Author Topic: Return PDCs please  (Read 11462 times)

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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2020, 03:19:27 PM »
PDC were removed by Steve as HE found them to not work the way he originally wanted them to work from a mechanical perspective. In VB6 they were essentially a space structure from a mechanical perspective and was thus poorly integrated into the ground game. Ground unit could not defend them unless they were inside them for example and the PDC was completely detached from the ground fighting.


In C# then STO weapons in static mounts is sort of weapons mounted into the ground in a base. Each weapons is mounted into its own base. They often are part of a formation that can be AA weapons and even some infantry to defend them.


There is nothing from an immersive perspective that a PDC does that you can't get from the new mechanic. It is just a slight change how these weapons integrate into the game. I don't see the point in even trying to use real world analogue to either PDC or the current implementations and they both do the same thing just with slightly different mechanics.


So they were not really removed as replaced with a different mechanic, one that is more coherent as a singe planetary defence mechanic.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 03:44:15 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 
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Offline amram

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2020, 05:41:37 PM »
It is my suggestion.. If you don't like it you can ignore it..  Giving me multiple and contradictory answers
does not help at all.    If Steve does not want them thats fine.  I don't play 'imagine' with one thing for it
to be another.

Here is the unambiguous word from Steve himself:
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg105772#msg105772

Quote
They will be replaced by a much more detailed ground-combat system, including ground units capable of engaging ships within energy range of the planet.


PDC's required exceptions to rules, a big focus of C# was making all entities obey all rules rather than giving them exceptions in order to exist.  It was an exception to the rules for ships to exist in atmosphere, without engines, with more armor, with special FC, when they are supposed to be PDC's and not ships.

Everything a PDC could do, ground units can do, and more, its what some of the types were explicitly made to do, replace the PDC's usefulness with ground units to do the same things.

If you want to engage units in space, you want units with an STO component.  If you want to defend against missiles, you want a units with a CIWS component.  If you want a place to store troops safe from orbital attack, they do that on their own now with fortification.


If you want an all in one "PDC like" unit, you have two options, ship or station, built to be an orbital weapons platform.  This will not subject you to the beam's in atmosphere penalties, nor will any loaded troops defend the surface as they will be in orbit, since both of those were special exceptions for ships that were not ships(PDC's).
 

Offline plasticpanzers (OP)

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2020, 09:52:00 PM »
Wow... I just cannot seem to make folks understand I liked PDCs.  I was happy with them.  The concept now
is a work around, not a solution.  Again if you don't like my suggestion why do some of you keep trying to
show me how great the new system is compared to the old?   There are multiple reasons I prefer the entire
entity of  PDC over components scattered on the surface.   From a Sci Fi or Historical Earth perspective the
new way is just a work around and more complex.  There is a difference from having Fort Apache than having
hundreds of wooden poles each with a soldier on them scattered around a field.   Again... if you do not like
my suggestion then don't respond.  Quit being so defensive.  I am not attacking Steve's work.  Its the concept
that I find hard to except, but that is my issue.
 

Offline SpaceMarine

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2020, 09:53:57 PM »
To be fair, you did post this on a public forum, they have every right to respond with their own opinions, if you give an opinion so can they thats how it works.
 

Offline Vasious

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2020, 11:08:50 PM »
I do miss planetary missile Launchers, but haven't really had a chance to explore alternative options.

Static unit formations with Construction etc  seem to be a good analogue for bases
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2020, 11:48:13 PM »
Related to the PDC discussion, I have noticed that predesigned ship classes will include stationary military bases. Shove some ground support weapons and marines on that and you have yourself a PDC.
" Why is this godforsaken hellhole worth dying for? "
". . .  We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like.  But we can assume this.  They stand for everything we don't stand for.  Also they told me you guys look like dorks. "
"Stop exploding, you cowards.  "
 

Offline plasticpanzers (OP)

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2020, 01:11:47 AM »
I think this suggestion has come down to this:... I want to play Football with an oblong ball...... you want to play Football but with a round ball.
By the way...my Football is better..... ;D
 

Offline TMaekler

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2020, 01:20:37 AM »
Simple solution here: Wait for Quasar4x  ;D
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2020, 07:08:25 AM »
I think this suggestion has come down to this:... I want to play Football with an oblong ball...... you want to play Football but with a round ball.
By the way...my Football is better..... ;D

Not sure that is a good analogue as the old PDC was a different mechanic for different ground combat game-play. The old ground combat mechanic of VB6 was very different from the one in C#.

PDC was a completely self contained entity and did not interact with the ground combat at all. It was essentially a space structure with some special rules... in my opinion they made little sense from a logic perspective.

A Static STO mount where you have used construction units to fortify them to max fortification levels make very logical sense as a planetary weapon from an immersive perspective.

Building some arbitrary box with armour and then add beam weapons and some troops does not... that is more like a space station and not a ground facility. You still can do that by the way... you just don't get the extra range on the beam controls.

I simply don't agree with your original statement in the OP... it makes zero sense to use the PDC as a concept from VB6 in C#.

Now... I do think there should be some manner of differences between defending and attacking forces in C# aurora, but Steve have at least acknowledged this issue so we might see some changes to this eventually.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2020, 07:16:43 AM »
I think this suggestion has come down to this:... I want to play Football with an oblong ball...... you want to play Football but with a round ball.
By the way...my Football is better..... ;D

What's strange is that what you describe as your ideal of a PDC is far better modeled by C#'s ground forces than it ever was VB6's PDCs.

For example, in C#, you can have:

DHQ North American Aerospace Defence (NORAD), a fortified headquarters complex dug into Cheyenne Mountain, the centerpiece of an elaborate orbital defense network

with attachments

3rd Orbital Defense Brigade, a series of enormous lasers buried deep beneath classified locations in the Rocky Mountains, using concealed firing shutters.

56th, 57th, and 58th Garrison Regiments, each consisting of innumerable pillboxes, hidden heavy weapons, and anti-air emplacements
22nd Area Defense Regiment, a supporting formation of heavy anti-air weaponry and emplaced artillery

And the way that actually plays out in the game is as a well defended and dug in deterrent to any assault whether via ground or space, since the STO weapons are hidden


Whereas in VB6 you have an easily-identified immobile ship called NORAD which will inevitably be nuked out of existence or obliterated easily by meson fire.  In no gameplay sense does it resemble, for example, the PDCs visualized in the Starfire book Crusade.





 
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Offline Adrinus

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2020, 07:31:38 AM »
Having random turrets in fields is actually sci-fi. 

Isn't that like, a handful of episodes from Stargate? They find a race that's super advanced, and with like 8 turrets they can cover their whole planet and take down any ship that shows up in range.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2020, 08:07:00 AM »
Having random turrets in fields is actually sci-fi. 

Isn't that like, a handful of episodes from Stargate? They find a race that's super advanced, and with like 8 turrets they can cover their whole planet and take down any ship that shows up in range.

The Tollan Ion Cannon :)

https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Ion_cannon
 
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Offline plasticpanzers (OP)

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2020, 09:28:14 AM »
El Scorpio Planetary Defense Center in Southwest US (book: Sleeping Planet).   I shall nail my flag to my mainmast..
Do starships have mainmasts?  I am amazed at the amount of feedback on this.   I am sure I will find eventually
that the new systems does replace the PDC but they are alot easier to design and it takes alot of micromanagement
its seems for the new ground unit based units.   Time will tell for me.  Ah flags... I forgot the Monitor and Merrimac
(Tour of the Merrimac series).  They have flags in space with lights shining on them.
 

Offline Adrinus

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2020, 11:41:04 AM »
You know... I've been thinking it over... Why not both? I'd like to also be able to make "Hive City" type places for the full 40k experience some day.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Hive_City
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 11:43:56 AM by Adrinus »
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Return PDCs please
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2020, 12:14:37 PM »
You know... I've been thinking it over... Why not both?


Programming time.

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Maybe sometime in 2025 we might get it.