Gauss turret PD vs 10cm Rail - Dispelling common myths with math

[Pedroig]

Huh. That would also mean that with proper intel, you could propably design your salvos to cause maximum overkill.

As a basic rule this means that salvos should always be prime numbers...  Pretty much guarantees an extra gun/turret assignment by the BFC.  Makes one wonder what if mixing turret sizes under same BFC would counter.  Making 1-2-3-5 shot turrets "ultimate" combination makers...

@Iceranger appreciate the on the spot real testing whilst I'm on remote and away from game. 

[smoelf]

Huh. That would also mean that with proper intel, you could propably design your salvos to cause maximum overkill.

As a basic rule this means that salvos should always be prime numbers...  Pretty much guarantees an extra gun/turret assignment by the BFC.  Makes one wonder what if mixing turret sizes under same BFC would counter.  Making 1-2-3-5 shot turrets "ultimate" combination makers...

@Iceranger appreciate the on the spot real testing whilst I'm on remote and away from game.

Wouldn't that depend on the gauss ROF tech? If gauss ROF is 5, then a single, full size gauss turret would cause max overkill (by requiring two turrets) with 6-missile salvos. A triple, full size gauss turret could reliably deal with 15 missiles, so a 16-missile salvo would cause overkill.

That's why intel on gauss ROF and turret composition could be utilized to devastating effect.

[Graham]

It also depends on to hit chance? In reality I find it unlikely Gauss turrets are going to have a 100% kill chance against enemy missiles, full size or not.

[Energyz]

It also depends on to hit chance? In reality I find it unlikely Gauss turrets are going to have a 100% kill chance against enemy missiles, full size or not.

that 100% is multiplied by the standard hit chance

[smoelf]

It also depends on to hit chance? In reality I find it unlikely Gauss turrets are going to have a 100% kill chance against enemy missiles, full size or not.

Most likely. I would be curious to see how this plays out in an actual game, but for my speculations I was only going by Iceranger's test. There a single gauss turret with ROF 6 is assumed to be able to deal with six missiles, so the game assigns two turrets to the same salvo to reliably deal with a 7-missile salvo - causing maximum overkill.

[Energyz]

It also depends on to hit chance? In reality I find it unlikely Gauss turrets are going to have a 100% kill chance against enemy missiles, full size or not.

Most likely. I would be curious to see how this plays out in an actual game, but for my speculations I was only going by Iceranger's test. There a single gauss turret with ROF 6 is assumed to be able to deal with six missiles, so the game assigns two turrets to the same salvo to reliably deal with a 7-missile salvo - causing maximum overkill.

Did you see my thread? http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=11325.msg131578#msg131578

[Pedroig]

Huh. That would also mean that with proper intel, you could propably design your salvos to cause maximum overkill.

As a basic rule this means that salvos should always be prime numbers...  Pretty much guarantees an extra gun/turret assignment by the BFC.  Makes one wonder what if mixing turret sizes under same BFC would counter.  Making 1-2-3-5 shot turrets "ultimate" combination makers...

@Iceranger appreciate the on the spot real testing whilst I'm on remote and away from game.

Wouldn't that depend on the gauss ROF tech? If gauss ROF is 5, then a single, full size gauss turret would cause max overkill (by requiring two turrets) with 6-missile salvos. A triple, full size gauss turret could reliably deal with 15 missiles, so a 16-missile salvo would cause overkill.

That's why intel on gauss ROF and turret composition could be utilized to devastating effect.

ROF plays a part, but that is why prime number salvos are important.  7 salvo will require a minimum of 2 ROF 4 or 5 turrets and 3 ROF 3 turret.  Next up would be 11.  Continually using prime numbers for salvo size will guarantee "wastage" one way or another.  Having 32 shots fired at a 31 salvo or 23 shots fired at a 37 salvo are effective in different ways, either through wasted shots or leakage.  And that is only considering 100% hit rates, as soon as that dips wasted shots and leakage will both increase.

[Iceranger]

It also depends on to hit chance? In reality I find it unlikely Gauss turrets are going to have a 100% kill chance against enemy missiles, full size or not.

Most likely. I would be curious to see how this plays out in an actual game, but for my speculations I was only going by Iceranger's test. There a single gauss turret with ROF 6 is assumed to be able to deal with six missiles, so the game assigns two turrets to the same salvo to reliably deal with a 7-missile salvo - causing maximum overkill.

I don't think the game 'assigned' 2 guns in the first place. I think the engagement goes by the FC picking one (the largest) salvo, pick a gun and do the interception. If a salvo is not completely destroyed, pick a 2nd gun and fire, until the salvo is destroyed. At that point, pick the next salvo, and pick the next gun to repeat the above.

So for non 100% accuracies, larger turrets always have higher 'expected hits' than smaller ones, thus having larger granularity in the process, thus potentially wasting more shots than smaller turrets.

[Jorgen_CAB]

I don't think the game 'assigned' 2 guns in the first place. I think the engagement goes by the FC picking one (the largest) salvo, pick a gun and do the interception. If a salvo is not completely destroyed, pick a 2nd gun and fire, until the salvo is destroyed. At that point, pick the next salvo, and pick the next gun to repeat the above.

So for non 100% accuracies, larger turrets always have higher 'expected hits' than smaller ones, thus having larger granularity in the process, thus potentially wasting more shots than smaller turrets.

This is how I suspect that it works too so depending on the environment you might be better of with smaller turrets. But if you repeatedly get attacked with 50+ salvos then larger turrets might still be better as there are some wight savings and with armour also make the ship more difficult to destroy... but in general smaller turrets is better due to how salvos and engagements work... which is kind of sad. 

Large turrets for anti-ship work with several guns are pretty good though.

I'm going to test how the game assign the turrets for fun...

***Edit***
Sorry... did not see you already did the test... I got the same results obviously.

It is a bit sad as the smaller the turret the better the performance despite weight savings.

[Iceranger]

I don't think the game 'assigned' 2 guns in the first place. I think the engagement goes by the FC picking one (the largest) salvo, pick a gun and do the interception. If a salvo is not completely destroyed, pick a 2nd gun and fire, until the salvo is destroyed. At that point, pick the next salvo, and pick the next gun to repeat the above.

So for non 100% accuracies, larger turrets always have higher 'expected hits' than smaller ones, thus having larger granularity in the process, thus potentially wasting more shots than smaller turrets.

This is how I suspect that it works too so depending on the environment you might be better of with smaller turrets. But if you repeatedly get attacked with 50+ salvos then larger turrets might still be better as there are some wight savings and with armour also make the ship more difficult to destroy... but in general smaller turrets is better due to how salvos and engagements work... which is kind of sad. 

Large turrets for anti-ship work with several guns are pretty good though.

I'm going to test how the game assign the turrets for fun...

***Edit***
Sorry... did not see you already did the test... I got the same results obviously.

It is a bit sad as the smaller the turret the better the performance despite weight savings.

Smaller turrets don't save weight though (not counting crew/engineering and such) I think? You need more smaller turrets to have the same average, the tonnage of the guns/turrets are the same for the same theoretical shot down. Smaller turrets are more flexible though since they are small

[DFNewb]

I don't think the game 'assigned' 2 guns in the first place. I think the engagement goes by the FC picking one (the largest) salvo, pick a gun and do the interception. If a salvo is not completely destroyed, pick a 2nd gun and fire, until the salvo is destroyed. At that point, pick the next salvo, and pick the next gun to repeat the above.

So for non 100% accuracies, larger turrets always have higher 'expected hits' than smaller ones, thus having larger granularity in the process, thus potentially wasting more shots than smaller turrets.

This is how I suspect that it works too so depending on the environment you might be better of with smaller turrets. But if you repeatedly get attacked with 50+ salvos then larger turrets might still be better as there are some wight savings and with armour also make the ship more difficult to destroy... but in general smaller turrets is better due to how salvos and engagements work... which is kind of sad. 

Large turrets for anti-ship work with several guns are pretty good though.

I'm going to test how the game assign the turrets for fun...

***Edit***
Sorry... did not see you already did the test... I got the same results obviously.

It is a bit sad as the smaller the turret the better the performance despite weight savings.

Smaller turrets don't save weight though (not counting crew/engineering and such) I think? You need more smaller turrets to have the same average, the tonnage of the guns/turrets are the same for the same theoretical shot down. Smaller turrets are more flexible though since they are small

Kinda curious how MSP plays a role in this due to weapon failure. Do the smaller turrets take 1/6 of the MSP to repair?

[Iceranger]

I don't think the game 'assigned' 2 guns in the first place. I think the engagement goes by the FC picking one (the largest) salvo, pick a gun and do the interception. If a salvo is not completely destroyed, pick a 2nd gun and fire, until the salvo is destroyed. At that point, pick the next salvo, and pick the next gun to repeat the above.

So for non 100% accuracies, larger turrets always have higher 'expected hits' than smaller ones, thus having larger granularity in the process, thus potentially wasting more shots than smaller turrets.

This is how I suspect that it works too so depending on the environment you might be better of with smaller turrets. But if you repeatedly get attacked with 50+ salvos then larger turrets might still be better as there are some wight savings and with armour also make the ship more difficult to destroy... but in general smaller turrets is better due to how salvos and engagements work... which is kind of sad. 

Large turrets for anti-ship work with several guns are pretty good though.

I'm going to test how the game assign the turrets for fun...

***Edit***
Sorry... did not see you already did the test... I got the same results obviously.

It is a bit sad as the smaller the turret the better the performance despite weight savings.

Smaller turrets don't save weight though (not counting crew/engineering and such) I think? You need more smaller turrets to have the same average, the tonnage of the guns/turrets are the same for the same theoretical shot down. Smaller turrets are more flexible though since they are small

Kinda curious how MSP plays a role in this due to weapon failure. Do the smaller turrets take 1/6 of the MSP to repair?

seems to be proportional

[Father Tim]

Pedroig, Smoelf:

You mean shots.  Gauss ROF is always 5 (seconds).

"Gauss (1x6) ROF 5" is ONE gauss cannon that fires SIX shots every FIVE second interval.


Iceranger:

The fire control doesn't 'pick' -- the order is "fastest missiles move (largest salvo first), and this movement triggers Final Defensive Fire (if applicable), at which point the (numerically) first beam fire control fires all the shots of the (numerically) first beam weapon (or turret) and destroys (or not) X missiles.  If any missiles remain in this salvo, then the next weapon/turret fires all of its shots.  Repeat until no missiles (or no weapons) remain."

At which point the next largest salvo of that speed moves (or the largest salvo of the next fastest missiles) and the whole thing repeats until all missiles have moved.

[smoelf]

Pedroig, Smoelf:

You mean shots.  Gauss ROF is always 5 (seconds).

"Gauss (1x6) ROF 5" is ONE gauss cannon that fires SIX shots every FIVE second interval.

Yes, I know. I was referring to the 'Gauss Cannon Rate of Fire' tech line. I simply shortened it to ROF because that's how the game refers to it.

[Pedroig]

Pedroig, Smoelf:

You mean shots.  Gauss ROF is always 5 (seconds).

"Gauss (1x6) ROF 5" is ONE gauss cannon that fires SIX shots every FIVE second interval.

Yes, I know. I was referring to the 'Gauss Cannon Rate of Fire' tech line. I simply shortened it to ROF because that's how the game refers to it.

IBID