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Offline the obelisk

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Early fleet
« on: June 16, 2018, 12:27:23 PM »
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Ikazuchi class Frigate    8 000 tons     231 Crew     1031.4 BP      TCS 160  TH 360  EM 0
2250 km/s     Armour 4-35     Shields 0-0     Sensors 12/12/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 36
Maint Life 1.51 Years     MSP 161    AFR 256%    IFR 3.6%    1YR 80    5YR 1198    Max Repair 60 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 8 months    Flight Crew Berths 4   
Hangar Deck Capacity 500 tons     

Mishima Engineering 120 EP Nuclear Pulse Engine (3)    Power 120    Fuel Use 68%    Signature 120    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 750 000 Litres    Range 24.8 billion km   (127 days at full power)

19cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser (1)    Range 192 000km     TS: 2250 km/s     Power 9-3     RM 3    ROF 15        9 9 9 6 5 4 3 3 3 2
15cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser (3)    Range 180 000km     TS: 2250 km/s     Power 6-3     RM 3    ROF 10        6 6 6 4 3 3 2 2 2 1
10cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser (6)    Range 90 000km     TS: 2250 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 3    ROF 5        3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Hamada Warning & Control Type 2 FCS (3)    Max Range: 192 000 km   TS: 2500 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 (10)     Total Power Output 31.5    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Hamada Warning & Control Type-1 Search Sensor (1)     GPS 4800     Range 22.8m km    Resolution 160
Hamada Warning & Control Thermal Sensor TH2-12 (1)     Sensitivity 12     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  12m km
Hamada Warning & Control EM Detection Sensor EM2-12 (1)     Sensitivity 12     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  12m km

Strike Group
1x Ki-1 Yari Fighter   Speed: 4192 km/s    Size: 9.54

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Code: [Select]
Shimushu class Escort    7 000 tons     158 Crew     929.4 BP      TCS 140  TH 360  EM 0
2571 km/s     Armour 4-32     Shields 0-0     Sensors 12/12/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 19.37
Maint Life 1.3 Years     MSP 166    AFR 196%    IFR 2.7%    1YR 104    5YR 1555    Max Repair 115 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 8 months    Flight Crew Berths 27   
Hangar Deck Capacity 500 tons     

Mishima Engineering 120 EP Nuclear Pulse Engine (3)    Power 120    Fuel Use 68%    Signature 120    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 800 000 Litres    Range 30.2 billion km   (136 days at full power)

Quad 10cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (1x4)    Range 90 000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 12-12     RM 3    ROF 5        3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Hamada Warning and Control Type 6 FCS (1)    Max Range: 192 000 km   TS: 8000 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 (4)     Total Power Output 12.6    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Hamada Warning and Control Type 7 Missile Detection System (1)     GPS 72     Range 4.3m km    MCR 470k km    Resolution 1
Hamada Warning & Control Thermal Sensor TH2-12 (1)     Sensitivity 12     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  12m km
Hamada Warning & Control EM Detection Sensor EM2-12 (1)     Sensitivity 12     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  12m km

Strike Group
1x Ki-2 Tonbo Scout Fighter   Speed: 4255 km/s    Size: 9.4

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Code: [Select]
Ki-1 Yari class Fighter    477 tons     4 Crew     82 BP      TCS 9.54  TH 30  EM 0
4192 km/s     Armour 1-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 2
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 95%    IFR 1.3%    1YR 15    5YR 225    Max Repair 29 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 0   

Mishima Engineering 40 EP Fighter Engine (1)    Power 40    Fuel Use 134.16%    Signature 30    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 5 000 Litres    Range 1.4 billion km   (3 days at full power)

10cm C0.75 Near Ultraviolet Laser (1)    Range 90 000km     TS: 4192 km/s     Power 3-0.75     RM 3    ROF 20        3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Hamada Warning & Control Type 3 FCS (1)    Max Range: 192 000 km   TS: 8000 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 (1)     Total Power Output 0.9    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Hamada Warning & Control Type 4 Search Sensor (1)     GPS 60     Range 1.1m km    Resolution 10

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes
Code: [Select]
Ki-2 Tonbo class Scout Fighter    470 tons     7 Crew     87.6 BP      TCS 9.4  TH 30  EM 0
4255 km/s     Armour 1-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0
Maint Life 1.9 Years     MSP 12    AFR 17%    IFR 0.2%    1YR 4    5YR 64    Max Repair 48 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.5 months    Spare Berths 5   

Mishima Engineering 40 EP Fighter Engine (1)    Power 40    Fuel Use 134.16%    Signature 30    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 20 000 Litres    Range 5.7 billion km   (15 days at full power)

Hamada Warning & Control Type 5 Search Sensor (1)     GPS 7680     Range 36.4m km    Resolution 160

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes
A battle group would have both frigates and escorts, with the scout-fighters taking turns following along to provide sensors.  In combat, the fighters would target enemy scouts (the only other faction using fighters isn't seen as a likely enemy, and most factions will be using scout fighters or small-ish scout ships for sensors, though the most likely enemy faction will be using a large command ship for sensors).

What do you guys think?  Does this make sense?  I guess it's a bit more nebulous since it's not designed with NPR's in mind, but I'm hoping I can still get some decent feedback on these.
 

Offline Cavgunner

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Re: Early fleet
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2018, 08:07:41 PM »
A credible effort, but I don't really think a beam-oriented fleet will work well at this tech level.  Nearly every opponent you will conceivably face will be able to reach much higher speeds than you, making those lasers useless weight most of the time.  And the ships here are really, really slow.  Correspondingly slow targeting speeds further compound the problem.  In short, Precursors and Swarm drones will obliterate them.

If all you need is an initial presence to safeguard your home system, these are probably ok.  However I would personally prefer missile-based ships at this tech level.  I'm thinking slow missile-throwers stuffed with the most powerful and long-ranged missiles you can manage.  Even then I wouldn't expect too much, and frankly I'd forget about fighters entirely until you research Magnetic Confinement drives at least.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 09:25:44 PM by Cavgunner »
 

Offline Iranon

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Re: Early fleet
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2018, 09:51:25 AM »
Bit late anyway but...

I don't have an issue with an early beam fleet, in fact I think it's the way to go. It just requires a high focus on defence; I'd suggest some 10cm railguns to deal with enemy missiles. I'd also go for cost-efficiency over capability; sufficient speed to dictate tactical parameters just isn't in the cards.
Range is essential to avoid being kited in a beam fight, I'd probably focus on 15cm lasers (which come close to maxing out the FC range for balanced tech). Perhaps a few short-range missiles, either with 1 fire control per tube or to be launched within 5s of travel distance, as an equaliser before the beam fight starts.
 

Offline the obelisk

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Re: Early fleet
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2018, 02:09:51 PM »
A credible effort, but I don't really think a beam-oriented fleet will work well at this tech level.  Nearly every opponent you will conceivably face will be able to reach much higher speeds than you, making those lasers useless weight most of the time.  And the ships here are really, really slow.  Correspondingly slow targeting speeds further compound the problem.  In short, Precursors and Swarm drones will obliterate them.

If all you need is an initial presence to safeguard your home system, these are probably ok.  However I would personally prefer missile-based ships at this tech level.  I'm thinking slow missile-throwers stuffed with the most powerful and long-ranged missiles you can manage.  Even then I wouldn't expect too much, and frankly I'd forget about fighters entirely until you research Magnetic Confinement drives at least.
I should have been more clear in my original post, but this is for a game with multiple player controlled factions, like a lot of the stuff in the fiction board.  They aren't really designed with Precursors or Swarms in mind.  In fact, I think Swarms might be turned off.  Regarding speed, what speed should I be trying to reach, given that these ships are using Nuclear Pulse engines?

These are definitely only supposed to be the earliest kinds of ships used.  The main thing I was looking for was to tell whether or not this concept was way off point for a beam-focused fleet.


Bit late anyway but...

I don't have an issue with an early beam fleet, in fact I think it's the way to go. It just requires a high focus on defence; I'd suggest some 10cm railguns to deal with enemy missiles. I'd also go for cost-efficiency over capability; sufficient speed to dictate tactical parameters just isn't in the cards.
Range is essential to avoid being kited in a beam fight, I'd probably focus on 15cm lasers (which come close to maxing out the FC range for balanced tech). Perhaps a few short-range missiles, either with 1 fire control per tube or to be launched within 5s of travel distance, as an equaliser before the beam fight starts.

I've got plans for another faction to use railguns for missile defense, but on that subject, it seems to me like, unless your railgun tech is significantly better than your laser tech, lasers are the better option for missile defense, since they can be turreted.  Am I wrong in that analysis?

Regarding range, this faction will probably have the greatest range in regards to beam weapons, at least at the start, out of the five factions that will be player controlled.  Another faction will be focused on kinetics, another on missiles, and the final two will be using a mix of missiles and beam weaponry, so when it comes to them, I don't think this faction has too much to worry about when it comes to being kited.  As far as missiles are concerned, this faction doesn't have any missile research completed, so I'm not sure how viable that would be.
 

Offline JacenHan

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Re: Early fleet
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2018, 03:45:50 PM »
Because railguns fire 4 projectiles, they are equivalent to lasers for PD (which have a 4x bonus to-hit from turrets). However, since railguns do not require the additional turret mass or high-speed fire controls, they end up being better than lasers as PD on a mass for mass basis. That said, lasers are much better offensive weapons, so they are superior if you only want to focus on a single type of weapon for both offense and defense.

The speed of your ships is pretty good for nuclear pulse engines. I typically consider the "standard" speed for an engine the speed of ship with 25% of its mass devoted to an unboosted engine (corresponding to the FC tracking speed techs), which for nuclear pulse engines is 2000 km/s. Beam ships need to be faster to catch their enemy, so I would say anywhere from 2000 km/s to 3000 km/s, which you've already achieved. Like Cavgunner stated, fighters are difficult to do well at this tech level, since you don't have the engine boost techs to make them more than about twice your mainline ships' speed, which limits their usefulness as a combat vessel. I do like the idea of having a recon fighter, though, both for roleplaying purposes as well as the general utility it could provide. I would say drop the laser and up its fuel and deployment time, since it seems unlikely you will be able to detect or engage any enemy fighters before they can track your capital ships. I really like this fleet, though, and I would be interested in seeing some of their opponent's ships.

One last suggestion: if your factions don't have jump theory researched yet, you could probably cut down on the fuel reserves, maybe to about 10-15b km, which is plenty of range for any battle within the orbit of Pluto.
 

Offline Cavgunner

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Re: Early fleet
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2018, 03:48:53 PM »
Quote
I should have been more clear in my original post, but this is for a game with multiple player controlled factions, like a lot of the stuff in the fiction board. 

So you are controlling each faction yourself?  Whatever floats your boat I guess.

Quote
Regarding speed, what speed should I be trying to reach, given that these ships are using Nuclear Pulse engines?

Honestly?  None.  In a standard game I don't even think about building fighting ships until I have Ion engines at least.  Nuclear pulse and nuclear thermal ships are just targets.
 

Offline the obelisk

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Re: Early fleet
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2018, 04:13:29 PM »
The speed of your ships is pretty good for nuclear pulse engines. I typically consider the "standard" speed for an engine the speed of ship with 25% of its mass devoted to an unboosted engine (corresponding to the FC tracking speed techs), which for nuclear pulse engines is 2000 km/s. Beam ships need to be faster to catch their enemy, so I would say anywhere from 2000 km/s to 3000 km/s, which you've already achieved. Like Cavgunner stated, fighters are difficult to do well at this tech level, since you don't have the engine boost techs to make them more than about twice your mainline ships' speed, which limits their usefulness as a combat vessel. I do like the idea of having a recon fighter, though, both for roleplaying purposes as well as the general utility it could provide. I would say drop the laser and up its fuel and deployment time, since it seems unlikely you will be able to detect or engage any enemy fighters before they can track your capital ships. I really like this fleet, though, and I would be interested in seeing some of their opponent's ships.

One last suggestion: if your factions don't have jump theory researched yet, you could probably cut down on the fuel reserves, maybe to about 10-15b km, which is plenty of range for any battle within the orbit of Pluto.

I have definitely also gotten the feeling of 2000km/s being a sort of "normal" speed at this tech level, and I'm glad to see that coming from someone other than myself.  The use of fighters at this tech level is largely a roleplay thing, but it's also the result of me wanting to make the factions feel more different.  I've tried doing a multi-faction start before, and the way I'd planned out the factions, they essentially each had a single gimmick, and I felt that was kind of unsatisfying, so this time around I've tried to have the differences be more complex than "laser faction, mixed weaponry faction, FAC faction" etc.  The main purpose of the fighters in an early conflict between the starting factions would be to target small recon ships, which will be employed by two other factions, with another using missile based fighters, and the last using larger command ships.
 

Offline Iranon

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Re: Early fleet
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2018, 03:18:41 PM »
10cm railguns are vastly more efficient as point defence than lasers. For purely defensive weapons, you can get away with velocity-1 and against ASMs you can usually get away with capacitor-1, making your weapons extremely cheap. Very cheap lasers don't benefit you as much if you need (relatively) expensive turret gear and (very) expensive 4x-tracking fire controls.
Alternatively, on faster ships the lack of turrets is less of a drawback.

Which brings me to the next thing... Aurora has a way of subtly discouraging "standard" speeds and propulsion setups.
The "standard" setup of 25% engine tonnage @1.0 power multiplier is inefficient in two ways:
First, engine cost scaling - linear above 1.0 power, quadratic below. The "standard" setup is actually the most expensive option to move a given mission tonnage at standard speed. I don't build 1.0-cost engines; in some configurations they are justifiable but they never seem "correct".
Second, with balanced research "standard" speed equals default beam fire control speed rating. If your ship is faster than that, the additional speed makes your non-turreted weapons track faster. If your ship is slower, you still track at your default speed.
 

Offline Michael Sandy

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Re: Early fleet
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2018, 12:03:17 PM »
The tech required for point defense for railguns is dirt cheap.  For some reason the base range 10k didn't work for me, but the 20k did.  Both laser PD and railgun PD will need capacitor tech, at least if you want your PD to be able to deal with AMM fire.  But lasers will also need turret speed.

But the tech is cheap enough you could have both railguns for PD and lasers for Pew Pew.

Gauss PD requires a bit more substantive investment.  A consideration early on for point defense is whether your fire control is up for it.  No point in creating a great turret that can hit 20k missiles if your fire control maxes out at 12k.

One of the things I like about fighter PD is that with the cheaper and smaller fire controls, you are already set up for dealing with small volley sizes.
 

 

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