if i can change it for myself, without bothering anyone else. 

And yes, i know i could just do that for myself and not post it anywhere, but i do ot have the technical knowledge to do it, and id also still would be going against Steve's wishes, and that, as i already said but people seem to ignore in favor of saying "just do not talk about it, it aint gonna change", is something i dont want.

With a commercial release like Factorio not only do you pay and as such are entitled to something, these games have entire teams - even if they are indie and are built around others messing with it and not as hobby projects.

Steve is one guy - Sure mods could really add to your personal enjoyment beyond Steve's capabilities - that is not up for dispute here. The cost of having mods even as small as QoL mods is that it makes it impossible to maintain aurora so it would come at the cost of Aurora development effectively stopping because Steve cannot chase after bugs coming from multiple different versions modified by multiple people. That is why Steve has been adamant on this - because more than wanting to make the game accessible for everyone he wants to work on it himself as he enjoys it and wants to make it stable without bugs.

Aurora isn't about what you or I wan't - its always been about Steve and his love for coding an intricate simulation. You want your eyes not to hurt? Ask steve and wait. Maybe he doesn't reply, tough break. You really want to modify your game? You can do that with a clear conscience - if you keep it to yourself and if you understand that any bugs you will have to fend for yourself. Can't mod - learn how to.

Even in the game itself Aurora has always been about doing things yourself.

Edit: Also we waited years for C# no problems and the next content update is scheduled in a couple months - what happened to the patience that was being exhibited before? No one tried to mod VB6. Hell given that VB6 is now deprecated you could probably mod that to your hearts content lol - just dont bother Steve.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 11:14:48 AM by Droll »