Author Topic: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.  (Read 10244 times)

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Online Bremen

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Re: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.
« Reply #90 on: April 25, 2020, 08:26:15 PM »
As I said, I don't mind fortifications being hard to take, what I mind is heavy artillery and such being useless against it.

That's less heavy artillery being bad against fortification than it is heavy artillery being bad against infantry. If you're up against a lot of fortified static units medium and heavy bombardment will work just fine.
 

Offline Ektor (OP)

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Re: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.
« Reply #91 on: April 25, 2020, 08:44:59 PM »
It won't. I've tested this. Also Heavy Artillery should be strong against infantry, if it isn't, then to me that's a problem.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.
« Reply #92 on: April 25, 2020, 11:36:31 PM »
It won't. I've tested this. Also Heavy Artillery should be strong against infantry, if it isn't, then to me that's a problem.

How is heavy artillery damage applied? Each bombardment component is 3 shots - but does that mean that it can only kill 3 infantry per fire? Maybe it should work like how missile damage is spread out in an "area"
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.
« Reply #93 on: April 26, 2020, 05:08:48 AM »
i mean heavy artillery obliterates infantry. it's just not efficient against them, which is as it should be.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.
« Reply #94 on: April 26, 2020, 05:54:53 AM »
Artillery in Aurora are not terribly good against regular infantry from a resource perspective, especially the heavier sort. I don't see this as some sort of problem... they are good against Static units though and vehicle of all types.

I don't see why a artillery need to be better against fortified units either as a unit being fortified in Aurora is a huge abstraction for having a defensive advantage. Artillery should not be better against fortified units than anything else as fortification in Aurora does not need to mean bunkers and stuff like that entirely.
 

Offline Migi

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Re: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.
« Reply #95 on: April 26, 2020, 06:25:42 AM »
Artillery in Aurora are not terribly good against regular infantry from a resource perspective, especially the heavier sort. I don't see this as some sort of problem... they are good against Static units though and vehicle of all types.
Static units have the same fortification stats as infantry (base 3, max 6), so they should be equally hard to hit, why is a bombardment weapon (or any low ROF weapon) good against them but not against infantry?
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.
« Reply #96 on: April 26, 2020, 06:53:24 AM »
It's not just fortification level, it's also armour. Static can use stronger armour than infantry, which then requires AP to penetrate and destroy reliably.
 

Offline Ektor (OP)

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Re: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.
« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2020, 12:06:30 PM »
How is heavy artillery damage applied? Each bombardment component is 3 shots - but does that mean that it can only kill 3 infantry per fire? Maybe it should work like how missile damage is spread out in an "area"

Realistically? Much less. Since accuracy hovers at around ~10%, you'd need on average 3 artillery to hit one fortified infantry. But yeah, one shot would be one kill.

Artillery in Aurora are not terribly good against regular infantry from a resource perspective, especially the heavier sort. I don't see this as some sort of problem... they are good against Static units though and vehicle of all types.

No they're not. As per my tests, they don't have a rate of fire significant enough to hit infantry unless heavily massed. Since static has the same fortification leven than infantry, it's also not very effective against it.

i mean heavy artillery obliterates infantry. it's just not efficient against them, which is as it should be.

You can test this for yourself, just set up a fully fortified formation of infantry and try to kill them with Heavy Artillery and you'll see they don't obliterate them at all.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 12:09:16 PM by Ektor »
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.
« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2020, 12:25:02 PM »
How is heavy artillery damage applied? Each bombardment component is 3 shots - but does that mean that it can only kill 3 infantry per fire? Maybe it should work like how missile damage is spread out in an "area"

Realistically? Much less. Since accuracy hovers at around ~10%, you'd need on average 3 artillery to hit one fortified infantry. But yeah, one shot would be one kill.

Artillery in Aurora are not terribly good against regular infantry from a resource perspective, especially the heavier sort. I don't see this as some sort of problem... they are good against Static units though and vehicle of all types.

No they're not. As per my tests, they don't have a rate of fire significant enough to hit infantry unless heavily massed. Since static has the same fortification leven than infantry, it's also not very effective against it.

i mean heavy artillery obliterates infantry. it's just not efficient against them, which is as it should be.

You can test this for yourself, just set up a fully fortified formation of infantry and try to kill them with Heavy Artillery and you'll see they don't obliterate them at all.

I think artillery is an easy fix - just make it work like missiles where damage is "spread", since the whole point of artillery is the spread of shrapnel over an area. This would make it so that each artillery component based on initial damage will get many more shots overall - but each shot will still be subject to hit chance and the reduced penetration of the shrapnel will make sure that armor isnt as affected by arty as infantry is.
 

Offline Ektor (OP)

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Re: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.
« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2020, 12:26:11 PM »
I would like that.
 

Online Bremen

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Re: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.
« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2020, 12:37:18 PM »
At this point the discussion is about buffing bombardment weapons (which don't need the buff, IMHO), nothing to do with fortification.

The Aurora system is that one shot can only kill one unit. This means that a heavy anti-vehicle weapon and a personal weapon will both kill the same number of unarmored infantry each hit - 1. Artillery works the same way, but gets 3 shots, so a heavy bombardment weapon is three times as effective against infantry as a personal weapon, but half as effective as a crew served anti-personnel weapon (which gets 6 shots). Meanwhile static units cost more but have 3 hp, so a hit from a personal weapon or CAP has only an 11% chance to kill an unarmored static, but a heavy bombardment will kill it every time, so heavy bombardment is much more effective against statics than personal weapons or CAP.

The various weapon sizes and costs are balanced around this mechanic, so I assume the justification for saying heavy bombardment should have area effect against infantry is some sort of realism concern, and I'm firmly of the opinion that gameplay trumps realism.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 12:38:56 PM by Bremen »
 
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Offline Migi

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Re: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.
« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2020, 01:52:14 PM »
I think the lesson from this thread is to use large numbers of CAP teams in ground invasions rather than massing large numbers of infantry, and you probably want medium/heavy autocannons or bombardment for heavy targets because of hit rates.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.
« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2020, 01:57:35 PM »
At this point the discussion is about buffing bombardment weapons (which don't need the buff, IMHO), nothing to do with fortification.

The Aurora system is that one shot can only kill one unit. This means that a heavy anti-vehicle weapon and a personal weapon will both kill the same number of unarmored infantry each hit - 1. Artillery works the same way, but gets 3 shots, so a heavy bombardment weapon is three times as effective against infantry as a personal weapon, but half as effective as a crew served anti-personnel weapon (which gets 6 shots). Meanwhile static units cost more but have 3 hp, so a hit from a personal weapon or CAP has only an 11% chance to kill an unarmored static, but a heavy bombardment will kill it every time, so heavy bombardment is much more effective against statics than personal weapons or CAP.

The various weapon sizes and costs are balanced around this mechanic, so I assume the justification for saying heavy bombardment should have area effect against infantry is some sort of realism concern, and I'm firmly of the opinion that gameplay trumps realism.

TBF the area of effect solution probably wouldn't affect the performance of bombardment that much in practice anyways - the AP decay on the "shrapnel" would mean that armoured statics wouldn't really be affected by the additional hits and the hit chance reduction of fortification would make it so that fortified infantry are also quite resistant to artillery shrapnel as the hit chance of every "free" shot would be really low.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Rebalance Fortification - Add some sort of counter to it.
« Reply #103 on: April 26, 2020, 03:17:05 PM »
How is heavy artillery damage applied? Each bombardment component is 3 shots - but does that mean that it can only kill 3 infantry per fire? Maybe it should work like how missile damage is spread out in an "area"

Realistically? Much less. Since accuracy hovers at around ~10%, you'd need on average 3 artillery to hit one fortified infantry. But yeah, one shot would be one kill.

Artillery in Aurora are not terribly good against regular infantry from a resource perspective, especially the heavier sort. I don't see this as some sort of problem... they are good against Static units though and vehicle of all types.

No they're not. As per my tests, they don't have a rate of fire significant enough to hit infantry unless heavily massed. Since static has the same fortification leven than infantry, it's also not very effective against it.

i mean heavy artillery obliterates infantry. it's just not efficient against them, which is as it should be.

You can test this for yourself, just set up a fully fortified formation of infantry and try to kill them with Heavy Artillery and you'll see they don't obliterate them at all.

I think artillery is an easy fix - just make it work like missiles where damage is "spread", since the whole point of artillery is the spread of shrapnel over an area. This would make it so that each artillery component based on initial damage will get many more shots overall - but each shot will still be subject to hit chance and the reduced penetration of the shrapnel will make sure that armor isnt as affected by arty as infantry is.

In effect artillery already do "spread" as it has 3 shots and not one... which is kind of representing the wide are of effect of artillery and other bombardment weapons.

The game are abstracting combat and I feel that allot of the wants and interpretation have more to do with a tactical use of these weapons systems which the game really does not try to simulate. It simulate a military conflict on a planetary scale.

The different weapons strength and weaknesses are to simulate the rough usage of those weapon system.

In real life for example the main gun of a tanks are quite effective against infantry and have a big area of impact while in the game it only fire one shot and can only kill a maximum of ONE soldier per combat phase... this is an abstraction as the main use of that weapon is against armoured targets.

Other weapons such as CAP are mostly representing heavy grenade launchers or heavy machine gun type weapons and in real life these weapons are quite lethal to infantry but they often are used more as suppressing weapons rather than to kill stuff, just like most weapons are. In the real world weapons are used in tandem with each other to be more effective as a whole than they are individually, the game really don't consider such tactical usage of weapons but only look from a strategic perspective.

This is why weapons are a bit stereotypical in what they do because of game balance. If you had one weapons that was good against everything then everyone would take just that weapon.

The only thing that fortification does is to help troops to avoid being hit... this can be through electronic interference, camouflage, bunkers, force fields, perfect knowledge of the terrain, pre constructed mine fields, underground tunnels to hide troop movement or a combination of them all more likely. Anything to give the defending army a large advantage over the enemy.

This is why I don't like that you can simply destroy the fortification outright... I also don't believe it is necessary as it is not that hard to invade as it is. The initiative will almost always be in favour of the the invading as they control the battlefield and if they engage or not, they can bring more forces if necessary and most likely they defeated the space forces to get there. If it is not decently hard and difficult to invade then using defensive forces simply is pointless.

In my opinion it is WAY to early to judge if it is too easy or too hard to invade planets... we have to give it time and see how it goes.
 
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