Author Topic: STO Operations  (Read 3627 times)

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Offline Steve Walmsley

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STO Operations
« on: October 13, 2018, 05:49:54 AM »
I've reached the point of coding how Surface-to-Orbit weapons function in naval combat.

As part of that process, for each STO ground unit design I have added a small resolution - 1 active sensor with a minimum size of 5 tons (0.1 HS) and a maximum size equal to that required to exceed the range of the mounted weapon. In practical terms, because of the new active sensor rules, this is going to be very small in comparison to the size of the STO unit and add minimal cost. This functions like any other active sensor, detecting ships and being detected by EM sensors. The active sensors for each formation element can be turned on and off using a button on the Ground Forces window.

This doesn't mean that STO units can be pinpointed by their sensor emissions as the sensor is assumed to be remote from the weapon. I also considered having separate sensor vehicles but decided it was easier to keep everything together, like a CIWS.

Which brings us to how the STO weapons are targeted. Originally, I planned to add the STO weapons to the naval organisation window, or perhaps a new tab on the ground forces window. However, I ran into some questions. For example, should ground units follow the same restrictions as naval units when changing targets mid-combat? Should training mitigate that? Should all units in the same formation element target the same ship, or should I allow individual weapon targeting? Another concern was the sequence of play, where combat follows detection. Given that hostile ships will be trying to get in and out of range as quickly as possible, giving them a potential 'free round' while the player allocates targets post-detection may not be a good idea - although I could ensure ground-based sensors are more powerful to mitigate that (with increased cost and easier EM detection).

As a result of all that, I reached the conclusion that STO weapons should probably be treated like point defence. The player provides some rules for each formation element and the STO weapons (if active) target anything in range according to those rules. Different elements on the same planet could have different rules. On this basis, they would be able to engage in the same increment as the target was detected (like point defence). Rules could have multiple elements and cover areas such as:
  • Whether to engage at all
  • Whether to concentrate fire, target individually or target with groups of weapons (in pairs, triples, etc.)
  • Whether targeting should be random or according to a rule
  • Non-random target rules could be based on closest, slowest, largest, smallest, highest chance to hit, etc.
  • When STO weapons do not all attack the same target, the above could be in order of closest, largest, etc.
I am looking for feedback on this idea, or suggestions for alternatives, bearing in mind the questions I raised.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 05:51:35 AM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: STO Operations
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2018, 09:14:08 AM »
One option I could consider would be to treat them like PtS (Planet to Space) weapons in Emperor of the Fading Suns.

In EotFS, ground based weapons couldn't directly attack ships in orbit (it was assumed they'd just stay out of range/sight if they could), but would automatically fire when a space unit attempts to interact with the planet - either coming in to land troops or conduct orbital bombardment. I think this would be the option if you wanted STO weapons in Aurora to function on the ground combat time scale. It would limit the situations they'd be useful in (unable to support a fleet in orbit), but also have some advantages (they could get away with powerful, low charge rate lasers since they'd be firing once every 3 hours, and they couldn't just be picked off like ships using the naval targeting window, but would have to be targeted through orbital bombardment). This would also set up the situation where it was feasible for ships to conduct ground bombardment without wiping out all STO weapons first, since they'd be taking 1 round of fire for 1 round of bombardment instead of 3 hours worth of fire.

How I would see it working is that ships would have an additional order option with regards to planets - one for providing orbital fire support to FFD units, and one for "Bombard STO Weapons." During a ground combat round STO weapons would fire on any ships that were either landing troops, bombarding STO weapons, or providing orbital fire support, then any surviving ships would carry out those orders. If going with this, I would probably make drop ships take one ground combat increment to drop troops - even drop ships should be vulnerable to STO weapons, and it doesn't really have to represent an actual three hours so much as moving into position to drop troops and then the STO weapons firing at the drop ships as they race in. The bonus of using drop ships instead of normal transport would be a single combat increment and that the troops all get unloaded at the same time and can't be attacked piecemeal.

The other option would be the current method of having them function sort of like ships, on a naval combat time scale. I'd suggest that either player directed targeting or completely automated would be the way to go - I think the player trying to set rules for what target to pick would get complex fast, there's just too many variables for it to be user friendly to set up a list of targeting priorities. Possibly both - players could specify targets for STO weapons but if they don't they fire on any ships firing on them first, random targets second.

If you do go for automated targeting, I think it's only fair to make it automated the other way around, too. STO weapons on a planet could be considered hidden (just showing up as normal ground forces) except when firing, and weapons on ships could gain a new point defense setting - "Suppress Planetary Fire" or something like that. STO weapons would attempt to fire (randomly or automated targeting priorities of some sort) at ships in range, and all weapons set to Suppress Planetary Fire would attempt to fire back at all STO weapons that fired that increment. Their sensor would only need to turn on while firing, assuming automated targeting. An option to have STO weapons hold their fire would be useful there (possibly just having them set on rear instead of support) - it would mean you could conceal their existence until you wanted to have them fire.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 09:38:26 AM by Bremen »
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: STO Operations
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2018, 09:19:13 AM »
In terms of game physics/engineering/playability, why are STO weapons systems (including/especially sensors) any different from ship-based systems?  I think you should follow your core principle of "if I can put this weapons system on platform x, then why can't I put it on y" very closely.

If I follow through on this the following consistency questions arise:

1)  Why shouldn't an active sensor be vehicle mounted (if small) or static (if big)?
2)  What's wrong with a response of "too bad - so sad - can't be justified by Aurora physics" when players complain that the range of their active sensor is too short to allow them to acquire and fire when a spaceship does a rapid fly-by?  (Something I just thought of - Aurora sensors don't have line-of-sight requirements, so active sensors can still target a spaceship below the horizon/on the other side of the planet.)  This was the response for years when people wanted specialized weapons systems to put on fighters (to be clear, that was a neutral observation, not a complaint).
3)  Why are ground-based active sensors limited to resolution 1?  That would mitigate the range problem a lot for large spaceships.
4)  Why aren't ground-based weapons designed exactly the same way naval weapons are designed?  (Possibly with some alternative [EDIT] tech tracks [/EDIT] for things like magazines to represent vehicle hauled missiles, although even there a patriot battery looks an awful lot like a box launcher.)
5)  Why not simply allow the put a CIWS system in some STO units and "regular" weapons systems in others.
6)  Why not allow ground-based missile systems?

I think that where this leads is:
A) The ghost of PDCs comes back as a ground unit.  I think that an STO unit should show up as a formation(?) (that can have mobile and/or static elements) - the formation could then be the equivalent of a ship in terms of user interface.  Formation might not be right term here - I mean a grouping of elements that isn't necessarily highest in the chain of command.  Maybe the STO system becomes HQ-centric - there's a special HQ that acts like a spaceship's bridge, and that's the thing that binds the weapons systems, magazines, and sensors.  Essentially, PDCs turn into an HQ.

B) Players use the naval technology/systems development mechanism to design STO systems (sensors, energy weapons, missile launchers, magazines,CIWS).  There are probably separate "ground based" tracks for portability and reload efficiency. 

C) There might be a "CIWS control truck" that can meld the individual components (sensor+weapon+computer) of a CIWS into a sub-formation that can be attached to any formation (not just an STO formation).  Note that this might feed back into changes in how CIWS is considered in ship design.

D) The rules of STO combat follow "regular order" :) in all ways.  An STO HQ essentially acts as a space system on space system timescales.

E)  Active sensors and fire control are probably going to generally be too big to be mobile, so there's going to be a lot of static stuff.

F)  This brings up the question of armor for static units, which begins to circle back to PDCs.

G)  In terms of the original Aurora concept, that planets are tough nuts to crack, I think the general philosophy should be the same as 19th century coastal forts: the ground is a very stable and tough weapons platform that can be used for area denial.

H)  The naval crewing requirements will translate into manpower requirements in the STO units.

I)  From a coding/design point of view, this minimizes the amount of big-bang rewrite/introduce a bunch of new set of rules.  This is good both because it cuts time-to-release and (probably more importantly) it cuts back on the potential for inconsistency between the two rules sets.

There are probably more, but I can't think of them at the moment....

John
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 09:21:50 AM by sloanjh »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: STO Operations
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2018, 09:39:59 AM »
I probably didn't make it clear but the STO weapons are not any different from ship-based systems.

1) The weapon is a normal weapon designed for use in warships and the cost/size/ minerals are the same.
2) The active sensor uses the normal sensor design rules. It is resolution 1 so it can shoot at anything. Cost/size/ minerals are the same. Range is the same as ship-based.
3) The beam fire control uses the normal beam fire control rules. Costs are halved with the rationale that it is intended to control a single weapon.
4) A reactor is designed using the normal rules to power the weapon. Cost/size/ minerals are the same.

The active sensor range isn't a problem. For the Commonwealth with Strength 21 and EM 11 tech, a 0.1 HS resolution 1 sensor has a range of 2.7m km.

My only question here is how to control their targeting. Automatic or manual.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: STO Operations
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2018, 09:53:24 AM »
I want STO weapons to function on naval timescales as part of naval combat. Their main function is to counter planetary assault, prevent orbital bombardment and interdict fighters moving to and from the planet. Warships will be able to directly target STO units once they fire (in effect they will be detected as a separate target from normal ground forces once they fire).

I will tackle the orbit-to-surface next, which is easier because the whole naval fire control situation is well-defined. First though, I need to determine how the STO units handle target assignments.

It's also worth pointing out that while ground combat takes place every three hours, this is intended as a summation of all the events in those three hours, not a situation where everybody fires once every three hours. Orbital bombardment support represents ships firing when required during that period, rather than either continual combat or a three-hour cycle. Slow-firing weapons will be penalised when used for orbital bombardment support.
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: STO Operations
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2018, 09:57:26 AM »
I want STO weapons to function on naval timescales as part of naval combat. Their main function is to counter planetary assault, prevent orbital bombardment and interdict fighters moving to and from the planet. Warships will be able to directly target STO units once they fire (in effect they will be detected as a separate target from normal ground forces once they fire).

If this is the case then I think STO weapons have to be player directed. Having ships able to directly target STO weapons but not the other way around would be an inherent asymmetry that would be basically impossible to keep balanced.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: STO Operations
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2018, 10:02:10 AM »
I want STO weapons to function on naval timescales as part of naval combat. Their main function is to counter planetary assault, prevent orbital bombardment and interdict fighters moving to and from the planet. Warships will be able to directly target STO units once they fire (in effect they will be detected as a separate target from normal ground forces once they fire).

If this is the case then I think STO weapons have to be player directed. Having ships able to directly target STO weapons but not the other way around would be an inherent asymmetry that would be basically impossible to keep balanced.

That was my first thought. However, that puts STO at a disadvantage because they would have to wait until the increment after a ship is directed before they can fire at it. Given how briefly a ship may be in range that could be a problem. With automated targeting, they could fire in the same increment, effectively giving them an extra round of fire. This could be in those situation where the detection takes place close to maximum range, or maybe because several ships are holding out of range and you may not target the right one if you try to guess. Conversely, ships are actually firing at a group of targets (STO weapons), not individual targets, because they are shooting at the element, not the units.
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: STO Operations
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2018, 10:19:04 AM »
I want STO weapons to function on naval timescales as part of naval combat. Their main function is to counter planetary assault, prevent orbital bombardment and interdict fighters moving to and from the planet. Warships will be able to directly target STO units once they fire (in effect they will be detected as a separate target from normal ground forces once they fire).

If this is the case then I think STO weapons have to be player directed. Having ships able to directly target STO weapons but not the other way around would be an inherent asymmetry that would be basically impossible to keep balanced.

That was my first thought. However, that puts STO at a disadvantage because they would have to wait until the increment after a ship is directed before they can fire at it. Given how briefly a ship may be in range that could be a problem. With automated targeting, they could fire in the same increment, effectively giving them an extra round of fire. This could be in those situation where the detection takes place close to maximum range, or maybe because several ships are holding out of range and you may not target the right one if you try to guess. Conversely, ships are actually firing at a group of targets (STO weapons), not individual targets, because they are shooting at the element, not the units.

I'd suggest making it so ships can only target STO weapons if they're in orbit and not moving, then.

Or other ways of giving STO weapons a range bonus but that hits up against the 5 light second limit.

Maybe just halving (or other multiplier) the range of ships firing on ground units? They're awfully small targets to be hitting from beyond the moon's orbit, after all.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 10:24:27 AM by Bremen »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: STO Operations
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2018, 10:35:43 AM »
I want STO weapons to function on naval timescales as part of naval combat. Their main function is to counter planetary assault, prevent orbital bombardment and interdict fighters moving to and from the planet. Warships will be able to directly target STO units once they fire (in effect they will be detected as a separate target from normal ground forces once they fire).

If this is the case then I think STO weapons have to be player directed. Having ships able to directly target STO weapons but not the other way around would be an inherent asymmetry that would be basically impossible to keep balanced.

That was my first thought. However, that puts STO at a disadvantage because they would have to wait until the increment after a ship is directed before they can fire at it. Given how briefly a ship may be in range that could be a problem. With automated targeting, they could fire in the same increment, effectively giving them an extra round of fire. This could be in those situation where the detection takes place close to maximum range, or maybe because several ships are holding out of range and you may not target the right one if you try to guess. Conversely, ships are actually firing at a group of targets (STO weapons), not individual targets, because they are shooting at the element, not the units.

I'd suggest making it so ships can only target STO weapons if they're in orbit and not moving, then.

Or other ways of giving STO weapons a range bonus but that hits up against the 5 light second limit.

Maybe just halving (or other multiplier) the range of ships firing on ground units? They're awfully small targets to be hitting from beyond the moon's orbit, after all.

It is already difficult for ships to hit STO weapons, particularly in certain terrain, so I don't want to make it even harder. As it is, a fully fortified STO in jungle mountain terrain will be hit 1 time in 144 by a ship without crew or commander bonuses.

My main concern is how to avoid the 1 round delay associated with manual targeting for the STOs. That isn't a problem for ships because they can set their target and then move into range. In situations with late-detected targets, or multiple-potential targets, STO have delayed reactions. It is like similar to manually targeting point defence. Auto-targeting solves the problem and also makes managing STOs much easier for the player.
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: STO Operations
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2018, 10:41:50 AM »
It is already difficult for ships to hit STO weapons, particularly in certain terrain, so I don't want to make it even harder. As it is, a fully fortified STO in jungle mountain terrain will be hit 1 time in 144 by a ship without crew or commander bonuses.

My main concern is how to avoid the 1 round delay associated with manual targeting for the STOs. That isn't a problem for ships because they can set their target and then move into range. In situations with late-detected targets, or multiple-potential targets, STO have delayed reactions. It is like similar to manually targeting point defence. Auto-targeting solves the problem and also makes managing STOs much easier for the player.

Halving the range wouldn't make the weapons any less accurate if being fired from orbit, it would just make it harder to try to snipe at them by ducking in and out of range. That said, it would still leave it possible to conduct a general bombardment by ducking in and out of range, and I think powerful STO weapons should be able to stop a small force from conducting a general bombardment (without missiles, at least).

I still feel that the best solution is to make it so both sides have automated targeting, and would urge you to at least spend some time thinking about it. However, if you're set on avoiding that, and also set on automated targeting for STO weapons, why not both? Make it so STO weapons can be given manual targeting orders the same as ships, but also given an autofire order that will make them fire on any hostile ship in range. That will also mean players can avoid managing STOs if they don't want to but avoid the problem of exploiting the targeting rules to trick the STO units into firing suboptimally.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: STO Operations
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2018, 11:38:24 AM »
It is already difficult for ships to hit STO weapons, particularly in certain terrain, so I don't want to make it even harder. As it is, a fully fortified STO in jungle mountain terrain will be hit 1 time in 144 by a ship without crew or commander bonuses.

My main concern is how to avoid the 1 round delay associated with manual targeting for the STOs. That isn't a problem for ships because they can set their target and then move into range. In situations with late-detected targets, or multiple-potential targets, STO have delayed reactions. It is like similar to manually targeting point defence. Auto-targeting solves the problem and also makes managing STOs much easier for the player.

Halving the range wouldn't make the weapons any less accurate if being fired from orbit, it would just make it harder to try to snipe at them by ducking in and out of range. That said, it would still leave it possible to conduct a general bombardment by ducking in and out of range, and I think powerful STO weapons should be able to stop a small force from conducting a general bombardment (without missiles, at least).

I still feel that the best solution is to make it so both sides have automated targeting, and would urge you to at least spend some time thinking about it. However, if you're set on avoiding that, and also set on automated targeting for STO weapons, why not both? Make it so STO weapons can be given manual targeting orders the same as ships, but also given an autofire order that will make them fire on any hostile ship in range. That will also mean players can avoid managing STOs if they don't want to but avoid the problem of exploiting the targeting rules to trick the STO units into firing suboptimally.

+1

I think there's some asymmetry between ships and STO that you're worried about that I'm missing, and I think it has to do with ducking in and out of orbit.  If so, I agree with Bremen that allowing both modes (automatic and manual) seems to make sense, with the slight modifier that automatic mode would be a secondary order (similar to conditional/secondary movement orders in ships) - if the manually selected target is available it fires at that, otherwise it uses the automatic mode to decide if/what to fire at.

To make sure I've got your concern correct, let me try to formulate what you're worried about in pure ship-to-ship terms:

Let's say I've got one ship A that is very powerful but only has one fire control (and so can only target one enemy ship at a time).  It's chasing (using follow command) two ships B1 and B2, which are both targeting A, moving at the same speed (but have higher max speed), in two different TG, and slightly out of range (same weapons range on both sides).  Let's say it's targeting (and following) B1.  The B commander could give B2 an order to slow down enough to drop it into range and update by 5 seconds.  Since A is targeting B1 (which is still out of range), it doesn't get to fire.  Since B2 is targeting A, it does get to fire.  For the next increment B2 speeds up enough to get back out of range of A, resulting in B2 having gotten a free shot at A.  Is this what you're concerned about?  It's the ship-to-ship equivalent of B2 having quickly ducked in and out of orbit.

In the case above, it seems like the solution is to give A the potential for having a secondary firing command of "fire at any target within some criteria" (similar to your automated orders).  The fact that it's secondary means that it avoids the "duck in and out" exploit while still allowing manual fire control allocation if the entire B task group comes into range and sticks around to fight it out.

John
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: STO Operations
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2018, 11:41:48 AM »
In the case above, it seems like the solution is to give A the potential for having a secondary firing command of "fire at any target within some criteria" (similar to your automated orders).  The fact that it's secondary means that it avoids the "duck in and out" exploit while still allowing manual fire control allocation if the entire B task group comes into range and sticks around to fight it out.

And the other option would be just to accept the retargeting delay and accept that 1/2 the time A will guess wrong as to whether B1 or B2 is the next one that will zip into range.  There are good arguments in favor of that - numerical superiority and higher agility against a fixed target should make a difference.  The fact that every now and then the defenders would guess right means their fire would be diluted, not absent.

John
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: STO Operations
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2018, 11:45:26 AM »
I think there's some asymmetry between ships and STO that you're worried about that I'm missing, and I think it has to do with ducking in and out of orbit.  If so, I agree with Bremen that allowing both modes (automatic and manual) seems to make sense, with the slight modifier that automatic mode would be a secondary order (similar to conditional/secondary movement orders in ships) - if the manually selected target is available it fires at that, otherwise it uses the automatic mode to decide if/what to fire at.

To make sure I've got your concern correct, let me try to formulate what you're worried about in pure ship-to-ship terms:

Let's say I've got one ship A that is very powerful but only has one fire control (and so can only target one enemy ship at a time).  It's chasing (using follow command) two ships B1 and B2, which are both targeting A, moving at the same speed (but have higher max speed), in two different TG, and slightly out of range (same weapons range on both sides).  Let's say it's targeting (and following) B1.  The B commander could give B2 an order to slow down enough to drop it into range and update by 5 seconds.  Since A is targeting B1 (which is still out of range), it doesn't get to fire.  Since B2 is targeting A, it does get to fire.  For the next increment B2 speeds up enough to get back out of range of A, resulting in B2 having gotten a free shot at A.  Is this what you're concerned about?  It's the ship-to-ship equivalent of B2 having quickly ducked in and out of orbit.

In the case above, it seems like the solution is to give A the potential for having a secondary firing command of "fire at any target within some criteria" (similar to your automated orders).  The fact that it's secondary means that it avoids the "duck in and out" exploit while still allowing manual fire control allocation if the entire B task group comes into range and sticks around to fight it out.

Yes, that's a good summary. Although B in this case could have a dozen ships and lots of patience.

I think I agree with both of you that allowing both manual and automatic modes makes the most sense.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: STO Operations
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2018, 12:17:57 PM »
I want STO weapons to function on naval timescales as part of naval combat. Their main function is to counter planetary assault, prevent orbital bombardment and interdict fighters moving to and from the planet. Warships will be able to directly target STO units once they fire (in effect they will be detected as a separate target from normal ground forces once they fire).

If this is the case then I think STO weapons have to be player directed. Having ships able to directly target STO weapons but not the other way around would be an inherent asymmetry that would be basically impossible to keep balanced.
I don't think this is as much of a balance problem as it seems at first glance. I vote for automatic firing, like PD, for STO weapons. The attacker can overwhelm the STO defences with cheap flying bricks, but they can already do that against missile-armed PDC defenders too. And in real life, target acquisition is a real issue, you can't always select perfectly what you want to shoot at.

Of course, allowing both, if feasible, would be ideal.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: STO Operations
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2018, 12:27:17 PM »
I don't think this is as much of a balance problem as it seems at first glance. I vote for automatic firing, like PD, for STO weapons. The attacker can overwhelm the STO defences with cheap flying bricks, but they can already do that against missile-armed PDC defenders too. And in real life, target acquisition is a real issue, you can't always select perfectly what you want to shoot at.

Of course, allowing both, if feasible, would be ideal.

Manual will be a little messy, as I will have to create a new targeting system to replace the fire controls, weapon assignments, etc. that the combat code currently uses and create a targeting UI on the ground combat window. I'll probably add automatic first and then manual later.
 

 

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